Thinking about .45/.454s...

[Old Ironsights]

For a couple of reasons that I won't get into (except an itch to shoot more BP) I am pondering a shift from .357 to .454/.45 Colt in both my short rifle and woods gun.

Outside of the fact that I have a metric Clapton of 2400, primers, bullets and molds for the .357, what would be the downside of going to, say, a .454 Super Blackhawk and a 20" Rossi in .454?

(Note, not an immediate swap-out, but a timed transition... and it appears that the primers and 2400 might cross over...)

[Griff]

For both, (45 Colt & 454 Casull), cases & lead/bullets will be more costly. Powder usage for both will also take a jump. Ya probably oughtn't hotrod the 454, but you can certainly warm up the 45 Colt in that pair.

[Old Ironsights]

For both, (45 Colt & 454 Casull), cases & lead/bullets will be more costly. Powder usage for both will also take a jump. Ya probably oughtn't hotrod the 454, but you can certainly warm up the 45 Colt in that pair.

One of the things I'm thinking about is the fact that a 250gr bullet over 45gr of BP is still a mighty reasonable loading for just about anything, including "no more smokeless" scenarios where .357 gets mighty wimpy mighty fast with BP... and on the .45 Colt side, I can use them in my ROA (more thump) and 1858 (less thump).

Also, 250gr RNL works good in the ACP too...

[Griff]

Yesterday... no, Wednesday, I reloaded the 31 rounds of .30-30 I shot up last Sat... and since I was in the shop I also 100 rounds of my 225 TC over a case of Goex "Cartridge" as "just-in-case extras" for an upcoming match. Afterwards, as I put 'em away, I looked at the 200 rounds I'd already loaded of the same earlier this year... I decided to take a round out of each box and make sure it was "ok". Yep, the 27.5 grains just "kissed" the base of these bullets and when fired, made a very satisfying sharp "crack"! Definitely NOT what most folks think of when they think of cowboy ammo! But still not what a compressed load sounds like!

[Pete44ru]

.

One of the nice things about .45/.454 hand & long guns is that very inexpensive shooting can be had with gallery loads - plain .454" or .457" round lead balls (commercial or cast) over mild BP (5gr to 15gr) charges.

In use, after priming the case, is to charge the cases before seating the RB firmly atop the powder charge (NO air gaps), followed by a light case mouth crimp and a light shot of lube atop the seated RB.

(I seat the RB's with a wooden dowel driven with a non-sparking, plastic-headed mallet)

.

[44shooter]

IIRC 357 uses small primers and 45 large. maybe you should go with two pairs?

[AJMD429]

I kind of am converting from 44 Mag to 45 Colt, and the 2400 powder should do for many loads in the 45 Colt. Ammoguide.com only lists 5 though...

Anyway, my first '45 Colt' was a Rossi 454 Casull, actually, but then I paired it up with a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk convertible that uses the 45 ACP as well.

Then I rebarreled my 1894 Marlin myself 44 Mag to 45 Colt - ALL parts except the barrel are the same in both chamberings.

Then just recently I find a Ruger Redhawk convertible that also uses 45 ACP moon clips...!

So between those four firearms and a couple 1911's, all bases might be covered...

[Old Ironsights]

IIRC 357 uses small primers and 45 large. maybe you should go with two pairs?

That's why .454.

Yes, the ACP uses large (as does .45 Colt) and I have a goodly bit for that, but the .454 uses Small Magnum Pistol or Small Rifle (same same)... so all of my remaining .357 primers will still cross over if I change.

I certainly don't dislike my .357s... not by a long shot. But I have largely stopped CCWing my SP101 and while I have used my .357 Rossi to good effect on deer here in WY, it's value over a .454 Lever over the same ranges is considerably different than in Indiana.

I'm not likely to get rid of my beloved .357s, but they may very well end up in cosmoline under a few specific rocks near Gannett Peak...

[Old Savage]

Since I can shoot 51 rifle and pistol calibers I would recommend any increase and no decrease.

[Malamute]

For both, (45 Colt & 454 Casull), cases & lead/bullets will be more costly. Powder usage for both will also take a jump. Ya probably oughtn't hotrod the 454, but you can certainly warm up the 45 Colt in that pair.

One of the things I'm thinking about is the fact that a 250gr bullet over 45gr of BP is still a mighty reasonable loading for just about anything, including "no more smokeless" scenarios where .357 gets mighty wimpy mighty fast with BP... and on the .45 Colt side, I can use them in my ROA (more thump) and 1858 (less thump).

Also, 250gr RNL works good in the ACP too...

Is the 45 grs of black in Casull cases? Are you sure they'll take that much? The difference in black capacity over 45 Colt cases may not be much, nor the velocity increase likely to be much over full loads in the Colt case. Has anyone been loading them to see? I didn't see any info on black in the 454 when I looked.

357 black loads did better than I expected when I saw info on it. Mid to high 900's I believe for pistol, and 1200-1300fps for rifle I think.

Ive seen a number of online discussions about what black capable guns to buy if smokeless wasnt available, and stocking up on caps, powder etc. When doing the mental math about various guns potential with black etc, and the related cost I keep coming back to what it would cost to buy a few thousand primers and several pounds of smokeless (much lower than buying a black powder gun and supplies), then it wouldn't matter that much. Nearly any gun will work with black if needed though.

[AJMD429]

One nice thing about 45 caliber, and better yet 50 caliber, is that a hundred bucks could buy a HUGE bag of sabots, so you could use most any projectile of any caliber, or for that matter, a rock...

I've thought about loading up some saboted ROCKS in my little breakopen 500 S&W rifle. . .

". . .what'd ya kill that thar deer with, son...? . . . a piece of pea gravel..."

[Old Savage]

Well OI, one of rhe most memorable guns I have seen here is your 357 trapper length Rossi that I believe you used to take a couple of deer back in the midwest with 180 gr loads. That seems a very good all around option. For general survival. But on the upper end of the 45 Colt, Cowboy Tutt gave me some 360 gr SWC loafs that exit my Rossi at 1350 fps.

[Les Staley]

I had originally ordered a Bighorn Armory model 90A (454 Casull). Now almost two years ago and paid in full at the time. (Wonder if that's why it's taking so long, but I digress). A few months ago I called and after getting assurance that it wouldn't add another MINUTE to my wait, I changed the order to a 460 Smith &Wesson. Don't really care about the higher pressure caliber, but with more case capacity it should be a great cast boolet tosser. And Docs suggestions about sabots is making me think... The black powder possibilities also exist. Any month now........

[Old Ironsights]

Well OI, one of rhe most memorable guns I have seen here is your 357 trapper length Rossi that I believe you used to take a couple of deer back in the midwest with 180 gr loads. That seems a very good all around option. For general survival. But on the upper end of the 45 Colt, Cowboy Tutt gave me some 360 gr SWC loafs that exit my Rossi at 1350 fps.

Like I said, I'm not really thinking of ditching the .357, more like thinking of some new possibilities.

[Griff]

Access to raw materials may hinder ones ability to produce BP as much as knowledge and/or equipment plus raw or refined materials to make smokeless. Hmmm... in fact... that last bit might put you in a very advantageous negotiating position.

[clampdaddy]

I shot a .44 for years but after I got my .45 and then a .454 my .44 rarely gets out. I really don't have much use for the power of the .454 but I got a good deal on the gun so I figured, why not. To me the .45 Colt loaded heavy is just about the perfect round for a woods pistol. It offers power on part to what I was getting with my .44 but at the lower pressure it runs at it doesn't have that ear ringing crack. More of a dull boom like a shotgun. I know hearing protection should "always" be worn when firing a gun but when bumming around in the woods I never seem to adhere to that rule.

[Bill in Oregon]

Just stumbled on a Bisley Super Blackhawk 5-shot in .454. I am going with 12.5 of Unique under a 300-grain XTP and the 300-grain Lee gas-check for medium-strength loads, Starline brass, WSR primer. I don't need the full monte for anything in the Lower 48. I'll likely also work up a Universal, 231 or Trail Boss easy plinker load.
Oddly, this thing came without grips, as I didn't want the stag that came with it and the guy couldn't find the box with the factories, so I just ordered a pair of checkered fleur-de-lis rosewoods from Altamont for a really reasonable price. Will post when I have these on the gun.

[AJMD429]

Oddly, this thing came without grips, as I didn't want the stag that came with it and the guy couldn't find the box with the factories, so I just ordered a pair of checkered fleur-de-lis rosewoods from Altamont for a really reasonable price.

Go ahead and just shoot it without the grips; it lightens the weight by several ounces, and gives you more edges to bear on with your hands...

(I did shoot my Super Blackhawk once without grips, but only using 44 Special 'light' loads, and it still wasn't all that pleasant...can't imagine trying it for a 454...!)

[Grizz]

Wow Bill

a 300gr gascheck! that's a bully load for sure.

I hope you have a chronograph because I'd like to compare to my old 320gr cast 44 load that I 'think' exited at around 1150fps. that was the hammer of SE Alaska on deers.

[Grizz]

OI

knowing the good stuff about hunting with .357, and liking the round, the 44 mag is a palpable order of magnitude harder hitting, not just throw weight wise, but it smacks 'em more harder.

I've never shot anything living with a 45, and the only ones I have are the ACP variety, so can't speak to that dimension.

If I had never shot a bunch of deer with a 44, and never developed a load for it, I would be attracted to the 480 ruger for the ability to get throw weight up and pressure down. although my 44 hunting loads do not push the pressure limits of the cartridge. For me, the 45s don't have enough margin to encourage me to move off the 44s.

All that said, if we had to flee the home zone and head for high latitudes on short notice, the 357s would stay behind for the looters. The go box is stuffed full....

[44shooter]

IIRC 357 uses small primers and 45 large. maybe you should go with two pairs?

That's why .454.

Yes, the ACP uses large (as does .45 Colt) and I have a goodly bit for that, but the .454 uses Small Magnum Pistol or Small Rifle (same same)... so all of my remaining .357 primers will still cross over if I change...

Ah, I was thinking the 454 used large primers like the other 45 cartridges. Sounds like you're all set up to go big bore all the way.

I personally prefer most any larger handgun round over 357, but I have a soft spot for the sweet and accurate 38 Special.

[Bill in Oregon]

Doc, I ain't a gonna do it.

[Old Savage]

45 achieves momentum power at lower pressures with more masd.

[Panzercat]

...what would be the downside of going to, say, a .454 Super Blackhawk and a 20" Rossi in .454?

Rossi.

[Griff]

...what would be the downside of going to, say, a .454 Super Blackhawk and a 20" Rossi in .454?

Rossi.

And I was thinkin': Too much horsepower, not enough brake!

[Old Savage]

Cowboy Tutt's shot a bit loose. But on the power scale he gave me some 360 gr. ,45 Colts that chronographed 1350 from my 20" Rossi. As a comparison, Hornady lists 1450 for their top load using 2400 with a 180 bullet.