357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Old Ironsights »

sore shoulder wrote:
olyinaz wrote:I do NOT get the fascination with the Whisper line of wildcats nor the 300 Blackout unless one is shooting subsonics for some sort of tactical reason...which no one out in the civil world is. Useless and silly in my view.
I disagree. If you can put the sound protection on the end of your gun instead of over your ears that is a lot more practical. Use of suppressors is not, and should not, be relegated to the "authorities" or "tactical" use. Besides, why shouldn't I be allowed to have a suppressor on my home defense guns? It gives me an advantage and protects my hearing. If I'm culling pigs and use a suppressed rifle, I'm more likely to get more animals before they get spooked and run. There are European countries that require them for sport shooters and sell them over the counter without any paperwork.
+1000

And the "authorities" rationale doesn't wash - at least in regards to hunting. If it did, bowhunters should be required to sound an air-horn immediately on release so the fishy-game cops can tell when someone is hunting. :roll:
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Rusty
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9528
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Central Fla

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Rusty »

When I first heard of the blackout it sounded like a good idea. Then I found out all the needed steps to make blackout brass out standard .223 brass. It sounds like a lot of trouble having to shorten it up before necking it down. I'm wondering why they couldn't just open the existing neck to .30 and be done with it?
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9

It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
User avatar
6pt-sika
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9609
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by 6pt-sika »

Rusty wrote:When I first heard of the blackout it sounded like a good idea. Then I found out all the needed steps to make blackout brass out standard .223 brass.
The two guys I know that have 300 Blackout uppers say they can buy factory ammo relatively cheap .
Since neither of these guys load and they are friends I made it perfectly clear before they bought them I had no intention of loading for that cartridge . I'm not overly happy spending my time and effort loading for a rata tat gun . Which is what those two will do when they take them to the range . Even though they claimed to have bought them for damage control hunting .
Parkers , Mannlicher Schoenauer’s , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines !
User avatar
Hobie
Moderator
Posts: 13902
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:54 pm
Location: Staunton, VA, USA
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Hobie »

Rusty wrote:When I first heard of the blackout it sounded like a good idea. Then I found out all the needed steps to make blackout brass out standard .223 brass. It sounds like a lot of trouble having to shorten it up before necking it down. I'm wondering why they couldn't just open the existing neck to .30 and be done with it?
Because it would then be too long to work through an AR15 magazine. Now, one doesn't have to do all that, there's brass. However, once upon a time a fella called JD Jones also thought that just opening up the brass would be easiest and he did exactly that to the .221 Remington Fireball which made the .300 Whisper. The .300 AAC Blackout is the Whisper but SAAMI has put the blessing on it with dimensions allowing for the thicker neck resulting from use of cut-down .223 brass. Different paths to the same end.
Sincerely,

Hobie

"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
User avatar
olyinaz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:19 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by olyinaz »

sore shoulder wrote:
olyinaz wrote:I do NOT get the fascination with the Whisper line of wildcats nor the 300 Blackout unless one is shooting subsonics for some sort of tactical reason...which no one out in the civil world is. Useless and silly in my view.
I disagree. If you can put the sound protection on the end of your gun instead of over your ears that is a lot more practical. Use of suppressors is not, and should not, be relegated to the "authorities" or "tactical" use. Besides, why shouldn't I be allowed to have a suppressor on my home defense guns? It gives me an advantage and protects my hearing. If I'm culling pigs and use a suppressed rifle, I'm more likely to get more animals before they get spooked and run. There are European countries that require them for sport shooters and sell them over the counter without any paperwork.
You misunderstand - I have NO problem with suppressed. Quiet is good and I may buy one myself (the federal extortion and govt. tracking is a huge problem for me...). What I'm talking about is the whole subsonic/giant bullet in a tiny case thing. It's ridiculous in my view when there are pistol caliber carbines, "thumper" ARs, and other chamberings (such as those I suggested) to be had which are far better for hunting or cheaper/easier to come by for plinking. Whatever the perceived need might be, I see a readily available better option vs. these chamberings. THAT is what I find silly.

If you're a spec ops guy who needs to smack a guy upside the head with subsonic round out of a silenced carbine that really NEEDS to be whisper quiet I understand that, but that guy will have his weapon issued by an agency.

Hey it's a hobby, I get that. I hope that everyone who buys a 300 Blackout AR has a ball hand loading for it and plinking with it. All the while there will be better choices out there that were passed over in favor of this flavor-of-the-month chambering, but that's OK too.

Cheers,
Oly
Rusty
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9528
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Central Fla

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Rusty »

I'm looking at the platform of the AR aside from everything else. Aside from the .223 Jr. is trying to lead me towards the 6.8. I think his .270 has influenced him.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9

It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
User avatar
cas
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: Under the giant W

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by cas »

Lots of buzz and a bit of hype.

The 300/221 is anything but new. lol

Yup the only difference between the 300 Whisper and the 300 Blackout is in the throat. The ACC is throated longer too IIRC and is able to get a little more velocity.

I've owned 6-7(?) different 300-221's form 5 different makers and not a one of them was throated the same. That's the claim that the Blackout is a "standardization" of a the round, but any of the versions before that could have made the same claim. ;)


If you look you will find LOTS of 300 Blackout uppers for sale used. NOT because it's a bad round, I love the little thing, been shooting one for 15 years or so. But because people are rushing to buy it with no real idea what it is. I assume they're expecting a super wonder round, but what they're getting is a medium loaded 30-30.
Slow is just slow.
User avatar
Hobie
Moderator
Posts: 13902
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:54 pm
Location: Staunton, VA, USA
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Hobie »

Where are all these used .300 Blackout uppers?
Sincerely,

Hobie

"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
User avatar
cas
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: Under the giant W

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by cas »

The AR15.con Equipment Exchange. I see barrels and uppers every time I look on there.



I've had two 300/221 uppers…. (well, 1 & 1/2. I parted out the second one without ever firing a shot). I found the first one kind of ho-hum and boring. It would make a great weapon and a nice medium range hunting gun, but as a recreational shooter I found it boring and didn't keep it long.
Maybe I didn't give it a fair shake... which was why I put together the second one, but something "more important" came along. (naturally I don't remember what. lol)

I have a 6.5G which i think is more fun. I must have some tie between what I think is fun in the AR and recoil, because I think the 50beowulf I had was the most fun AR I've ever used.
Slow is just slow.
User avatar
Hobie
Moderator
Posts: 13902
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:54 pm
Location: Staunton, VA, USA
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Hobie »

Must have missed them...
Sincerely,

Hobie

"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
awp101
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5670
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:13 pm
Location: DeeDee Snavely's Used Guns and Weapons

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by awp101 »

Thanks to Steve bringing this up, I've been reading up on the Blackout for the past week. There's a pretty good FAQ here: http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtop ... 28&t=73274

Near as I can tell, most of the hype comes from those who want more punch than the 5.56 but don't like the 6.8 SPC. The manufacturer info on that forum is pretty straightforward about it being roughly equivalent to the 7.62x39 and suppressor friendly.

I'm interested because I don't want a 5.56 AR and I like the 7.62x39. For me the main attractions are if you already have a 5.56 AR it only requires a barrel change, it uses .308 bullets and it takes standard GI mags at full capacity. I don't expect it to be a mud hole stomper against anything that walks or crawls in North or South America but when treated as a semi-auto .30-30 it'll handle anything I need done.

Besides, in my searches across the internet, I ran across this little thing and kind of took a shine to it:
Image
Image
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain

Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13

Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
User avatar
cas
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: Under the giant W

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by cas »

Hobie wrote:Must have missed them...

If you're looking for something you will never find it. lol Unless you're flat broke, then there will be tons of them. ;)

A lot of them I've seen have been SBR length though.

Stuff goes pretty fast there, especially trendy stuff. I tried for years to get a used Whisper barrel or upper there but could never catch one in time.
Slow is just slow.
User avatar
olyinaz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:19 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by olyinaz »

Ceppin' it's NOT a .30-30.

300 Whisper Hornady factory ammo throws a 110gr slug at 2350 fps and Hornady factory .30-30 is throwing 160gr. at 2400fps.

Remington factory ammo shows 300 Blackout (interchangeable with Whisper as I understand it) with 125gr at 2250 and .30-30 with 150gr at 2390.

We've had this conversation before regarding 7.62x39, which is a bit stronger even than 300 Whisper. It's just NOT the hammer that .30-30 is. No way, no how. Is it perfectly acceptable for killing deer? Well I would guess so, just as much so as 6.8 SPC which is only maybe 100fps faster than the 300 (as is the 7.62x39). But none of 'em can hold a candle to .30-30 in my not so humble opinion and that 160gr Hornady slug doing 2400fps is even a spitzer pointed unit!

Just sayin' "close" counts in horse shoes and hand grenades, but I'm not sure it's very accurate to keep throwing around that the 7.62x39 or the 6.8 SPC or the 300 Whisper (the weakest of the bunch) are the "same thing as the old .30-30" like I keep seeing all over the internets when they're all throwing lighter bullets, often at slower speeds, than our old work horse. :wink:

Oly
User avatar
cas
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: Under the giant W

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by cas »

I've owned 10", 11", 12" and 16" 300 Whispers. Never chrono'd the longer ones, just the shorter ones. In the short barrels is where it compares more closely with the .30-30

Been shooting them for close to 15 years now and couldn't quote a velocity that mine are doing off the top of my head if I had to. Just don't matter too much. In the big picture it is the same as the 30-30, in that it's not a 30-06 or 300 Win mag.
Slow is just slow.
User avatar
Hobie
Moderator
Posts: 13902
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:54 pm
Location: Staunton, VA, USA
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Hobie »

If the .30 Herrett was a good deer cartridge from a 10" Contender, and many "contended" it was, then why not the .300 Blackout/Whisper from a 16" carbine? Placement, placement, placement...
Sincerely,

Hobie

"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
User avatar
SafetyJoe
Levergunner
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:40 am

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by SafetyJoe »

I'm wondering if loading light weight plain base 32 caliber lead handgun bullets into 300 AAC brass using a small charge of fast burning pistol powder would make a decent small game hunting load that only costs around 4 cents per shot. It would be something similar to 38 special power, but the accuracy and overall efficiency would be better. The bullet hole diameter left in the game would also be slightly smaller than 38 special which means more saved meat.

I just ordered all 3 of the Lee 32 cal handgun molds that cost $20. I'm thinking about trying them in my tiny single shot H&R rifle in 300 blackout. I have lots of IMR 700X powder I could use with small pistol primers and around the same data as 90 grain or 105 grain 38 special lead bullets. I can try them with traditional lube or powder coating them. The powder coating must be used if I want to try and push those little bullets faster without gas checks and a slower burning powder like Longshot, HS6 or IMR 4227. It's worked for me with 223 powder coated lead bullets and no gas checks in the past.

Using 32 cal handgun molds that do not require gas checks cuts the cost almost in half per shot. I get S&B primers for 2 cents and the lead and powder cost is around 2 cents and the 300 BLK brass is free in the form of converted 223 brass so the total cost would be around 4 cents per shot. That's less than 22LR has been costing lately. Yes, converting the 223 brass into 300 blackout takes a little work, but it's not that hard.

Continue reading below
Image

The point of experimenting with this is to find the most light weight, accurate, efficient, cost effective and versatile brush gun and caliber for game between the sizes of deer and squirrel. Obviously the deer hunting ammo will cost more than the small game ammo at 4 cents per shot, but not a whole lot more. The deer or hog ammo will probably cost around 10 cents per shot because they'll use more lead and gun powder. Still very cost effective with either loading.

I think my single shot H&R 300 BLK rifle or even a Ruger American Ranch rifle in 300 BLK could rival the 38/357 magnum rifles in terms of weight, versatility and range. The only advantage the 38/357 mag has is that it can be used in handguns and the brass requires less work when reloading, but the added range and power capabilities the 300 AAC caliber has with good bullets probably balances things out and might even still have a slight overall advantage. With good jacketed bullets 300 blackout has a supersonic range of around 500 yards. That's nothing a 357 magnum even comes close to. However, for now I'm just talking about using inexpensive lead bullets and comparing that to 38/357 mag.

Even if this all turns out to be a waste of time when 38/357 magnum does, for the most part, the same things it'll still be an interesting thing to experiment with and see which caliber comes out on top with being the most light weight, most efficient and most accurate.

Here's a picture I found online of someone loading a 90 grain 32 cal handgun bullet into a 30-30 win rifle case. So what do you think? Waste of time or something interesting to tinker around with?

Image
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 32800
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by AJMD429 »

Thanks for resurrecting an interesting thread...!

I have a 300 Blk Encore rifle that I put my Mystic suppressor on that is a nice little gun with good accuracy and low sound signature. I also have an AR 'pistol' (bought the lower and registered it as such) in 300 Blk that is surprisingly accurate and with a folding stock makes a compact go-anywhere 'handgun'.

One advantage of the 300 Blk in an AR versus a 357 Mag levergun is that you can, if needed, put in a 40 round magazine (or bigger), and you can, if needed, shoot really, really fast in the AR. That isn't what most of us need to do though, but it is nice to know you can do it if needed.

It is also way faster to unload if you are leaving private property or going into a vehicle and need to for legal purposes, although the handgun version could technically be kept loaded in your vehicle in many states.

Keep us posted on the H&R testing. Looks fun. I've not had the time to shoot the Encore as much as I'd like.

I guess another advantage of the 300 Blk versus the 357 Mag is that since none of the rifle makers seem to be interested in making a factory-threaded 357 levergun, you need to plan on adding several hundred dollars for a disassembly, threading, and rebluing. :? I'd buy a factory-threaded stainless steel 357 Magnum Marlin 1894 for sure if they ever made one.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Model 52B
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:43 pm

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Model 52B »

Griff wrote:Muzzle velocities are nice, but what about their downrange ballistics? I'd suspect their pointy bullets don't give up what the "blunts" in your levergun will.
If you look at trajectory and stay with a sub sonic load of say 220 grains at 1020 fps, the point black range is pretty poor - about 140 yards with a 120 yard zero and you've only got 465 ft pounds when you get to 140 yards.

If you go with a supersonic load, say 150 grains at 2050 fps, you can zero for 220 yards and be within 5" of line of sight out to 255 yards with 800 ft lbs of energy.

With a 158 gr JSP at 1870 fps in a 24" Model 92, you can zero for 175 yards and shoot to 204 yards with a 5" difference from line of sight and you've still got 543 ft lbs of energy at 204 yards.

So, from a numbers perspective, we can't argue that the .357 Magnum is ballistically superior, however that's also not the whole story. A blunt nosed 158 grain .357 diameter bullet tend to consistently get deep penetration and decent expansion at low velocities, where many .308 spitzer bullets designed for higher velocities don't perform all that well at all.
User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3541
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by earlmck »

Isn't it interesting -- all the forms we keep coming up with for the 32/20? I went shooting yesterday with my 32/20 in the form of a Remington 760 pump gun/300 Savage. Lee 120 grain / 10 grains Green Dot = 32/20 load. I also like the same cartridge in my Savage 99, and with another half grain powder in the Sav 99/308. The Win. 30/30 and 303 Savage both like the bullet (or more generally the 117 grain RanchDog 32/20 bullet) with just a bit less Green Dot than the 300 Savage. The '06 shoots them nicely but wants about 12 grains of Green Dot.

Now granted, those are 32/20 in the high speed variety (around 1600 to 1700 fps). I can leave off the gas check, shoot them at under 1200 fps with 3 grains Red Dot in the 32/20, 4 to 4.5 in 30/30 through 308, and 5.5 grains in the '06. And the larger brass is so much easier to find on the ground than the little 32/20 cases. I size these to .308 or .309 depending on the throat of the particular rifle. Those two sizes accomodate all my 30's except for the original 32/20 which wants .313.

I don't have a 32/20 based on the 223 case. I'll bet that is a nice one!
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 32800
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by AJMD429 »

earlmck wrote:Isn't it interesting -- all the forms we keep coming up with for the 32/20? I went shooting yesterday with my 32/20 in the form of a Remington 760 pump gun/300 Savage. Lee 120 grain / 10 grains Green Dot = 32/20 load. I also like the same cartridge in my Savage 99, and with another half grain powder in the Sav 99/308. The Win. 30/30 and 303 Savage both like the bullet (or more generally the 117 grain RanchDog 32/20 bullet) with just a bit less Green Dot than the 300 Savage. The '06 shoots them nicely but wants about 12 grains of Green Dot.

Now granted, those are 32/20 in the high speed variety (around 1600 to 1700 fps). I can leave off the gas check, shoot them at under 1200 fps with 3 grains Red Dot in the 32/20, 4 to 4.5 in 30/30 through 308, and 5.5 grains in the '06. And the larger brass is so much easier to find on the ground than the little 32/20 cases. I size these to .308 or .309 depending on the throat of the particular rifle. Those two sizes accomodate all my 30's except for the original 32/20 which wants .313.

I don't have a 32/20 based on the 223 case. I'll bet that is a nice one!
Funny you mention that - I ALMOST got my Encore in 32-20 (actually the Encores are 30-20 and use a 308 bullet), and was planning on modifying the leade to accept long jacketed bullets 180-220 grains. I found the 300 Blk was so similar that I decided to go with that, but it would have been fun to do with the 32-20.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
stubbicatt
Levergunner
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:18 am

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by stubbicatt »

I guess to each his own. I just don't like the AR15. It is by all accounts a great rifle.

A word which has worked itself into the firearms lexicon is "platform." Some guys gnash their teeth when someone presents a magazine and calls it a "clip." Me? Using the word "platform" to describe a rifle just puts sand burs in my panties.

I just smile and nod, and return to the firing line and shoot an old single shot or a lever actioned rifle.

Perhaps with age comes prudence and discretion. :)

Regards,
Stubb
User avatar
sore shoulder
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2611
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:51 pm
Location: 9000ft in the Rockies

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by sore shoulder »

stubbicatt wrote:I guess to each his own. I just don't like the AR15. It is by all accounts a great rifle.

A word which has worked itself into the firearms lexicon is "platform." Some guys gnash their teeth when someone presents a magazine and calls it a "clip." Me? Using the word "platform" to describe a rifle just puts sand burs in my panties.

I just smile and nod, and return to the firing line and shoot an old single shot or a lever actioned rifle.

Perhaps with age comes prudence and discretion. :)

Regards,
Stubb
The difference between a clip and a magazine is semantics for the most part, even though technically a clip holds rounds that are loaded into a magazine. In common usage it can refer to either. As someone who uses magazines as part of my job, I love making that one pedantic linguist in my unit grind his teeth by using the word clip at every opportunity.

As to the term platform, in this case its a highly accurate and useful one. There are so many variants of the original AR15 that it serves its purpose well when clarifying what you are talking about. An M16 is not an M4 is not a Mk12 is not a Mod O SPR is not a DMR is not a SASS is not a XM177 is not a CAR-15 etc etc. However everyone of them is a variant of the original AR15 platform. It is also useful for describing what type of rifle the myriad of accessories and parts for an AR15 fit. A barrel or grip that will fit all of the models i listed and more can be simply identified as being compatible with most AR platform rifles. If you prefer you can use the term variant, but I could quibble the accuracy of that too. :D
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 32800
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by AJMD429 »

sore shoulder wrote:As to the term platform, in this case its a highly accurate and useful one. There are so many variants of the original AR15 that it serves its purpose well when clarifying what you are talking about. An M16 is not an M4 is not a Mk12 is not a Mod O SPR is not a DMR is not a SASS is not a XM177 is not a CAR-15 etc etc. However everyone of them is a variant of the original AR15 platform. It is also useful for describing what type of rifle the myriad of accessories and parts for an AR15 fit. A barrel or grip that will fit all of the models i listed and more can be simply identified as being compatible with most AR platform rifles. If you prefer you can use the term variant, but I could quibble the accuracy of that too. :D
So.....could we say a Winchester Model 71 is one of the "1886 Platform" variants.... :twisted: :wink: :lol:
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
sore shoulder
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2611
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:51 pm
Location: 9000ft in the Rockies

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by sore shoulder »

AJMD429 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:As to the term platform, in this case its a highly accurate and useful one. There are so many variants of the original AR15 that it serves its purpose well when clarifying what you are talking about. An M16 is not an M4 is not a Mk12 is not a Mod O SPR is not a DMR is not a SASS is not a XM177 is not a CAR-15 etc etc. However everyone of them is a variant of the original AR15 platform. It is also useful for describing what type of rifle the myriad of accessories and parts for an AR15 fit. A barrel or grip that will fit all of the models i listed and more can be simply identified as being compatible with most AR platform rifles. If you prefer you can use the term variant, but I could quibble the accuracy of that too. :D
So.....could we say a Winchester Model 71 is one of the "1886 Platform" variants.... :twisted: :wink: :lol:
How many parts from the action of a 71 will fit in an 86?
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
KRD
Levergunner
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by KRD »

The 300 Blackout was developed by Advanced Armaments Corporation specifically as a suppressed round to be fired in the AR platform. It actually is an answer to a problem that existed with close quarter battles where the AK47 round has superior knock down power over the 5.56 Nato round in short range situations, especially when the 5.56 is suppressed. Thus the 200 grain suppressed round in the 300 AAC Blackout. The intent was to provide a simple AR upper switch, enabling the military to use the same platform and magazines.

It is really funny to read all of the discussions on other forums that try to make this round something that it is not. Unless you plan to be involved in a close quarter fire fight, there are a whole lot of better alternatives to hunting cartridges and recreational shooting.

Just my thoughts and opinion, based on a few facts.
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 32800
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by AJMD429 »

sore shoulder wrote:How many parts from the action of a 71 will fit in an 86?
Well, maybe it's like an AR-10 and AR-15, a sorta-different, sorta-the-same platform... :D

I know when I first heard the term 'platform' tossed around in the gun magazines, I thought it seemed kind of silly (kind of like calling everything 'tactical'), but you're right - there really IS a 'platform', or maybe what I'd have called a 'chassis' or 'framework' if they'd let me invent the terminology.

Even though in the 1970's all I saw when I looked at an M-16 was a 'plastic toy' that nearly got a cousin of mine killed by not working well in Viet Nam, the modern AR-15 weapons I have to admit are amazing pieces of machinery, and evidently even the military finds them pretty reliable in their present iteration. I even broke down and bought a couple over the past few years, although I still prefer the looks of the M1A or Mini-14.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
sore shoulder
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2611
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:51 pm
Location: 9000ft in the Rockies

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by sore shoulder »

AJMD429 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:How many parts from the action of a 71 will fit in an 86?
Well, maybe it's like an AR-10 and AR-15, a sorta-different, sorta-the-same platform... :D

I know when I first heard the term 'platform' tossed around in the gun magazines, I thought it seemed kind of silly (kind of like calling everything 'tactical'), but you're right - there really IS a 'platform', or maybe what I'd have called a 'chassis' or 'framework' if they'd let me invent the terminology.

Even though in the 1970's all I saw when I looked at an M-16 was a 'plastic toy' that nearly got a cousin of mine killed by not working well in Viet Nam, the modern AR-15 weapons I have to admit are amazing pieces of machinery, and evidently even the military finds them pretty reliable in their present iteration. I even broke down and bought a couple over the past few years, although I still prefer the looks of the M1A or Mini-14.
There are definitely several terms that would work, platform just seems to have stuck. I think the term that has annoyed me the most is "tactile". Every forum scope evaluation uses that term when describing how the turrets feel when making adjustments.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 32800
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by AJMD429 »

sore shoulder wrote:I think the term that has annoyed me the most is "tactile". Every forum scope evaluation uses that term when describing how the turrets feel when making adjustments.
Wow....."tactile tactical turrets"......... 8) 8) 8) ....how terrific..... :lol:
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Rube Burrows
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2124
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:27 pm
Location: Louisiana

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Rube Burrows »

Griff wrote:Muzzle velocities are nice, but what about their downrange ballistics? I'd suspect their pointy bullets don't give up what the "blunts" in your levergun will.

This is more so than just muzzle velocities.

I built a 300 blackout and it does its job well against deer and hogs and its nice to be able to use the same magazines and things and still have the knock down power of a larger bullet. I have not done as much testing as I want just yet but so far I like it.

I love lever guns and seem to trade nearly every AR I build for some type of Lever gun in the end but there is a big difference in bullet style between a .357mag and a 300 blackout.
Terry Murbach
Shootist
Posts: 1682
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: BLACK HILLS, DAKOTA TERRITORY

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by Terry Murbach »

KRD wrote:The 300 Blackout was developed by Advanced Armaments Corporation specifically as a suppressed round to be fired in the AR platform. It actually is an answer to a problem that existed with close quarter battles where the AK47 round has superior knock down power over the 5.56 Nato round in short range situations, especially when the 5.56 is suppressed. Thus the 200 grain suppressed round in the 300 AAC Blackout. The intent was to provide a simple AR upper switch, enabling the military to use the same platform and magazines.

It is really funny to read all of the discussions on other forums that try to make this round something that it is not. Unless you plan to be involved in a close quarter fire fight, there are a whole lot of better alternatives to hunting cartridges and recreational shooting.

Just my thoughts and opinion, based on a few facts.
THIS WOULD BE T-TOTALLY INCORRECT, SIR !!! The 300blackout is a total---TOTAL!!!--- ripoff of J.D. jones 300WHISPER from 1992. I've shot the very first 300WHISPER and the second one for that matter. Obviouisly the folks at AAC are a bunch of thieving lowlifes too ignorent to do their own developement work, So they steal everyone elses work. The funny part is their stuff is all but trash in comparison to J.D.'s work.
TM
RIDE, SHOOT STRAIGHT, AND SPEAK THE TRUTH
m.wun
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: S.Cal

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by m.wun »

JD is far superior but the round would not be as poplar as it is unless ABC ran it through SAAMI.
What in the wild world of sports is going on here
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 32800
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by AJMD429 »

Terry Murbach wrote:THIS WOULD BE T-TOTALLY INCORRECT, SIR !!! The 300 blackout is a total---TOTAL!!!--- ripoff of J.D. jones 300 WHISPER from 1992. I've shot the very first 300WHISPER and the second one for that matter. Obviously the folks at AAC are a bunch of thieving lowlifes too ignorant to do their own development work, So they steal everyone else's work. The funny part is their stuff is all but trash in comparison to J.D.'s work.
TM
I think somewhere on the AAC website I did read a 'history of the cartridge' that actually admitted exactly what you say in terms of the cartridge being a copy of the Whisper (except the "thieving lowlifes" & "all but trash" part :wink: ). Of course the 'spin' was still trying to make the 300 Blk sound 'superior' to the predecessor Whisper. :roll: I doubt with my shooting skills and available firearms I could ever tell any difference.

Their getting the SAAMI stamp of approval probably was the big marketing advantage, and a good move from a business standpoint.

I always thought J.D. Jones' concept of "heavy for caliber" bullets with high ballistic coefficients, launched from cases just large enough to hold enough powder to launch them barely subsonic, made lots of sense. You do have to do your 'range estimates' precisely (most of the folks using these rounds for serious work probably have rangefinders anyway), but without having to endure trans-sonic tumbling, if fired from an accurate gun, they can be super accurate, even at long range (just get the elevation right by knowing your trajectory and exact range).
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
mohavesam
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:40 am
Location: Rugerville AZ USA

Re: 357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

Post by mohavesam »

I too, love my 357 '94 levers, especially since I added the fwd rail mounts from AO and have the option of 21st century optics.
But I thought I had something special when I got into my first Mini 30. It was accurate enough and a great excuse to try some spitzer .308 bullets and I was right! I still enjoy the Mini 30 with any domestic load I've tried. It is an oft-overlooked venison maker under the 100 yard mark.

I don't hunt with a suppressor (never say never) and have had a SSK Contender barrel in Jones's 300 Whisper back before my kids were born. Interesting but I already had better guns for 'yotes and such, and as-above, the Mini-30 was already there.

- And the 307W still does everything I ask it in a deer gun here in the mountains of AZ as it did in the north-coast states...
Especially since I added the fwd rail from AO and have the option of 21st century optics!
8)
I'm positive God created the universe... I'm just not convinced He had any choice in the matter.
-A. Einstein
Post Reply