Help I am getting leading in my barrel

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:01 am

Trying some Oregon Trail bullets in both my 357 and 44 mag and getting leading in the barrel after 5 shots. I have tried tried this load in both my handguns and leverguns. What may be causing this?

Load for the 357 is 5 grains of unique with a 158 SWC

44 load is 8.5 grains od unique with a 240 SWC

Thanks for your help

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:32 am

I just loaded up a couple hundred rounds of .38 Special using 4.3 grains of Unique under a 158-grain BBLRFP bullet cast by Valiant in AL. Haven't had time to shoot these yet, but it is awfully flose to your .357 load. Do you know how fast that one is booking along? The nominal viscosity for the loads I just did should be around 920 fps, which should not lead to leading, "should" being the operative word!

clubkey · Post by **clubkey** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:42 am

You may want to read this article Taken from the LASC index

Bullet BHN / "Minimum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)

The formula (from the pages of HandLoader Magazine) to determine at what pressure an alloy of given BHN will obturate the base of the bullet and seal the bore. If the bullet is too hard to obturate, gas cutting usually occurs on the base band on the non-driving side of the rifling and barrel leading is likely. Simply multiply the alloy BHN by 1,422.
Example: Alloy BHN of 12 multiplied by 1422 = 17,064. An alloy of 12 BHN should be used with a load that develops a "minimum" of 17,000 psi. Need more info on minimum / maximum alloy BHN? These Glen E. Fryxell articles explain alloy BHN in easy to understand language.

And this: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:42 am

Considering the velocity and alloy in the bullets I'd suspect that the bullets don't fit the bore well. This would be very possible in either Rossi or Marlin .44s of a certain period of manufacture and a certain available sized diameter from Oregon bullets. #2 would be some roughness in the bore. It could be other things but you don't really give us enough info.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:51 am

You bullets are too hard for the pressure of your loads. If they are bevel base, that makes things worse.

Store bought cast bullets in general are greatly inferior to proper home cast cullets. There are reasons for this, but that would be the subject matter for a small book.

The passing of Dry Creek Bullets is mourned by many people. Creeker was one of the few commercial casters who did it right. Bullshop up in Alaska is a custom caster who can also do it right.

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:58 am

What other questions could I answer? The bullets have been shot in a custom 44 mag, ruger blackhawk 3 screw and smith 19 also. I use a heavy crimp on the bullets. Also tried titegroup with the 44 and that did not help/
monte

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:59 am

Leading is most commonly caused by a bullet that is undersize for the bore and is too hard to obturate properly with light loads.

WCF3030 · Post by **WCF3030** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:10 am

Charles wrote:
The passing of Dry Creek Bullets is mourned by many people. Creeker was one of the few commercial casters who did it right. Bullshop up in Alaska is a custom caster who can also do it right.

Yes and Yes.

I use to email back and forth with Creeker, sometimes daily.
Bought several hundred of his 305gr .429 and 275gr .452, as well as a first rate education in casting.

Just before I started too cast I placed a few orders with the "Bullshop".
Top of the line as well.

I've shot a few thousand Oregon trail in .309 and .358, What I have found is they need to be loaded near the top of the max load.
My 38's work better with Bullseye.

tcomer · Post by **tcomer** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:58 am

I have 2 Rossi's and use the Oregon Trail bullets with light loads. The 357 has just a few flakes of lead after 100 rounds. The 44 is a different story. First 6" of the barrel leads and the rest seems clean. The 357 is loaded to minimum specs and the 44 is loaded somewhere between minimum 44 mag loads and 44 Special loads. I love both guns but the 44 gives me fits. It does shoot good if I do my part.

scr83jp · Post by **scr83jp** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:20 pm

www.gmdr.com oregon trail cowboy loads. www.uniquetek.com sells Dri-Slide Weapons Lubricant plus other items

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:34 pm

clean all copper residue from the barrels?

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:46 pm

I had some problems with leading in warm 9mm loads with bevel base cast bullets back in the 80s, and the problems went away when I started using those red wax gas checks. I got sheets of the stuff from someplace in the midwest, but can't recall the name of the guy.

Noah

JD2 · Post by **JD2** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:30 pm

Yes, too hard of bullet for your moderate pressure loads..

One thing that I have found that does help with this situation is to tumble lube the bullets with Lee Liquid Alox tumble lube. Just put a hundred or so of the bullets in a plastic container (Margerine container works great.). Squirt in some of the liquid alox. Put the lid on and gently roll the container around in your hands for a minute, then pour them out on some aluminum foil and let them dry for a couple of days. Then load them up.

The liquid alox lube seems to pretty much eliminate the type of leading you are getting. My own explanation is that the non-melting alox lube insulates the base and sides of the bullet for that fraction of a second that they are exposed to the hot powder gases, thus preventing gas cutting and flash melting of the bullet surface, but I have no proof that this is why the leading is eliminated. The extra lube doesn't hurt either.

Give it a try. I think you will find that it really works.....

ejc · Post by **ejc** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:49 pm

Noah Zark, they are called soft gas checks and they are sold by CF Ventures, 509 Harvey Drive, Bloomington IN 47401.

I bought another box from him last October and it sounded like he wouldn't be in business too much longer because he said that he only sold the 5 lb box now. That is the only size I have ever bought but I guess he sold them in smaller quantities at one time. The price was still $50.00 post paid.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:19 pm

ejc wrote:Noah Zark, they are called soft gas checks and they are sold by CF Ventures, 509 Harvey Drive, Bloomington IN 47401.

I bought another box from him last October and it sounded like he wouldn't be in business too much longer because he said that he only sold the 5 lb box now. That is the only size I have ever bought but I guess he sold them in smaller quantities at one time. The price was still $50.00 post paid.

That's him, THANK YOU!

I best be placing an order to get stocked up then. There was one particular load with Alberts bullets that leaded like a bugger and those wax sheets stopped the lead right now. And since I bought out an Alberts distributor's entire stock "back in the day" and still have over 27,000 bullets in green plastic boxes in 9mm, 38/357, 44, and 45, it's a worthwhile investment.

Noah

tcomer · Post by **tcomer** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:54 pm

I wondered about that Lee Liquid Alox. I'll have to give that a try. In my 30-30, I was having the opposite trouble in my light loads with the Laser Cast. 10grs of Unique would lead the barrel but the leading was all the way through. The less powder I used, the better it got. I've now settled on 7.5grs.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:13 pm

I had the same problem with O. T. Laser Cast bullets in my 44 mag Win. 94 that has had very few rounds through and my SS Super Blackhawk that has been shot alot. After 6 rounds I had lead in both guns. I was loading OT 240 grain bullets over 22.5 grains of 5744 (average speed was 1452 FPS). I incresed the load to 23.8 grains of 5744 and problem didn't go away in the Win. but it sure is alot better and I didn't see any lead in the Ruger. I am sure that the machining marks in the Win didn't help. I have not checked the speed with the new load.

When I called OT, they were not sure what the problem was, but wanted to know how I crimped the bullets. They have seen problems where people seat and crimp in the same operation. Something about the shoulders of the bullet breaking down. Since I use a Lee factory crimp die, that was not the problem. They were the ones that suggested kicking up the speed.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:27 pm

What JD2 said. I've been playing with 38 special and 45 auto
loads and lubing the bullets with LEE Alox. The leading is
MUCH reduced. Don't use too much - just a light coating is
all you need. I throw them in a little sandwich baggie and
squirt a little Alox in, then let them dry overnight on waxed
paper.

Curiousgb · Post by **Curiousgb** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:14 pm

I bought a box of the OT 44cal 240grn SWC's for my Puma. I didn't get any leading but I did run into a strange problem with keyholing. I made two loads , one with h110 and one with Unique. The H110 loads ran about 1500 or so and cut nice holes and a good group. The ones loaded with Unique, I think about 10grns ran about 1200 or 1300 if I remember correctly but they would keyhole. I haven't had time to see if upping the powder charge would fix the issue. But it makes sense.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:12 pm

There are many factors that can cause leading in a revolver.

Are the cylinder throats sized for lead bullets ? Many are not. If the throats are undersize the bullet will be swedged smaller be for it enters the forcing cone most revolvers have throats that are at barrel groove dimensions or smaller. They meet the SAMMI spec. for jacketed bullet use.

Is the forcing cone cut properly for lead bullets ? Many are not. If the forcing cone has sharp edges as it enters the rifling this will cause leading just forward of the forcing cone. Some have left the factory with no forcing cone.

Is the bullet of proper size for the barrel groove diameter ? Bullet should be .001"-.002" over this diameter. for light loads use a soft cast bullet 20/1 with a flat base under 1000fps.

Remember Rifle velocity's will be approx. 300 fps higher than the same load shot from a revolver.

I shoot different loads in my revolver and in my rifle in the same caliber & bullet weight.

What shoots in my Guns with no leading may lead yours with the same load.

Shooting lead is totally different than Jacketed.

I shoot lots of lead as a Cowboy Action Shooter. When I first started I ran into all the problems. Now I rarely see leading in my arms anymore.

My first mistake was pushing Laser-Cast bullets to fast out of my Marlin 94CB .357.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:56 am

about those wax gas checks, I remember seeing something similar in one of Paco Kelly's articles. He would cut acetate film out with a hole puncher, then glue the little circular films to the bullet base, and seat.

I guess it would keep the temperature of the bullet base down, might keep lead from melting.

One email I got from Mike at Mastercast he suggested trying a slower powder if you get leading, the fast powders burn hot and melt lead, a slower one may not.

I'm working with this problem too, it looks like the only leading I'm getting comes from a medium 10 gr 2400 load with a O.T. Lasercast 180 gr. I cleaned the bore to remove any copper and haven't seen any lead, but it's a little early to tell conclusively.

Keep posting on this please.