powders for the .357 rifle

[KWK]

My son has acquired a .357 carbine, and I'll begin reloading for this round after a long hiatus. What powders are others using for this cartridge?

Back then I used AA #9, but it seemed it could go nuclear on you with small increments in charge. I suspect H110/W296 could have the same gotcha, true?

Thumbing through my two load books, it looks as if 4227 and 2400 are good choices, at least for powders readily available around here. Does one burn cleaner than the other in the .357? I've used neither one.

I should add I'm looking for a powder for full power loads. I've fast powders on hand with which I can load down to .38 Spl levels.

Thanks for any suggestions,
Karl

[TedH]

Hodgdon LilGun is tops in my opinion, the least for the 180 gr cast bullets I shoot.

[J Miller]

Years ago when I had a Marlin 1894 CS in .357 I used the same powders for it that I used for my revolvers. Unique, Blue Dot, 2400 and occasionally Herco.
The 2400 always gave me consistent loads no matter what bullet weight I used or just how hot it got out in the AZ desert where I spent most of my time.

Should I ever get another .357 carbine that's the first powder I'll start my load experiments with.

Joe

[sore shoulder]

Hodgdon LilGun is tops in my opinion, the least for the 180 gr cast bullets I shoot.

Lil'gun definitely. 12 years ago or so Hobie did a lot of work ups with it and I did a lot of my own. It works very very well with 180-200gr cast from a 16" barrel. My Marlin 94 was boringly accurate.

[ollogger]

After loading the 357 for years, its LIL GUN for me now, H 110 is 2nd place



ollogger

[Blaine]

Blue Dot

[jnyork]

Lil Gun here, vastly superior to any other.

[KWK]

I hadn't noticed Lil' Gun in Hodgdon's data. It's only in the pistol section, not the rifle (which only means they didn't bother to chronograph it in the longer barrel). It looks as if it needs heavier bullets to do its magic, but that's the sort of bullet weight for which I'd want full pressure. Thanks for the recommendation.

I just looked at Alliant's site, for their 2400 data. What's this 300-MP they now have? The fps looks to be in the "too good to be true" category. Has any one here tried it?

[yooper2]

Does your son have a 357 revolver?
I subscribe to the notion that if you have a sixgun/rifle combo they should share common loads. I have had poor luck with Lil' gun in revolvers, granted none of mine have a barrel over 5.5", maybe that powder likes a longer tube. I've always been happy with 2400 and Keith's finest. 4227 has always seemed more at home in the Maximum to me. Three otherwise nice 357 leverguns have passed through here because they did not shoot (or in one case feed) the loads that my sixguns like. I do not want to have a rifle laying around that needs bullets sized a different diameter than I am shooting in my sixguns. Likewise for powder choice. My 357's are all on call for serious work, I expect any ammo at hand to work in any of them and perform well.
Of course if your son does not have sixgun so chambered none of this is of any consequence.




Eric

[KWK]

No, I gave up on magnum revolvers many years ago--too much flash and bang.

In another direction: I doubt VV is available around here, but the data for N110 in my Lyman book looks nifty. The same with the data on the VV site. It works well over the full range of bullets weights in the .357, and it's single base, which in my less than encyclopedic experience, has always been predictable stuff.

[jdad]

VV N110 low blast, no flash, and very clean. You can also get much higher velocities if you like pushing it.

[Blaine]

H-110/296 in max loads looked like a dang blowtorch, and leaves lots of unburnt powder, for me anyway (160, and 180 hardcast, and heavy Lee Factory crimp die).

[Nath]

2400 for me.
4227 was great with 180grn bullets.



N.

[gundownunder]

I use Trailboss for my low loads.
I started with 2400 for full loads, then went to 2205 (4227), I'm now using Lil'Gun. I never tried Win.296/110 mainly because I have heard it is fussy about load density and also needs a magnum primer to make it reliable. I have also heard good things about an Alliant powder called MP300, supposed to be the same as Lil'gun, but I haven't tried it.
I should mention that all my full house loads are with heavy bullets, 175/180gr.

[TedH]

No, I gave up on magnum revolvers many years ago--too much flash and bang.

In another direction: I doubt VV is available around here, but the data for N110 in my Lyman book looks nifty. The same with the data on the VV site. It works well over the full range of bullets weights in the .357, and it's single base, which in my less than encyclopedic experience, has always been predictable stuff.

N110 is superb in the 357. I gave up on it after going through a pound because of lack of availability locally.

[Tycer]

Lil'gun for 180+ and 2400 for full power lighter weight bullets and Unique for plinking loads and Bullseye for subsonic loads.

[earlmck]

I've shot gallons of H110 (or more correctly, I'm still using Hodgdon's surplus version of it from before they got it newly manufactured) through revolvers and I don't need anything better. I was interested that the Lil' Gun looks so good on the Hodgdon site: it is getting the velocity at noticeably lower pressure. Also I see that Hodgdon uses only the magnum primer no matter what the powder. I had a couple instances where a standard primer failed to ignite the H110 before I learned to use only magnum primers with it, but I'm sure you wouldn't really need such for several of the powders Hodgdon lists, such as HP38, Universal, Longshot. I've also been using magnum primers with Lil' Gun just because I assumed that the ball powder needs the magnum, though I haven't been using it in revolver cartridges. I tried (and didn't like) lighter loads using H110, so I use it for full-power loads. If I want a lighter load I use a faster powder (in my case Green Dot because I have so much of it, though there are better choices if you are buying new...)

Another big consideration is powder availability. Looks like H110 is hard to get at this time (and has been for a couple of years) while Lil' Gun is readily available. CFE Pistol and Universal also seem to be readily available while 2400 and Unique and Blue Dot are more iffy. If I didn't have gallons of old H110 and Green Dot to use up and had to buy new, I'd be thinking Lil' Gun and Universal (or CFE pistol) for meeting both ends of the pistol powder spectrum, thinking mostly of their availability and very acceptable performance and their ease of metering.

I've only been loading 357 for the rifle for about 3 years, and I have surrendered the idea of using the same load for each. My best revolver load uses a 180 grain plain-base bullet (it shoots the gas check just as well but why use a gas check if you don't need it?) loaded quite a lot longer than will even begin to feed through the Rossi rifle. The rifle, however, gets velocities that take advantage of the gas check version of my 180 grain bullet, but it needs the standard COAL to work. My surplus H110 has been working just fine in both loadings, but if I had to buy new powder I'd be converting over to Lil' Gun for the better availability.

Also the revolver shoots anything the rifle will shoot and I could go that route, but I have my favorite revolver load and am not going to change at this late date. So I have loads that work great in the rifle that will also function in the revolver. And another batch of loads that only work in the revolver. Such is life.

[2X22]

I've used W296 for almost 40 years with lots of dead deer and other critters, and little bitty groups.

[KWK]

I visited the 3 stores in my area which carry smokeless. The first had only 4227 (the older Canadian stuff at that) among those powders discussed here. The next had that and H110. The third was the charm; it had H110, 4227, and Lil' Gun. I was scratching my chin when I spied a jar of low speed, double base VihtaVouri. I asked the owner about N110 and he said he was placing a powder order Monday. He'll try to get two jars of the stuff for me. We'll see, in about a week. If that falls though I'll get either the 4227 (for which I have more load data) or the Lil' Gun (which seems to be well liked here). Thanks for the comments, folks.

Karl

[Mike Armstrong]

I've also had very good results with Lil Gun and like it because it performs well in three of the ctgs. I reload: .357 rifle, .410 shotgun, and .22 Hornet, all of them MGM custom barrels on a pre-S&W G2 Contender carbine frame. Main problem with it is that here in So Cal it is hard to find--too many lil gunners here, I guess....

[earlmck]

Powder Valley http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/index.html which is one of the big distributors, has had Lil' Gun available pretty much all the time for the past year or so I believe. Right now they are out of H110 in the 8# jug but have it in the 1#. But W296 is the identical powder and is available in all sizes. IMR 4227 is available in 1# can but not 8#. But all these are back-orderable which I think means they are manufactured on this continent and so not subject to the sea shipping restrictions which are keeping us from obtaining adequate supplies of many of our old favorites. Those overseas powders tend to be listed as "out of stock, no backorder".

VV110 is not available from them when I looked tonight .

Anyway, if they have it your LGS can certainly get it. And if you want to order enough to make the hazmat fee not too onerous (get together with some friends?) they are ready to ship you these powders today. Or Monday, more likely.

[KWK]

Thanks Earl.

With Lil' Gun and 4227 on his shelves, I'm sure I'll be able to avoid the hazmat fee entirely. If he can't get the N110, he'll probably know sometime tomorrow and phone me, then I'll go pick up one of the others.

All the 4227 I came across said made in Canada. I think I read it's now H4227 in an IMR jar, that is, made in Australia. If so, they don't sell much 4227 around here, for all three stores had a jar of the Canadian stuff.

Here's a curious find: I just pulled my old (pre-Hodgdon) IMR brown booklet of load data. For the .357 in a pistol, they tested 800X and found it pretty much the equal of 4227 across all bullet weights. In the rifle data, though, they didn't test it, and the newer Hodgdon data ignores it as well. Hmmmm.

[jackruff]

2400 for me.
.

Me too.

[GoatGuy]

2400 for me.
.

Me too.

Me three, ...and being an old timer and a Keith, Skelton disciple, newer powders hold no real fascination. Why try something new if old standbys have always done what's been needed. If it can't be done with Unique, 2400 or Bullseye I don't much care to fool with it.

[JerryB]

AMEN GOATGUY AMEN!!!!!!!!

[Model 52B]

I'm a fan of 296 in a .357 rifle.

I get an average velocity of 2,170 fps in a 24" barrel with a published load of 20 grains of 296 and a 125 gr XTP. SD in velocity is in the 15-17 fps range with a WSP primer and my tang sighted Rossi 92 shoots 2.5" groups at 100 yards with this load.

I've also used 296 with 158 gr bullets with published loads of 12.4 to 16.0 grains and I haven't had any issues with squibs or pressure excursions.

In my experience, a max load of 296 will get you about 50 fps more velocity in a rifle than a max load of 2400 with a 125 gr to 158 grain bullet, and 296 produces better accuracy on average.

2400 has an edge with 180 gr bullets and that's the only weight where I use it for the .357 Magnum.

---

I'm also a fan of Unique in the .357, but for 125 gr and 158 gr loads in 2" to 4" barrels, or for low pressure cast bullet loads in revolvers or rifles.

4.0 - 5.0 gr of Unique under a 158 gr LSWC makes a great target load.

---

IMR 4227 and Lil'Gun are great powders in the .45 Colt, but they are only "ok" in the .357 Magnum.

[KWK]

I went to pick up my son from a JRTOC shoot. The place is 50 miles from home, so it's not one I visit often. In looking over the selection of powders there, I decided to get it over with. I picked up a jar of a Vectan medium speed powder for the lighter loads; he said it burns as clean as the VV stuff he also sells. He had neither 4227 nor Lil'Gun, so a jar of H110 (W296) also made the trip home. The shop that said they could get N110 never called back, so it must be unavailable after all.

I didn't even know Vectan was available in the US. If it proves remarkable, I'll report back here.

The H110 I assume I'll want to keep shy of max loads. It's not ideal but I think we'll be through the lb this summer and then try something else. I see Vectan has a powder similar to N110; perhaps that will be worth a try sometime.

Karl

[earlmck]

We are just starting to see some of the Vectans showing up here, and are not familiar with them and don't generally have them in our loading books. So looking forward to your reports, KWK. Is the "medium speed" one you got the one numbered D036.03?

And with H110 I don't see you needing anything better for your max loads. Remember to use the magnum primers for it, though.

[m.wun]

Don't need mag primers with Lil gun where you might with h110.

[jdad]

I went to pick up my son from a JRTOC shoot. The place is 50 miles from home, so it's not one I visit often. In looking over the selection of powders there, I decided to get it over with. I picked up a jar of a Vectan medium speed powder for the lighter loads; he said it burns as clean as the VV stuff he also sells. He had neither 4227 nor Lil'Gun, so a jar of H110 (W296) also made the trip home. The shop that said they could get N110 never called back, so it must be unavailable after all.

I didn't even know Vectan was available in the US. If it proves remarkable, I'll report back here.

The H110 I assume I'll want to keep shy of max loads. It's not ideal but I think we'll be through the lb this summer and then try something else. I see Vectan has a powder similar to N110; perhaps that will be worth a try sometime.

Karl

The local Cabela's has plenty of VV powders regularly on their shelves.

[Griff]

I load very little .357 Mag for either handgun or either of my carbines. I tend to stick with 38+P loads for anything jacketed and 38 Special loads for cast. For the cast I like IMR's PB powder, and have almost exclusively used Unique or 700X for +P & Magnum loads, (not having loaded any for over 10 years, my personal data would be a "little" dated).

Barrel length has a serious impact on powder performance, I believe more so in magnum cartridges, than in their "Special" versions. I've noted with interest that the Lyman 49th Edition has "RIFLE" loads recommendations for the 3 most popular pistol cartridges found in rifles and carbines, (I do wish they'd have included .38Spl & 44Spl data). I also note that they have far fewer powders listed in their rifle data. And while they use the same min/max numbers, velocities and their notations on which powder and charge gave them the best accuracy potential changes with the change from pistol to carbine use. If you don't have a copy of this reloading manual, I highly recommend it for this reason alone.

[KWK]

Griff, I have Lyman 48. It's the only purchased load book I have, but I also use the freebies distributed by the powder makers, eg. Hodgdon's. As with Hodgdon's .357 rifle data, Lyman didn't test the fastest powders in the rifle. I think they were worried about the small charges not making enough gas to be sure to get a jacketed bullet out the bore. However, Hodgdon did test the small charges of Titegroup in the rifle.

Earl, we loaded up some starting 125 gn XTP JHP loads over the Vectan Ba9 today. Their listed starting loads are fully 20% below max, 8 vs 10 gn, and knowing the carbine was designed for .44 Mag, I chose to start at 8.5 gn. The speed was modest, 1360 fps from an 18.5" barrel, and fairly uniform, although I only chrono'd 5 loads, +/- 7 fps. The burn was very sooty. This must have been a very low pressure; Vectan's lab data (standard 6" CIP pressure barrel) listed 1350 fps with the 8.0 gn!

The charge and fps in the manual looked familiar. Sure enough, I checked the VV N340 data (which I'd looked over a few days before) and the max loads are identical, both charge and fps. The owner of the shop who sold me the Vectan had poured a bit of each of these out to show me both. They look to be the same (a fine, short stick), but the VV looks as if it's dyed a greenish color, while the Vectan is black.

I went and checked Vectan's latest pistol powder, Ba6.5, against VV, and I find that the N110 loads are also identical at max. I have to believe Vectan is buying some of their powders from VV. That or their lab techs are the laziest on earth.

I wonder if VV is using something other than graphite as the anti-static coating in its own powders. Perhaps they coat the stuff they send (if they are in fact the same base) to Vectan with graphite, which has been long used and is fairly inexpensive. Perhaps the soot we found is graphite not fully burned at low pressures? Just idle speculation, here.

It'll be a few weeks, but I'll report the results of running 10.0 gn Ba9 through the carbine. I don't have WSPM on hand, so the H110 will have to wait until I'm next by a gun store. I'm not worried about its performance, but I have learned to approach max loads with such powders with extreme caution.

Karl

[KWK]

To the Lil' Gun users: I see there is some concern about the heat these rounds create, possibly causing throat erosion. Now, leverguns usually don't get so many rounds per minute though them, so this is likely not an issue, but I thought I'd ask.

[gundownunder]

KWK, I don't know if it does any damage in the leverguns but I know 10 rounds will heat up the barrel a lot more than either 2205 or 2400 does. I would think top strap cutting could become an issue in a revolver, with sustained use.
I will probably go back to 2205 after my current can of Lil'gun, mainly due to supply issues.
I know the step up from 2400 to 2205 made a difference for me on the 200 yd rams, but I didn't notice any real difference going from 2205 to Lil'gun so for me 2205 is probably as good as it gets without moving up to a bigger gun.

[Tycer]

To the Lil' Gun users: I see there is some concern about the heat these rounds create, possibly causing throat erosion. Now, leverguns usually don't get so many rounds per minute though them, so this is likely not an issue, but I thought I'd ask.

I did a throat slug of my Win 94 357 when I first got it and then another after several thousand rounds of 207 grain cast bullets over heavy doses of Lil'Gun and the difference was negligible. I've got a few hundred 180s through my new Smith 66 with no cutting.

[Bronco]

Started reloading 38 spl. and 357's in 1965. Used Bullseye for low powered and 2400 for the hot ones. Gor tired of readjusting dies between the two cases so got the brilliant idea of only using 367 cases for both loads . Just kidding about the brilliant part. Anyway stuck with those powders for years until I could not get Bullseye about 7 years ago. Switched to WST for low powered loads, an almost a straight across change and still with 2400 for the hot. Other powders may be better ie. 110, 296, but I am plenty content with the 2400. Works good in the marlin also.
By the way I think WST is actually a little cleaner than Bullseye and I use it everywhere I used to run with the bull.

A rather worded reply but thanks for the patience

John

[BigSky56]

Have not loaded for a rifle but will say 2400 is the most accurate out of pistols I have tried, from 158 to 180's the recipe for 158 & 173 were proved out by Doug Wesson in the mid 30's, In the articles section of this forum is the loads used by Wesson for his hunts. danny

[Homer]

Blue Dot

This BlaineG guy is pretty darn smart. Blue Dot gives the shooter the best balance between handgun and carbine performance with the least amount of powder used. Speeds range from right around 1,300 fps in a handgun to 500+ more fps in a carbine. And because it takes less Blue Dot to reach good velocities than most other powders used for 357 Magnum, you get more shots per pound. Sure you can use other powders to squeeze out every bit of inconsequential velocity from your rifle, but it won't shoot as good in your handgun. Or you can balance between the handgun and rifle, but use more powder and shoot less. Or, as that smart fellow referenced above says, just use Blue Dot and have it all.

I have been loading my 357 Magnums with Blue Dot for around 35 years. I occasionally stray off the reservation when lured by a big dust up about another new wonder powder, but always find my way back home to something that works for less and is easily acquired.

Have fun.

[KWK]

My son and I have been loading for his 77/357 for over a year now, and I thought an update for this thread was due.

Vectan is sold locally. We picked up Ba-9 and Ba-6.5. The data from Vectan is bizarre. It is identical to VV's data for N340 and N110, respectively. It sure don't burn like it! Nor does it look the same. With both, full charge loads from the Vectan data didn't in our 18.5 carbine make the fps Vectan claims from a CIP test barrel, which is only 6". The Ba-9 is giving pretty uniform speeds and burns reasonably cleanly once you approach max, but the speeds are nothing special.

The Ba-6.5 is garbage. We stopped N110 development under 158 XTP at 1800 fps, which may be a bit hot, but the gun is good for a .44 Mag, so we're not worried. The N110 is pretty clean. In contrast, the Ba-6.5 gives only 1350 with a compressed charge and is the dirtiest burn I've ever seen. The bore is coated in unburned granules. We're going to light this stuff off in an open pan. It's not worth wasting bullets and primers on. Clearly it's too slow for a .357 Mag.

I suspect Vectan tried to blend powders to match VV powders and then brazenly copied the VV data. Somebody in the blending lab really goofed, though.

A truly delightful load came from ancient (made in Scotland) Solo 1000. I had a pound which a friend gave me in the '90s, I think it was. We used the old Royal Scot max load for a 110 JHP and got 1675 fps and about the cleanest burn I've ever seen. It was a fun plinking load.

We're just starting development of 125 XTP loads over CFE Pistol. We started at Hodgdon's max load and barely got in 18.5" what Hodgdon reported in 10". We'll work up from there. (Hodgdon's data is to the SAAMI piezo spec and so will be slower than older CUP or modern CIP data.)

Karl

[jdad]

Karl,

You found the reason I switched to N110 from 2400. Higher velocities if needed and a whole lot less flash, blast, and soot.

[FWiedner]

I use 2400, but I also only shoot 158gr bullets.

I tried Lil' Gun but it just burns too hot.

[Old Ironsights]

+1 Fred.

For GP, (not the gun) I load 2400 &/or H110 - whichever I have handy.

For Whompum, I load LilGun.

IMO/EX LilGun, while a better performer, also heats up the gun in ways 2400/H110 don't - especially trying to run a full power plate rack.

I don't like heating up my barrel unnecessarily, so, 2400 for plinking/small stuff and LilGun for maximum performance from 1 or 2 shots.

(I use 2400 so much I have about 24lbs of the stuff - to 6 lbs of LilGun...)

[gundownunder]

Heck, we resurrected an old one here.
I recently switched from Lil'gun to 296 as I was not happy with the heating of the barrel that Lil'gun produced. 296 seems to give the same performance with less powder and much less heat. MP300 is said to be good, but we have trouble getting a steady supply of Alliant powders here in west Oz.

[KWK]

Yes, I know I resurrected an older thread, but I did say I was doing so, and this was because back then I mentioned: "Vectan... If it proves remarkable, I'll report back here." It was remarkable, but not in a positive sense.

The N110 is now available locally, which is why I have some. This fall we'll finally crack open the H110 and compare it to the N110. I suspect we'll be staying with the N110. "... I'll report back here."

Karl

[Buck Elliott]

H-110/W-296 have no "unpleasant surprises", at pressures from 30,000 to 65,000 psi (.454 Casual range..) Li'l Gun behaves pretty much the same, and is better for heavier (180+) bullets in the .357.
Neither powder works efficiently with light-weight bullets, giving the "flash-bang" effect..

[piller]

H-110/W-296 have no "unpleasant surprises", at pressures from 30,000 to 65,000 psi (.454 Casual range..) Li'l Gun behaves pretty much the same, and is better for heavier (180+) bullets in the .357.
Neither powder works efficiently with light-weight bullets, giving the "flash-bang" effect..

I don't have a .357, but my results with the .480 Ruger mirror this exactly.

[AJMD429]

Lil'gun for 180+ and 2400 for full power lighter weight bullets and Unique for plinking loads and Bullseye for subsonic loads.

What bullet weights were you shooting subsonic...?

[GunnyMack]

I tried cfePistol for my 41 mag Henry, wasn't all that impressed. Low velocities not real accurate.

Lilgun, Using Nosler, Sierra and Xtps all 210's. NOTE: Hornady does NOT recommend the XTP FOR HIGHER VELOCITIES! I called and asked them, but Nosler and Sierra say their 210's will work just fine at rifle velocities.
Lilgun however produced 1800+ fps, is very accurate.
Plus I can use it in my hornet, bee, 410, 28 ga and my 450 bushmaster so I bought 8 lbs.

[Tycer]

Lil'gun for 180+ and 2400 for full power lighter weight bullets and Unique for plinking loads and Bullseye for subsonic loads.

What bullet weights were you shooting subsonic...?

I have a plain based 207 grain mold by Mountain Molds I designed for that first 360 Dan Wesson '94 I eventually sold to 86er. Ran them between 1800-1900. Works a treat for cat sneeze loads. Do you cast? I'll loan it to you.

[glee]

HP 38