.44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

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Carlsen Highway
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.44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Carlsen Highway »

I am still trying to educate myself about cast lead bullets. I have a big fan of the .44-40, but have not had much experience loading for it, only finding one good load with Hornady XTP's a while ago and just sticking with it.

I have my first lead bullet loads to test tomorrow morning, 215 grain RNFP bullets that look pretty much the same as the old Winchester lead bullets to my eye. I have loaded with 20 - 21 - 22 grains of H4227.

This is in a Rossi 20' carbine with a bore that I slugged at .430. The bullets have been sized to .4305 or .431.

With Hornady jacketed 200 grain XTP and 24.0 grains of H4227 I get chronographed average of 1632 fps and accuracy in the 2 inch groups at 110 yards now that I am using a Williams receiver sight. I figured I didn't really need to improve on that, but now I have a guy who has the right .44 WCF bullet mould and the price of the lead bullets is right....

I have come across mention of using 'filler' of some kind - cream of wheat, or Polyetheln shot buffer (?)

Is it worth trying these just to see what happens ? How are these fillers used, how are they loaded and what are they, and can I make them myself?
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Griff »

I don't believe fillers to be of any benefit, except when loading densities drop well below 50%. And even then, mainly only with powders that are known to be position sensitive. In 40 years of reloading, I've strictly avoided any use of fillers. Even in my BP loads.

With that said, in the two books I have in front of me, or on Hodgdon's website, I don't find any loads listed for H-4227.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by jmiller »

Griff is right on the money with his reply. I played around a bit with fillers just to see if it made any difference with a variety of powders. None of the powders that were used that weren't position sensitive showed any improvement in groups size what so ever. None, and I used quite a few different powders. I spent a lot of time researching the use of them, and the leading true experts told me the same thing Griff just told you. I had to try it myself to see, and they were correct. One other note: some people don't know the difference between fillers and creating a wad in the empty space. You can ring a barrel if you don't use fillers as intended to be used. Do some research if you're going to try it. Your best, and safest fillers are lofted polyester like the stuff found in pillows, etc.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by veeman »

get yourself some TrailBoss powder, 4.5 grs under a cast 200 grn bullet is very accurate and easy on shooter and guns, and fills the case little over half.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by earlmck »

Carlson, I've been shooting the 205 grain Lee cast bullet in my Rossi. At the 1300 to 1450 fps velocities you are going to get with your 4227 loads (I played with them in QuickLoad to see because I haven't used 4227 in this application) I got 6" and larger groups at 100 yards, but this improved a lot as I reduced my velocities (a plain-based cast bullet doesn't like to go very fast). I have settled on a light charge of Green Dot (just because I have a keg of it) at a bit over 1100 fps. and this gets the tin cans at 100 yards when I can do my part.

If you use 4227 for this application (talking more like 16 to 18 grains) you are going to be running very low pressures by the time you reduce velocities to that level (if you find that you need to, which I'm strongly guessing you will). It may not burn very consistently at those low pressures and you'll want a different powder. If you can get TrailBoss there (we haven't seen TB in this area in at least 2 years) that would be a good suggestion that veeman is giving you. His load looks like an 800 fps load; you'd be more like 8 to 8.5 grains to get to my 1100 fps levels. But I've been doing fine with my old Green Dot, no filler).

You are on the right track: no need for expensive bullets needed for most of our fun shooting. And if you do want to experiment with the fillers, I have used with no problem the dacron pillow stuffing fiber as per jmiller's suggestion or plastic shot-buffer used in making long-range shotshell waterfowl loads. The shot buffer is nice because you can throw it from a powder measure or with a little scoop for a considerably faster loading procedure. But as jmiller notes, fillers don't seem to work any miracles.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Malamute »

I think theres a difference between "fillers" and something to help keep the powder positioned. Fillers take up space, positioning material holds the powder near the primer.

I seriously doubt your loads need anything to help keep the powder positioned or a filler. There are very few instances it really helps.

I use a small tuft of Dacron pillow stuffing on extra-light loads, like 3 grs Unique in a 30-30 with round ball or 6 1/2 grs Unique with round ball in 45-70. The Dacron is rolled into a ball and tamped over the powder. It "fills" only maybe a 1/4 of the extra space. Its highly compressible, and by friction helps hold the powder near the primer in certain loads that don't ignite well otherwise. I also use some, or a partial sheet of toilet paper, in some 45-70 loads that don't burn consistently. I stuck a bullet with IMR 4198 and jacketed 300 gr bullet once at Lee Loader charge velocities. The powder was all clumped and partially melted. I started using the partial sheet of toilet paper and it stopped leaving as much unburned powder and I've not had a stuck bullet since about 1976.

I bounced a 45-70 round ball off a snakes head with no Dacron fluff. It seemed pretty annoyed. I went back to using the fluff and had no more issues with odd sounding reports or inconsistent ignition, or wimpy bullets barely making it out the barrel.

Lyman and others used to indicate the use of Dacron batting in some loads. I don't think it can be said that "true experts" universally do not use them. That said, some powders do better without any help, some less so. Some people report no problems with Unique in ultra-light loads, but I wonder if they shoot them virtually straight up and straight down and have no variation in results.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Carlsen Highway »

THanks guys, I think I wont need to worry any more about fillers with what am doing.


I measured the bullets properly before I loaded them last night, and they all seem to mike at exactly .430...and my bore is .430 too. So maybe they might be a little small?

Here are the results from this morning. This was shot at only 50 metres since I wasn't sure where the POI was going to be to start with.
All loaded with H4227 and from left to right is 20grains - 21 grains - 22 grains

Groups sizes are 6 inches (four shots) - 2.5 inches (four shots) 2.0 inches (five shots)

Image

I am guessing that the lead bullets are not ''bumping up'' into the bore with the 20 grain load, but are with the others.

To my inexperienced eye there does not seem to be any leading in my bore. Put it this way, it looks as shiny and normal as it ever..


I do have a problem back again that I had experienced with my jacketed XTP bullets when first shooting this powder, which is unburnt kernels or granules of powder left in the bore.

I solved that previously with the jacketed bullets by changing from a Lee crimp die, to a roll crimp, which sorted it out immediately. I think with the thin case mouth of the .44 WCF, the Lee crimp die was not upping pressures enough to burn the whole powder, whereas the roll crimp did the trick. That is my theory.
I am not sure how to fix this with the lead bullet because I already did my normal roll crimp. I might have to live with it.

I havn't thought of other powders, because I do want to get at least the old blackpowder velocities around 1200 - 1300fps, since although this is a general shooting load, sooner or later I am going to want to shoot a deer with it.

((I actually have a jug of Trailboss here somewhere, but didn't even consider it because I thought velocities would be so slow, (I have it here because I was loading some subsonic .44 magnum for a friend who has a silencer on his Ruger autocarbine))
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Ben_Rumson »

Looks very promising...The 21gr group looks like the best load... I've had the same type group and it was sighting error... Front sight might be too wide for the bull... Experiment with different size bulls ... An old Elmer Keith trick...

Unburnt powder... A dash of some BP? Good Luck!
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Carlsen Highway »

You may be right...the middle 21 grain group size is actually bigger than the right hand 22 grain one, but a horizontal group result like that when I am target shooting with open sights, is often a result of me concentrating on getting the elevation right, and letting the left-and-right go hang...
of course it could just be chance as well...

Some more shooting is in order, and a chronographing
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by marlinman93 »

Sounds like Rossi put a .44 Mag barrel on your gun, and chambered it for .44-40. I would expect a .44-40 barrel to size around .427", and not .430" as yours is. This seems to be a common thing lately, as manufacturers often offer the same guns in .44-40 and .44 Magnum, so they use the one bore fits all method. I'd want to be at .431" for bullets, as smokeless powders wont bump up your bullet. But you may end up with chambering issues with a .431" bullet in the neck of a .44-40 chamber. So make one up first, and be sure it chambers easily, before you make a bunch up.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Carlsen Highway »

This is my third Rossi in .44-40 and they have all been .430 barrels, so yeah, I think they use the same barrels as their .44 Magnum and just run a .44-40 reamer into it.
Actually I am happy about that as it means I can shoot .44 mag jacketed bullets, which are much easier to find around here than .427-.428 .44 WCF sized ones.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Terry Murbach »

WHERE IN THE WORLD did you get that loading data ?? Some of it is eight [ 8 ! ] grains above data I developed in a pressure gun ten or twelve years ago.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Tactical Lever »

Terry Murbach wrote:WHERE IN THE WORLD did you get that loading data ?? Some of it is eight [ 8 ! ] grains above data I developed in a pressure gun ten or twelve years ago.
And so it goes...
Found hotter loads than that. The loads you are referencing would be BP equivalent I imagine. However, in a new Rossi you can go much higher. Same gun is offered in
.454 Casull, so that gives you some idea of the pressures the gun will take.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Lefty Dude »

When I was loading my 92 Rossi 44WCF using Unique I found the 240 gr. cast bullet was most accurate by using a double crimp. I first used the roll crimp die of the RCBS Cowboy die, then used the LFCD for a final double crimp.
My Son won several contests and pot shoots with this load, at 200 yards off hand. (Twenty year old Eyes)
Some Powders, like Unique, like a very firm crimp with the 44WCF case.
My Rossi bore slugged out at .429". I sized the bullets, .430". It would cut clover leaves at 50 yards.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Terry Murbach »

Tactical Lever wrote:
Terry Murbach wrote:WHERE IN THE WORLD did you get that loading data ?? Some of it is eight [ 8 ! ] grains above data I developed in a pressure gun ten or twelve years ago.
And so it goes...
Found hotter loads than that. The loads you are referencing would be BP equivalent I imagine. However, in a new Rossi you can go much higher. Same gun is offered in
.454 Casull, so that gives you some idea of the pressures the gun will take.
IT IS NOT THE GUN, it is the gasket. And having one of the first Rossi 454's I've seen what happens to it after using it to shoot up a few thousand rounds of seconds at the plant.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by earlmck »

Terry Murbach wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:
Terry Murbach wrote:WHERE IN THE WORLD did you get that loading data ?? Some of it is eight [ 8 ! ] grains above data I developed in a pressure gun ten or twelve years ago.
And so it goes...
Found hotter loads than that. The loads you are referencing would be BP equivalent I imagine. However, in a new Rossi you can go much higher. Same gun is offered in
.454 Casull, so that gives you some idea of the pressures the gun will take.
IT IS NOT THE GUN, it is the gasket. And having one of the first Rossi 454's I've seen what happens to it after using it to shoot up a few thousand rounds of seconds at the plant.
I looked at what old QuickLoad says about Carlson Highway's loads. QL thinks the Hornady XTP/24 grain load would give from 23K to 27K depending on where you crimp. I wouldn't think that would strain the "gasket" too much with modern brass, even a thinly built case like the 44/40, would it Terry? Though you certainly wouldn't want those loads sitting around where they might get used in one of the older guns.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Malamute »

The older Lyman manuals used to have loads with 2400 in the 44-40 for the 92s that ran around 2000 fps w/ 200 gr bullets. Not sure what pressures they figured were allowed.

ETA: Found the manual, its number 45. They showed IMR 4227 loads with 200 gr jacketed, 26 gr giving 1789 fps in 24" barrel Winchester model 92 with .432" groove diameter, and max of 29 grs for 2012 fps.

Cast loads were 25 grs IMR 4227 for 1742 fps and 28 grs for 1964 fps.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Terry,
My top load is 24 grains of H4227 (AR2205) under a 200 grain Hornady XTP and I get 1632 fps - this is a max load in the current ADI manual, intended for Win 92 and Marlin 94's.

This is not even a starter load for the .44 Magnum, which has a lower case capacity.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Malamute »

Carlsen Highway wrote:Terry,
My top load is 24 grains of H4227 (AR2205) under a 200 grain Hornady XTP and I get 1632 fps - this is a max load in the current ADI manual, intended for Win 92 and Marlin 94's.

This is not even a starter load for the .44 Magnum, which has a higher case capacity.
I'm thinking the 44-40 has a larger case. When trying black in 44 mags I could only get around 30-ish grs in I think. The 44-40 is a little fatter near the rim and necked down to 44.

ETA: found some information, it looks like a little more can be gotten in a 44 mag case, but still a bit behind what a 44-40 case will take. One source mentioned that their 44 mag cases took 12.5 percent less water than 44-40 when loaded with the same bullets, 213.5 gr cast. I guess the moral of all that is, the extra capacity is likely mitigating some of the pressure that may be assumed from similar or greater than 44 mag loads.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by w30wcf »

I have used PSB (Polyethylene Shot Buffer) in the .44-40 with cast bullets to replicate the early W.H.V (Winchester High Velocity) cartridge with good accuracy. I found that in addition to acting as a gas check under the cast bullet, it also resulted in more consistent velocities since the powder is held in a constant position. :D

Image

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CAUTION: DO NOT USE FILLERS WITH FAST BURNING POWDERS.

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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Malamute wrote:
Carlsen Highway wrote:Terry,
My top load is 24 grains of H4227 (AR2205) under a 200 grain Hornady XTP and I get 1632 fps - this is a max load in the current ADI manual, intended for Win 92 and Marlin 94's.

This is not even a starter load for the .44 Magnum, which has a higher case capacity.
I'm thinking the 44-40 has a larger case. When trying black in 44 mags I could only get around 30-ish grs in I think. The 44-40 is a little fatter near the rim and necked down to 44.

ETA: found some information, it looks like a little more can be gotten in a 44 mag case, but still a bit behind what a 44-40 case will take. One source mentioned that their 44 mag cases took 12.5 percent less water than 44-40 when loaded with the same bullets, 213.5 gr cast. I guess the moral of all that is, the extra capacity is likely mitigating some of the pressure that may be assumed from similar or greater than 44 mag loads.
Malamute, sorry I typed that wrong - my intention was to say that the .44-40 has more case volume, not the .44 mag, I wrote it the wrong way round, which is what you are saying here. My meaning was that the same charge will have slightly less pressure in the .44 WCF than in the .44 Mag with the same bullet.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Carlsen Highway »

w30wcf wrote:I have used PSB (Polyethylene Shot Buffer) in the .44-40 with cast bullets to replicate the early W.H.V (Winchester High Velocity) cartridge with good accuracy. I found that in addition to acting as a gas check under the cast bullet, it also resulted in more consistent velocities since the powder is held in a constant position. :D

Image

CAUTION: NOT FOR USE IN TOGGLE LINK RIFLES
CAUTION: DO NOT USE FILLERS WITH FAST BURNING POWDERS.

w30wcf
W30wcf,

Thanks for that, can I ask what size your cast bullets are, and your bore?

I have been back to the range again and retested my loads at 21 and 22 grains of H4227 and both turned in worse accuracy than in the groups shown above, both new groups looked the same at 50 yards as the target on the left. So I am not sure what to do from here.
My bullets seem to be all .430 sized and my bore is also .430. (I asked for .431 sized but this is what I got)

I have some Trailboss here but I cannot find anywhere where people have got better velocity than a handgun using it, so I am not attracted to the idea of using it. (My only other loading with Trailboss was to make subsonic loads for a .44 Magnum, and I was up to 9 grains and the bullet was still just under subsonic in that carbine)

The only thing I can think of is to try it slower, down in the 17 - 18 grains and see if accuracy improves.

I am after a load between the old blackpowder speed of 1300 fps up to as fast as a plain base cast bullet will go and still be accurate, so your load with the same powder I am using interests me.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Malamute »

Carlsen Highway wrote: Malamute, sorry I typed that wrong - my intention was to say that the .44-40 has more case volume, not the .44 mag, I wrote it the wrong way round, which is what you are saying here. My meaning was that the same charge will have slightly less pressure in the .44 WCF than in the .44 Mag with the same bullet.
Ah, makes more sense now. :D

I have always been surprised at the level of loads the old Lyman books had for 92's, but since they published them, they must not have felt the case was too thin or weak. Probably not wise to use them for too many loads at the level Lyman showed though. Pretty darned impressive for a cartridge devised in 1873 and gun designed in 1892 though.

I havent looked at their other manuals, but their test gun had a .432" groove diameter, which likely also helps mitigate pressures. One cant assume too much about groove diameters of old guns. New guns either come to think of it.

Id like to make some loads in roughly the same velocity range you are looking at, but in 44 mag. I'm wanting to try the Lyman 429215. The gas check helps with higher velocities, and it can be shot without it for lower velocities, according to several guys on cast boolits forum. Also want a 200 gr jacketed hollowpoint in the same velocity range.
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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by w30wcf »

Carlsen Highway,

Groove diameter in the Marlin is .428". I use .429" cast bullets. Before using the PSB I did try shooting the plain based bullets at 1,600 f.p.s. with 4227 and groups were in the 3-4" range at 50 yards. The rifle with the proper loads will shoot 1"- 1 1/2" 5 shot groups at that distance.

I decided to try PSB as a gas check and to eliminate airspace. PSB has worked well in other applications that I have tried it in and it did not disappoint in this application. :D

The bullet alloy was w.w. 2% tin (12bhn).

After dropping the powder charge I tap the case a few times on the side with the nose of the bullet to settle the powder. I then add the PSB. If I am loading a number of them, I run the PSB through the powder measure. Otherwise I use the .7CC scoop from the Lee kit. The PSB weighs 3.5 grs.

It will fill the case up well into the neck but compresses easily when the bullet is seated.
Works great!

A capacity load of Alliant RL7 also works well (about 25 grs. / 200 gr bullet) and generates about 1,450 f.p.s.
4198 Also works well.....similar to RL 7 for a capacity loading.

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Re: .44-40 and lead bullets - case 'filler'

Post by Tactical Lever »

Terry Murbach wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:
Terry Murbach wrote:WHERE IN THE WORLD did you get that loading data ?? Some of it is eight [ 8 ! ] grains above data I developed in a pressure gun ten or twelve years ago.
And so it goes...
Found hotter loads than that. The loads you are referencing would be BP equivalent I imagine. However, in a new Rossi you can go much higher. Same gun is offered in
.454 Casull, so that gives you some idea of the pressures the gun will take.
IT IS NOT THE GUN, it is the gasket. And having one of the first Rossi 454's I've seen what happens to it after using it to shoot up a few thousand rounds of seconds at the plant.
I would not worry about a brass gasket failing in a fully enclosed chamber, just the same way I would not think of a cork head gasket blowing out just because it will not withstand engine compression. It takes North of 70 000 PSI to flow brass. I am not talking about hitting the 65 000 PSI of the Casull rounds, but more of a general comment on the strength of the guns. Considering those loads being half that pressure (or probably a fair bit less) would not concern me.
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