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Greetings,
I am looking for real world (NOT internet wisdom) info about effectiveness of this ammo. I am interested in increased range, as well as improved "put em down" ability as compared to convential ammo. My eyes are demanding I put a good scope on one of my favored lever guns, and I'm trying to decide between 32 Special or 35 Remington, both are Marlins. I kind of expect that the 32 would have a slight range advantage, but I am sure the 35 hits harder. Most of the time I will be chasing bambi, but there are a few bear hunts possible.
There's nothing wrong with the the Leverevolution loads, but they really ain't all they're cracked up to be. Look at their ballistic charts closely and you will see , for instance, that velocity comparisons between their loads and others are always between theirs from a 24" barrel and everyone else's from a 20". This alone accounts for most of the velocity gains they claim.
As for the claimed flatter trajectory, it's there -- but the real-life difference is very, very small. In my opinion, if you use standard loads from Remington, Federal, et al, and learn your trajectory, the real advantage of the Flex-tip ammo is zero for all practical purposes. Their claims aren't outright lies -- but they ARE advertising, which sometimes skirts pretty close to outright lies, no matter what's being sold.
Due to bullet shape it will shoot flatter, hit harder farther than flatnose ammo. Only you can tell if the slight extra cost is worth the enhanced ballistics,if u got a 300 yard range to shoot from.
Pisgah wrote:
As for the claimed flatter trajectory, it's there -- but the real-life difference is very, very small. In my opinion, if you use standard loads from Remington, Federal, et al, and learn your trajectory, the real advantage of the Flex-tip ammo is zero for all practical purposes. Their claims aren't outright lies -- but they ARE advertising, which sometimes skirts pretty close to outright lies, no matter what's being sold.
tman wrote:Due to bullet shape it will shoot flatter, hit harder farther than flatnose ammo. Only you can tell if the slight extra cost is worth the enhanced ballistics,if u got a 300 yard range to shoot from.
I only have part time use of a 200 yd range - most of the time I'm restricted to 100 yds. That's one of the reasons I'm asking here. Thanks fo the input.
I killed a black bear at 150 yards with a flex tip hornady 356 Win. 200 gr. FTX, which is of course a .358.
I hit the bear high in the shoulders, he went down instantly, never got up, I didn't recover the bullet because
it exited, but it did much damage. He died before we could get to him. No complaints.
daisygordoninc wrote:I killed a black bear at 150 yards with a flex tip hornady 356 Win. 200 gr. FTX, which is of course a .358.
I hit the bear high in the shoulders, he went down instantly, never got up, I didn't recover the bullet because
it exited, but it did much damage. He died before we could get to him. No complaints.
Good to know they hold together on a bear. Thanks!
Do you have any idea on how much it weighed?
I've taken 3 elk with the leverevolution in 45-70. They are very accurate in my rifle. The ranges were 50- 125 yards but they worked fine. I recovered one. It held together pretty well. In my 30-30 the accuracy was just ok.
I switched to them when they came out and have tested them on hard packed paper medium and a lot of deer.
They are accurate in my 2 30-30's and are more effective on game then when I used 170 Rem CL.
By that I mean deer drop at the shot or a VERY short run within sight, most of the time, with a heart/lung shot.
I really don't care about extending the range as most of my opportunities are within 100 yds, but I don't need anymore tracking experience, especially if there is other private properties nearby.
Yes, ALL the other ammo types work, and take deer, these work better for me, and the extra couple dollars are insignificant .
jkbrea wrote:I've taken 3 elk with the leverevolution in 45-70. They are very accurate in my rifle. The ranges were 50- 125 yards but they worked fine. I recovered one. It held together pretty well. In my 30-30 the accuracy was just ok.
gcs wrote:I switched to them when they came out and have tested them on hard packed paper medium and a lot of deer.
By that I mean deer drop at the shot or a VERY short run within sight, most of the time, with a heart/lung shot.
I really don't care about extending the range as most of my opportunities are within 100 yds, but I don't need anymore tracking experience, especially if there is other private properties nearby.
Yes, ALL the other ammo types work, and take deer, these work better for me, and the extra couple dollars are insignificant .
Thank you. Usually the extra range isn't important, but the timber slashing has opened up some areas where the longer ranges are possible. That's why I'm leaning toward the 32 Special, somewhat flatter trajectory.
Paco wrote about their use in a 45/70 in one of their African trips sometime back and was impressed with their performance. They proved to be accurate in my, Marlin.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...
Old Savage wrote:Paco wrote about their use in a 45/70 in one of their African trips sometime back and was impressed with their performance. They proved to be accurate in my, Marlin.
The only ones I have used are the 458 325 grain bullet in 45/70 and while accurate I was not happy with how they worked on deer at least the moderate sized one I shot with them. Neither one appeared to have opened up lealving an exit hole the same size as entrance and no blood trail. These were shot at under 100 yard at a lot higher speed than the factory loading(using a Ruger#3).
wolfdog wrote:The only ones I have used are the 458 325 grain bullet in 45/70 and while accurate I was not happy with how they worked on deer at least the moderate sized one I shot with them. Neither one appeared to have opened up lealving an exit hole the same size as entrance and no blood trail. These were shot at under 100 yard at a lot higher speed than the factory loading(using a Ruger#3).
Thanks for the feedback. Were these early or late production?
I know you said you don't want internet wisdom, but how about a bit of pure mathematics.
I just did a bit of number crunching based on Hornady bullet data, Pointblank ballistic calculator, and Lee second edition reloading manual.
I did the maths on 30-30, 32 special, and 35 Remington.
If you want to avoid the cost of the gummy tips go with the 32 special, it had the least amount of difference between gummy tip and FP.
If you want the most bang for your bucks with gummy tips, go with the 30-30, it had the least amount of bullet drop over distance and least amount of FP energy loss as well. It also has the best sectional density for deep penetration with both bullet types.
The 35Rem has both the worst sectional density and the worst bullet drop, and I'm guessing that with its higher bullet weight it also has the worst recoil too.
I took the highest velocity listed for each caliber for the FP bullet, so the lighter gummy tips will actually be fractionally better than listed, but only because of their lighter weight giving a slightly higher muzzle velocity to begin with. In all cases YMMV, as you may not be able to get those max velocities in your particular rifle.
Also these figures come from a ballistics calculation based on nothing more than ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity, so barrel length will not sway the listed results in favor of either bullet.
The listed drop is in inches at 200 yds with a 100 yds zero and a 1.5" scope height.
30-30...muzzle vel 2330fps@170gr
(bullet......)(vel.100yds)(fpe.100yds)(vel.200yds)(fpe.200yds)(drop)
160gr FTX...2094.........1558..........1871........1244........-6.36"
170gr FP.....1926.........1401..........1573........934.........-8.08"
32 special...muzzle vel 2240fps@170gr
(bullet......)(vel.100yds)(fpe.100yds)(vel.200yds)(fpe.200yds)(drop)
165gr FTX...1995.........1458.........1766.........1143........-7.22"
170gr FP.....1937.........1415.........1662.........1043........-7.93"
35 Rem...muzzle vel 2150@200gr
(note. there is no 200gr FP by Hornady so I substituted an RN bullet, a FP would probably give worse results.)
(bullet......)(vel.100yds)(fpe.100yds)(vel.200yds)(fpe.200yds)(drop)
200gr FTX...1902.........1606.........1675.........1246........-8.28"
200gr RN....1777.........1402.........1455.........940..........-9.66"
Bob
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daisygordoninc wrote:I killed a black bear at 150 yards with a flex tip hornady 356 Win. 200 gr. FTX, which is of course a .358.
I hit the bear high in the shoulders, he went down instantly, never got up, I didn't recover the bullet because
it exited, but it did much damage. He died before we could get to him. No complaints.
Bob, thanks for your efforts. The numbers are interesting, but sometimes they don't give the complete picture. That's why I'm looking for actual field experience.
I shot 7 deer with the 308ME ammo from between 40 yards and 130 yards. On all deer I shot, the bullet broke up and showed very poor performance with no exit wound. To be honest, I shoot my deer on the point of the shoulder and expect the bullet to break the shoulder, blow up the heart and exit breaking the off side shoulder. This bullet does not even come close.
It does shoot accurately out of my 308 express, however, it is a 'lung shot' bullet at close range. I can't tell you how it works at distance because the area I hunt, 130 yards (lazered) is the farthest shot taken. I call them "gummie grenades".
I have no problem with Federal Blue Box in 30-30, 308 or 30-06 giving me the performance I want. So, I now load Barnes 150 grain XFN's in the Marlin Express with complete penetration and the performance I want.
buckeyeshooter wrote:I shot 7 deer with the 308ME ammo from between 40 yards and 130 yards. On all deer I shot, the bullet broke up and showed very poor performance with no exit wound. To be honest, I shoot my deer on the point of the shoulder and expect the bullet to break the shoulder, blow up the heart and exit breaking the off side shoulder. This bullet does not even come close.
I have no problem with Federal Blue Box in 30-30, 308 or 30-06 giving me the performance I want. So, I now load Barnes 150 grain XFN's in the Marlin Express with complete penetration and the performance I want.
Thanks for the feedback. Starting to sound like these work better at 30-30 velocities than at 308 velocities.
I had a couple of boxes of the early or original run, that's what I originally tested, no problems of any kind, at any range or any angle. All pass throughs, huge wound channels and all deer harvested. I'm over 40 deer taken with these, and a later run batch and aside from one weird event, most deer taken dropped at the shot or within sight of the shooter, had three that made about 80 + yds.
Identical shot placement with 170 CL, I usually had to go looking for them.
This is with a 30-30, and behind the shoulder placement, if I had to go back to a "standard" bullet, I'd use a 150 CL, as I had better "luck" with these then the 170's, and by that I mean, deer went down faster, with less tracking.
I don't target shoot with these, or at all, this is my hunting gun only and I'm interested in performance over saving a couple bucks. These things work for me...YMMV
gcs wrote:
Identical shot placement with 170 CL, I usually had to go looking for them.
This is with a 30-30, and behind the shoulder placement, if I had to go back to a "standard" bullet, I'd use a 150 CL, as I had better "luck" with these then the 170's, and by that I mean, deer went down faster, with less tracking.
I don't target shoot with these, or at all, this is my hunting gun only and I'm interested in performance over saving a couple bucks. These things work for me...YMMV
