Shotgun Self-Defense loads for Today?

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:46 pm

Levergunners,

Things are changing in the world and many of us are making changes or preparations in our daily routines, planning, and (frankly) home and personal armament. I am reconsidering what I have formerly believed to be the best shotgun defense round.

In a previous thread entitled "#6 Shot or Slugs for Home Defense? ," I shared my view that the #4 Buck is the best way to go, based upon what I learned from some leading California law enforcement agencies, including a large Central Valley Police and Sheriff's Department and most if not all surrounding agencies.

It still stands to reason that, for close up in-building tactical use, the #4 Buck in a 12 gauge is effective and is less likely to penetrate through walls and possibly injure or kill other officers, innocent bystanders, pets, and the like. In fact, that was the main reason, or at least one of the main reasons, that this load was agreed upon by most or all law enforcement agencies in my area. As far as I know, they still might be using this load.

Having said that, I am now thinking about the possibility of one having to defend their loved ones in a larger scenario, where the assailant(s) is not in such as enclosed area such as an apartment or house.

There are obvious legal arguments that could be raised here, as well as common sense ones - such as knowing your target and what is behind it, behind absolutely sure that deadly force is needed rather than retreating to safety (if possible), and so on.

This post is not about that. It is about the use of an effective shotgun loading that will retain enough energy at even, say 20 yards, that will carry through 12 inches of its intended target for stopping a deadly attack.

A previous article ("#6 Shot or Slugs for Home Defense?") is still viewable on this forum:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=23881

My specific question, hopefully to some frequent shotgunners, has to do with the penetration and effectiveness of this 12 gauge load at 20-25 yards:
A standard 2 3/4" 12 gauge 00 Buck load at some 1375 fps
By the way, this is a commonly available load

The above load is chosen over a 3 inch "magnum" load because I believe it is a good balance between power and more manageable recoil for quicker follow-up shooting in a pump gun.

My prospective switch from #4 Buck to 00 Buck is being partly influenced by these articles that I have place into my online archives, downloadable as searchable PDF format documents:

RifleAndShotgunEffectiveness_Marshall_30-30.pdf
https://app.box.com/s/e79qf7gxvp4pnjd5hlab2klm1ctbkg6w
Note: Server fixed. File should be available. At the end of the article it says this:
"For the buckshot results, the stopping power rating is based on at least 6 of the 9-pellet load, at least 9 of the 12-pellet load, and at least 18 of the 27-pellet load to impact the torso. The choice of the minimum number of pellets to be considered as a “result” was an arbitrary one. However, the collector of the data has the right to be the establisher of the One-shot Stop criteria.

"In terms of effectiveness, note that all the 00 Buck loads, whether “tactical” or full power, or whether 9-pellet or 12-pellet, are more effective than the Number #4 Buck loads. The only exception is the 34-pellet, 3-inch magnum load of #4 Buck."

(Bold highlighting was done by me - JdeF)

Top Self Defense Shotgun Loads.pdf
https://app.box.com/s/f76pnzkfhcsa39qoqxvi9vpnzmw06s83
(Above also still found here)
http://www.prep-blog.com/2012/11/09/top ... gun-loads/

OK, given the fact that the 00 Buck penetrates too much for crowded, close-in indoor use, let's set that aside. For tactical outdoor use, what do you think?

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:58 pm

I have a Hawk 981 12 ga. (Chinese 870 clone, more or less), 18.5" barrel, Improved Cylinder choke. At 25 yards I can count on at least 7 of 8 00 pellets in a load hitting a man-sized torso target; at 50 yards it will shoot slugs in to groups you can cover with your hand. If any mishap occurs to me when I am out and about with this gun, I feel assured it won't happen because I wasn't well-armed.

Richardx · Post by **Richardx** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:01 pm

John

In my experience I have never had good luck "patterning" 00 buck but with #4 I knew where it was going, in one 870 with a 28" modified choke barrel I could only put 2-3 pellets of 00 into refrigerator size piece of cardboard from less than 12 yards same gun knocked down ducks with #4 from much further distances with ease.
My particular gun? i don't know.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:07 pm

Good to know. I need to test my current 00 loads in my old (but reliable) 18.5" Cylinder choke 12 ga. "Riot 7" (Hi-Standard K120 18-7) pump gun with its folding slug sights. This used to be my stakeout piece. I had it satin chromed several years ago.

Right now, it is refitted with a conventional stock for its current intended use.
And yes, this configuration is still legal in California, since there is no folding stock or foregrip or external magazine. For hunting, however, one must insert a magazine plug to limit the rounds.

rodeo kid · Post by **rodeo kid** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:44 pm

We keep 2 shotguns loaded(along with 2 pistols) in our bedroom. My wife has a 12ga Pioneer arms coach gun, and I have a Ithaca 12ga self defense pump. Mine is loaded with a OO buck, followed by a buck and ball, and then a slug, then that repeats for a total of 6. She has 1 OO buck and 1 buck and ball. Each shotgun has a stock sleeve with 2 OO buck and three slugs. We feel confident this will work for us if needed. No one else lives with us, we are out in the country, so we don't worry about wall penetration. God Bless.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:19 pm

I think I would prefer number 4 buck also.
Maybe have a slug or some buckshot handy just in case...

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:32 pm

Thanks, all.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:34 pm

I still use a 20 ga with #4 buck for inside. If I need to extend my range outside I'll go with a rifle.

You hear stories of the racking of a pumps slide causing miscreants to freeze in their tracks. Can't say that is true, however, the sound of a levergun chambering a 45-70 did give one pause.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:50 pm

I have 2 uses for a shotgun, shooting running hogs at short range and for home defense. I use the same load for both. I am a fan of the Remington 870 and #00 buckshot combo.

No kids or unwanted relatives in the house, and I know where the wife will be.

Inside 25 yards, (9)or (12) .33 cal pellets at 1300fps is not a load that can be ignored or shaken off.

Target subjects tend to fall down and stay there.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:57 pm

The tightest patterning stuff I've run across, and the load I carry in my 870s, is a Federal Flitecontrol 00 Buck.
It can hold inside a B27 silhouette out to about 40 yards.
The difference between it & "the rest" is quite substantial.

Consistently tight through a number of different shotguns.
Denis

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:08 pm

DPris wrote:The tightest patterning stuff I've run across, and the load I carry in my 870s, is a Federal Flitecontrol 00 Buck.
It can hold inside a B27 silhouette out to about 40 yards.
The difference between it & "the rest" is quite substantial.

Consistently tight through a number of different shotguns.
Denis

Hmmmm...

And, thanks again to all.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:05 am

Federal Flite Control, and Hornady TAP (uses the same technology).

Both give tight (one hole at 10', about a 4" pattern at 20 yards, all 9 pellets still on target at 30 yards) patterns.

You can use standard buck, but if you absolutely need to ensure the guy you're aiming at is who you hit, that is what you use.

Any buck or birdshot, as well as any pistol round will overpenetrate in a house. Even 5.56 JHPs will, though less than 00 buck will. Aim carefully.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:44 am

There are different Federal FC 00 Buck loads, for LE, reduced recoil/velocity, for any old body, etc.

All I've tried have been uniformly better by a wide margin through several scatterguns than any other conventional 00 Buck load.
Have not used the TAP, but if the wad's similar, should also be superior.

During a VEPR-12 shotgun test a couple months back, one Federal FC LE load patterned 9 pellets at 2 1/2 inches at 15 yards, cylinder bore "choke".

Next best was a standard Federal 9-pellet 00 Buck load at 9 1/2 inches.

The difference is typically that dramatic.

Fed #4, by the way, spread 34 pellets out to 18 1/4 inches.

Denis

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:45 am

The FC reduced recoil is the most commonly found one I've seen.

We use the FC-LE load at work, or did till we pulled our lethal shotguns (for the moment).

The Hornady TAP actually predates the Flite Control, but it uses the same exact tech. I shot single-hole groups at 10 yards from a NIB Benelli Nova back in 2001 or so when the stuff came out.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:10 am

I would first suggest not basing anything on the so-called one shot stop, or other info from Marshall.

There is some good ammunition information for a variety of types/calibers including shotguns here,

https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition

Have been several discussions on that forum involving people that have both used various loads firsthand, and investigated them and observed autopsies etc.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:50 am

Some of the comments about patterns here are interesting. I've never seen any pattern issues with 00 from 18-20" smooth bores. I have a couple boxes of mil 00 . When it warms up a bit I'll fire a couple and a couple domestic 00 just to see what happens.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:33 am

I'm partial to BB - especially in .410

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:49 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Some of the comments about patterns here are interesting. I've never seen any pattern issues with 00 from 18-20" smooth bores. I have a couple boxes of mil 00 . When it warms up a bit I'll fire a couple and a couple domestic 00 just to see what happens.

Thanks! Have not been able to break away yet to the shotgun range.

I currently have just a handful of
Federal PowerShot F12700 00 Buck (1325fps)
and a good supply of
Estate 00 Buck I127N00 (also 1325 fps).

The Estate was obtained at a good price; customer reviews (for what that is worth) seemed to be favorable.

gcs · Post by **gcs** » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:32 am

I've done a lot of reading on this subject, and a lot of seemingly qualified "experts" are recommending regular or reduced recoil #1 buck for self defense ammo. Better penetration compared to #4 and less over penetration then 00.
#4 doesn't have the ummpf to penetrate heavy clothing reliably, and the reduced recoil makes it easier to handle.
But.., it's hard to find.
I've gone to reduced recoil, 2 3/4, 00 buck as that was second in the opinions, and is easier to find.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:02 pm

gcs wrote:I've done a lot of reading on this subject...#1 buck for self defense ammo...[is] hard to find...

Me too, lately, and thus this thread.

I managed to purchase some #1 Buck, which as you said is not all that abundant:
Sellier & Bellot 1 Buck W2095B, 1214 fps (.30 caliber pellets).

The S&B is a good brand and it seems to be a bit more available than some others in that offering, but you don't see a lot of #1 Buck out there. Since I want to practice with what I would be using in emergencies, I have tentatively settled on 00 Buck for that reason and these considerations:
1) Most readily available of the "Defense Rounds" at a reasonable price

2) It emulates the striking power of a .357 Magnum 125 grain round, without the hollowpoint. On the other hand, it is lead, so I would imagine that it expands a bit and has, as you have said, penetration capabilities, even at an extended range.

My observations so far:
#1 Buck, .30 caliber, striking at 1214 fps muzzle (multipe
00 Buck, .36 caliber, striking at 1325 fps muzzle (multiple bullets)
.357 Mag, 125 gr factory +- 1450 fps muzzle

But I'm still cogitating on the matter!

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:27 pm

I wouldn't compare 00 Buck pellets to a .357.
I wouldn't expect 00 Buck pellets to expand in soft tissue, unless striking a bone, and then it'd depend on the hardness of the pellet.

And, for many of us, the patterning is as important as the power.
I prefer tight patterns to extend ranges, and full-power loads, for the same reason.
Best performance over a wide range of situations.

I do not live in an apartment, so my situation is only my own.

Denis

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:47 pm

DPris wrote:I wouldn't compare 00 Buck pellets to a .357.
I wouldn't expect 00 Buck pellets to expand in soft tissue, unless striking a bone, and then it'd depend on the hardness of the pellet.

I shoulda said, "approaches..." but used the wrong word in my haste to keep up with my fingers. Like they say in the movies, "It's complicated." And again, the factor changes as more than one pellet hits the target (hopefully). But your point about soft tissue is certainly valid.

DPris wrote:And, for many of us, the patterning is as important as the power.
I prefer tight patterns to extend ranges, and full-power loads, for the same reason.
Best performance over a wide range of situations...
Denis

Good point, and that is where I have very little input, so I throw it out to those who know more. You will note that I gave the specific ID of those shotgun rounds that I am considering for self-defense - just for that reason.

When I carried #4 Buck the patterning was not as critical with all them there little pellets at close ranges, and besides the ammo was supplied. But I am moving away from that in my personal life.

Thank you for your comments. Looking forward to any tests, unless I can get free and make it to the rifle range up by Coarsegold.

In your tests, did you try any of those Estate brand loads?

I am hoping that I don't have to invest again in a big load of Federals, with all of the stuff I have on hand. There is not much call for bird hunting or even squirrel shooting here with 00 Buck.

But your update so far seems to be leading me to using the Federal brand, unless I can get similar patterning with what I have on hand.

I have to acknowledge that Federal has been my favorite personal defense brand - its earlier Nyclad .38 Specials for a lightweight .38 snubbie, then HydraShok, and these days their HST 230 grain .45 ACP hollowpoints for my everyday carry. They seem to stay ahead of the curve.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:56 pm

I have never done anything with the Estate brand, but I'd be astounded if you got anything even close to what the FC stuff does with it.

The FC is slightly less effective in terms of tight patterning through a Vang ported barrel, but through everything else I've tried it in, there's nothing else that compares.
Noting again that I have not tried the TAP Murph referred to.
Denis

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:58 pm

Thanks, Denis and MrMurphy -

That information, and Denis' reply to my PM, locks it in for me. Now to find some Federal 00 FC-LE loads...

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:47 pm

If you've shot FC, you've basically shot TAP. Same performance, same shot cup giving the tight groups.

I just mentioned it in case you have issues finding FC but do find TAP, it will perform similarly.

I've shot some Estate 00 as well as S&B. Typical hallway howitzer performance, at 10-15 yards you're going to have a decent pattern but not the one big hole patterns of FC.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:07 am

Great follow-up Mr. Murphy. Much appreciated.

Ordered a mess of Federal FC 2 3/4" 12ga. 00 Buck greeting cards this evening.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:30 am

Considering where you live (my condolences, I escaped in 2000) a pump or semi 12ga with five to seven rounds gives you about the best warm greeting, with friends along, you're going to get at close range. Mesa Tactical makes the best shell holders on the gun if you like fixed ones, Esstac make the Velcro "rip off" replaceable types (my favorite, changing ammo for me is a bit more likely).

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:21 am

I tried the frame-mounted carriers for several years, finally gave up.
They just got in the way.

But, that's only me.

I get by with Speedfeed stocks, at least a couple more rounds on board & those are not in the way.
Denis

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:45 am

MrMurphy wrote:Considering where you live (my condolences, I escaped in 2000) a pump or semi 12ga with five to seven rounds gives you about the best warm greeting, with friends along, you're going to get at close range. Mesa Tactical makes the best shell holders on the gun if you like fixed ones, Esstac make the Velcro "rip off" replaceable types (my favorite, changing ammo for me is a bit more likely).

I love my Riot 7 - 6 in the tube and one in the chamber. I believe that the K120 Riot 7 (Hi Standard) was made in the 60's; I don't think it was ever retooled after that. It was a very popular police shotgun at the time.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:27 pm

I bought a Hi-Standard at my first PD in '77.
Wish I'd kept it.

Denis

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:58 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:
MrMurphy wrote:Considering where you live (my condolences, I escaped in 2000) a pump or semi 12ga with five to seven rounds gives you about the best warm greeting, with friends along, you're going to get at close range. Mesa Tactical makes the best shell holders on the gun if you like fixed ones, Esstac make the Velcro "rip off" replaceable types (my favorite, changing ammo for me is a bit more likely).
I love my Riot 7 - 6 in the tube and one in the chamber. I believe that the K120 Riot 7 (Hi Standard) was made in the 60's; I don't think it was ever retooled after that. It was a very popular police shotgun at the time.

I love my 870 Tactical. Short bbl, ghost ring. I've got some ammo wallets on the sling (which I might change out....makes it hard to be agile with the aiming)

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:21 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:I'm partial to BB - especially in .410

For.410 I like #4buck. But for self defense I usually use slugs.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:47 pm

The mil 00 I have is made by Olin/Winchester and it's labeled military grade 00 buckshot in a brown box. I picked it up at Walmart of all places. I know nothing about it.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:55 pm

Not known for tight patterning.
Denis

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:42 pm

Just curious, has anyone here tried flechette rounds?

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:27 pm

They make holes further away, but tend to overpenetrate and not do as much damage as buck.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:29 pm

Yes.
And Dragon's Breath.
And chained ball.
And buck & ball.
And 12-gauge shotgun flares.
And 12-gauge blanks.
Denis

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:39 pm

Anybody ever fire a 12 gauge in an enclosed space like a room?
If the two choices were massive hearing loss, or life, and limb of course you pick self defense every single time.
There is a third.....12 gauge slugs/buckshot in factory loadings are +/- 1600 fps.
Do you really think close range effectiveness would be diminished if that MV was reduced to about half that, IE about the same as a standard .45 Colt round? And, the Db level is way lower.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:44 pm

Never fired a shotgun in an enclosed space.
Reducing velocity reduces transmitted energy, at any distance.

Reduced velocity/recoil loads are still effective at close distances.
Denis

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:18 pm

I know several people who have shotgunned other, very well deserving types at close range indoors.

Most of them barely remember then noise of the shot. Your brain tends to shut down very loud noises in incidents like that, going by personal recollections and extensive medical research.

Keep a pair of active hearing protection next to the gun. If you have time to get the long gun and chamber a round, you have the 2.5 seconds needed to put on earpro and flip the switch. They will not only augment your normal hearing but keep you from going deaf.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:23 am

It's the same general defensive mechanism that kicks in when the wife gets too loud.

Denis

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:05 pm

MrMurphy wrote:I know several people who have shotgunned other, very well deserving types at close range indoors.

Most of them barely remember then noise of the shot. Your brain tends to shut down very loud noises in incidents like that, going by personal recollections and extensive medical research.

Keep a pair of active hearing protection next to the gun. If you have time to get the long gun and chamber a round, you have the 2.5 seconds needed to put on earpro and flip the switch. They will not only augment your normal hearing but keep you from going deaf.

True auditory exclusion happens. But that is just cognitive. The damage done to the ear is still going to happen. I started keeping some sound amplifying/canceling headphones in the bedroom. On the one side I can hear better, and on the other I get to keep what I've got left.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:12 pm

As someone who has a hearing profile, I concur with the protection advice. Pelt or makes some nice stuff.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:18 am

I like #4 Buck for inside and would not hesitate to use OO Buck outside...... only difference is I use a 10 ga. not 12 ga. I can tell you from dog hunting in Alabama that OO will fully penetrate the chest cavity of a 125 to 150 pound deer. Probably will go through a bigger one, but I was never able to find one hunting there.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:53 pm

buckeyeshooter wrote:...I use a 10 ga. not 12 ga...

That's the big boy in the crowd!