Hypothetical question

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:47 pm

After the CA shooting I was thinking about concealed carry calibers. The shooters wore body armor (and we don't know what type) so is there a handgun caliber that can defeat body armor? Pretty sure my 9mm won't. I know head shots are an option and perhaps lower abdomen/hip/groin area would be a viable target (large veins for rapid blood loss, hip damage could disable), but is an "active shooter" situation those are pretty small targets for most carry weapons. 45 ACP, .357 Mag. short bbl?

Lassiter · Post by **Lassiter** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:26 pm

Body armor is rated on different levels and different levels protect against different weapons. So it would depend on the level of the vest worn. When I was in law enforcement our department issued level IIA. I bought my own vest and got a level III. I have always been told that departments issue a vest level that would protect against the sidearm carried by it's own officers since most officers are shot by a suspect that has taken the officer's gun away from him. Not sure that would be the case in these times and circumstances. Vests that protect against shots from rifle calibers that I've seen have ceramic plates and are extremely heavy. I carried two ceramic plates that I put into pockets on my tactical in extreme situations where I felt that I might encounter a suspect armed with a rifle and again, I bought them myself. Law enforcement is woefully under armed and under paid for what we are seeing take place in this country now. jes my $0.02 worth.

In the L.A. bank robbery several years ago where the suspects wore body armor and got into a prolonged shoot out with officers I seem to recall that one of the officers, when he saw that body shots weren't having any effect, shot one of the guys in the foot.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:36 pm

Hypothetically, I'd probably fire as many as possible at the head if I was carrying my LCP. I'd want to be very, very sure of what's behind the target, though. I wonder if a double tap with a .45acp, or 10mm would do any damage without actually penetrating the Kevlar?
I hope one of our former/present operators/LEOs will chime in. All I can do is read or guess at it.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:53 pm

are we actually sure they wore any armor? The news generally gets it all wrong, even using the term "flak vest" which isnt armor per se, just shrapnel protection. They may have work what may be termed "tactical vests", which are basically load bearing vests. The media, and apparently some police dont seem to know the difference, or are willing to play it up for media hype points.

Even basic load bearing vest, like with magazines carried in front can stop bullets. Theres no guarantee with round or load will or will not shoot through magazines. A 9mm generally will better than a 45 because of velocity, though I know of one guy that had his M4 magazines carried in a chest rig stop an AK round.

In any event, a head/neck shot is safest if they are wearing chest rigs. Many choose to carry very small guns. Great, its better than no gun, but you generally lose power and shootability in the process. The compact and mid size 9's seem like a pretty good general carry gun, with about 15 rds up, and reloads pretty easy to carry. Some just dont care to carry much though.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:02 pm

my free opinion is this. the body armor covers up everything that isn't of cold-stop value. I don't want the perp to bleed out spraying ammo back at me, I want the perp to be dead before it hits the dirt. I saw a lot of deer die exactly that way. my target zone starts at the throat. aim small. head shots are dead shots.

I agree that a pelvis shot might be useful, but only if the other shot isn't available, and the knees are a good take-out option if shooting from cover in a crowded area. but the spine/head/cns shot is the stopper.

And 9mm or .380 with the right ammo is more than adequate for switching off the lights.

http://www.lehighdefense.com/products/3 ... ammunition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40

you could easily conceal 4 or more LCPs, have 28 rounds of lehigh for the bad girls and guys.

I think it's time to re-think the tactics. Spreading ammo across a paper plate size area where the potential to do no harm is high doesn't seem like an efficient way to deal with the actual threats. But obviously I've never been in combat and freely admit that I don't know what I'm speculating about.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:19 pm

Those strange little FN 5.7 ones probably do, with the right bullet, and I'll bet my 1911 (Rock Island) in 22 TCM would, too...

...BUT I'd not count on ANY handgun penetrating 100% of the time - what if they have military trauma/rifle plates in their vests.......????????

Instead, I'd concentrate on having enough firepower so you can keep shooting and shooting; even a non-penetrating shot to the torso (hitting a vest) surely would be 'distracting' - during which time you can aim for the head.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:26 pm

Anything that's armored has thin spots and areas that aren't protected. Most body armor is designed to protect the vitals and the groin, add a helmet to that.

I'd opine that weak spots are the face, the neck, the sides under the arms, and the extremities. Good cover or concealment reduces those opportunities, but there would seem to some targets for a deliberate shooter.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:38 pm

Lassiter got it right. Apologies for being blunt, but we are talking about life and death survival, here.

I remember a drill, repeated with more than one agency that I worked for: 2 to the body, 1 to the head.
Now, the proviso for a law enforcement officer is that when the threat stops and is contained, you stop shooting. And that should work for the citizen, as well. Even if you throw out the moral aspects, remember that an official inquiry, followed possibly by a criminal and/or civil jury trial, will dwell upon your using the "minimum necessary force" to stop the assault.

Here are some points for consideration, as to why the 2 and 1 routine makes sense:

1) You won't know if they are wearing body armor.
In a surprise assault, don't stake your life on this. React. Lightweight undershirt body armor has been sold for years, for instance. It is undetectable but pretty effective. On the other hand, the bulkier body armor can be any level, including the type with ceramic plates that stop rifle bullets. Forget about getting a concealable hand cannon that is 100% effective against body armor.

2) Two quick shots to the central mass is most likely to succeed. A head or leg shot usually won't.
Those of us who have actually been in an armed altercation can tell you that, even despite years of the best training, your adrenaline takes over and the fine coordination goes south as your major muscle groups get the blood and things start changing - narrowed vision, less steadiness in your arms and hands as you are pumped with "fight or flight" hormone, and the bad folks aren't cooperating by standing still like your paper targets did... or even that buck you took last year.

3) Bystanders are less likely to get hit by a missed shot to a small part of the body.
A central body shot, even if wide, is more likely to hit something that stops a bullet. If we are talking about our current rash of Muslim loonies, remember that you will likely be in a crowd if we are talking about a crazed shooter with a bullet proof vest. Ideally, if you can drop to a lower level and shoot, such as from kneeling position, the trajectory of your round will range upward after hitting or missing your assailant, away from the crowd.

4) Blunt trauma distracts the shooter, gives you time for an aimed shot.
You can research the many documented instances where a person wearing body armor was saved by the apparel, but still stated how the bullet hurt and left a bruise. That distracts them momentarily, at least, so that they quit shooting and you can then make that aimed shot to the head, if the threat continues.

5) Leg and arms, unprotected -
If you DO have the steadiness and time to make a really good aimed shot, and especially if there is no other option, e.g. a shooter being mainly behind a barricade and shooting at others, then a peripheral shot will possibly create such pain and trauma that they will drop down and expose a more viable target. Forget about trying to bleed them out - the violent attacker must be stopped immediately.

Hoping and praying that you and your loved ones will never be faced with this situation, nor me and mine, this is nonetheless the strategy that I have adopted, should some crazed gunman force me to defend myself: 2 to the body, 1 to the head.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:40 pm

The first reports did say the terrorist were wearing armor. Later that was retracted to they were wearing "tactical" vests with all the pockets etc. If the rare chance does happen that it looks like they are wearing bullet proof vests I would aim for the head, knee`s or legs. I don't know what caliber would be best. Even a 22 lr would be better than nothing. It would distract most normal people.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:01 pm

Bill

they're NOT NORMAL.

AND

THEY WANT THE PAIN AND SUFFERING THEY GET

it's what it is

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:03 pm

^^^. What Bill said + 1 ^^^

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:07 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Those strange little FN 5.7 ones probably do, with the right bullet, and I'll bet my 1911 (Rock Island) in 22 TCM would, too...

...BUT I'd not count on ANY handgun penetrating 100% of the time - what if they have military trauma/rifle plates in their vests.......????????

Instead, I'd concentrate on having enough firepower so you can keep shooting and shooting; even a non-penetrating shot to the torso (hitting a vest) surely would be 'distracting' - during which time you can aim for the head.

Supposedly .22tcm won't go through IIIa. Probably something to do with the bullet geometry since it has a round nose as compared to 5.7's point. It will defeat level IIa, however. On bare targets,it seems to do damage on par with ball .45acp and will defeat armored glass to about half an inch.

(late edit) Then again, similar 40gr 5.7 didn't do much better against IIa. The less common green tip AP rounds of course, did, but the wound cavity after armor is in no way impressive. I certainly wouldn't feel comfy carrying 5.7 AP against body armor opponents unless I could spam it full-auto.

Civil Defense 9mm is verifiably able penetrate soft level III. Like the others above, it's another low grain laser round pushing around 2k fps. People deride these bullets, but that hole doesn't lie. This video tests against AR500 IIIa hybrid. While there's no penetration, you probably still ruin the recipient's day, very likely incapacitating them for follow up rounds. The Tokarev also made it through, but I think you're going to have a substantial recoil penalty attached to it as well.

Their .45acp offering is supposed to push 1900fps and soft IIIa is only rated to a 44mag at 1400fps. Sadly I can only find unarmored gel ballistics on it. In any case, everything I've seen is just as brutal and I wouldn't doubt you could give somebody a bad day there as well.

Maybe an answer from a youtube comment--

Funny you asked... I'm a former Leo and I put a Liberty .45 through my USP into my old IIIA vest, the round didn't penetrate all the way through but it came very close. I think 4 more layers and it would've gone right through. Impressive that it went through so many layers... I shot the vest with a 230g Ranger T, and it stopped in the first layer. I keep this ammo in my USP at home.

Hnnn.... An RIA .22TCM/9mm 1911 combo package is looking pretty attractive in light of this talk.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:08 pm

mikld wrote:
The shooters wore body armor (and we don't know what type) so is there a handgun caliber that can defeat body armor ?

Yep - The FN 5.7x28mm, especially with AP slugs.

.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:39 pm

EDITED because TMI - Probably more personal info than needed. Other posters have covered this quite well!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:06 pm

What JohndeFresno said. Except, I was trained to shoot 2, evaluate, repeat as necessary... in the military I was taught to 2 center of mass & one to the head... the SO was a little leery of the perception of the Mozambique technique.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:43 pm

Grizz wrote:Bill

they're NOT NORMAL.

AND

THEY WANT THE PAIN AND SUFFERING THEY GET

it's what it is

.....then we should all be willing and able to help them out, eh...?

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:17 pm

Deleted.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:31 am

Griff wrote:...I was trained to shoot 2, evaluate, repeat as necessary... in the military I was taught to 2 center of mass & one to the head... the SO was a little leery of the perception of the Mozambique technique.

Yup. When (or IF) the threat stops, stop shooting.

As mentioned above (but perhaps not properly stressed), the head shot is only executed if the threat continues, e.g. an attacker is still a viable deadly threat.

Shooting policies, like politics, vary among jurisdictions; but when I was with Fresno SO, the aforementioned Mozambique ( (or, "Failure to Stop") technique was taught with the appropriate provisos - "evaluate" as Griff said; and likewise with a State agency that I worked for after that, precisely because of the issue of bad guys possibly wearing body armor, on drugs like PCP, or other situations where they would continue to attack.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:30 am

Ray wrote:"The Tokarev also made it through, but I think you're going to have a substantial recoil penalty attached to it as well."

Not sure what you mean by recoil penalty but my experience with the 7.62x25mm tokarev finds it very mild recoiling. Using identical tokarevs, one in 7.62x25mm, the other in 9x19mm.... 85 gr. serbian ball at 1500fps from the former seems to recoil less than 95gr. jsp. at 1400fps from the latter.....but with considerably more muzzle blast from the 7.62.

It seemed they used the hottest spec steel jacketed mil surplus they could find for that particular test and it carved through the vest like butter. I dunno. Tok isn't my thing so you may very well be right.

I like all this talk about head shots, but I for one am not going to assume circumstances will favor such a clean kill. In fact, you might very well be faced with taking what you can get. I guess I'm just very pragmatic about my approach to firearms, because it's all about balance-- I use .45acp because I like big holes, but more shots on target are better than less, driving me to a hi-cap pistol with 13+1 with the addition of a +3 round extender for 16+1. It also drives my selection of ammunition. High velocity, low mass rounds for making large holes and quick follow up shots, even if I have to sacrifice a bit in penetration since we're talking humans, not zombie-bear-robots.

If I see an uptick in events with body armor, I'll shift accordingly to a hicap 9mm loaded up with the civil defense high velocity. Tokarev would be great if somebody made a modern platform for it, but /shrug

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:38 am

The 124 gr. FMJ 9mm has amazing penetration. I doubt most soft armor will stop it no mater what the maker says.

Even if they are wearing soft armor there is still the blunt trauma effect which can disable.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:47 am

Panzercat, I agree that the CNS shot isn't always available.

I've never shot a human, but I consider the anatomy of deer to be similar in terms of backbone and rib sizes and generally similar thoraxes. I can state categorically that the head/spine shot is far better than any thorax shot, unless that shot severs the spine.

I guess I imagine the armed civilian in the San Berdu war zone as a very overmatched sniper, where the single advantage is the opportunity to pick a shot rather than spraying rounds in the direction of the incoming fire. The civilian might have the opportunity to shoot the killer in the back of the head, a decided advantage to the pistolero sniper. This is what my conjecture suggests as a change of tactic over the standard paper practice target.

I don't suppose the average armed civilian will be this collected, and I have no idea if I could do this, and I fervently hope I never have to find out. But the war is here and the war zone is determined by the agressors. I imagine the next iteration will involve a half-dozen shooters. It's a hard rain . . .

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:39 am

I've read about and seen a few different drills, for single and multiple assailants. Except for targets that either swing or popup none have any dynamic movement to be expected of people. And most importantly, none were shooting back or at innocents. I'm sure there are some high dollar simulators that can give a more realistic situation regarding movement. But they still aren't shooting back.

The previously mentioned 2+1, or the shoot once move to next target shoot once and move on repeating if necessary is another. Both require accurate shot placement. When things are going south, your adrenalin is pumping and chaos is all about, accurate shot placement is iffy at best. While the advent of reliable body armor has made things infinitely more difficult, other inventions have helped with the accuracy problem.

Using iron sights require fine motor skills, attention to detail and such. Red dots, and lasers have a leg up on iron sights. And for those that are young and haven't found out yet, as you age the eyes start to let you down. Not using the best available sighting equipment is inexcusable when there are innocents around.

The best we mere mortal civilians can do is train in multiple responses, and pray we pick the right one at the time. Ideally in a situation like this there would be an entire room of armed folks, but that's never going to happen. And, in most places governmental buildings like this are "gun free" zones. Very soft targets that aren't likely to get any better ever. In a situation like San Bernadino knowing where all of the exits are is the best you can hope for.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:39 am

Oops. Dreaded double post.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:13 am

Here's the stink of it.

those shooters should have been killed dead inside the room, with the casualty total a fraction of their score. the worst part of the whole thing is that they were able to gain their vehicle and run. in a prepared society they never would have made it to the street.

The governments that have jurisdiction have the blood of innocents on their hands, that's where the blame needs to go.

There will always be pathological killers around, it's how they are coddled that determines their success ratio.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:43 am

Jeepnik, if you ever get the chance to run thru the FBI simulator... jump at it. Our agency in CA had a "town" at the training center that with the use of laser guns and vest had the "2-way" aspect of a dynamic situation. With human participants and their unpredictability element. The FBI simulator I ran thru was an interactive video and was quite eye opening when you had the chance to run thru the scenario multiple times and change how you handled (or not) the scenario. I'm sure the technology is much better now, as it was more'n ten years since I did the FBI trainer. But that redneck tactic of "shoot first, ask questions of any survivors" still ain't the best...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:48 pm

I absolutely despise, and fear Gun Free Zones, but, I also dread the scene where every non-trained idiot is armed, too......

I think I'll hit the floor before opening fire.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:00 pm

What happens if while you are putting your first two in the body the attacker decides to start with the opposite approach and start with the one to the head? If under direct attack we are going to take what shot we think we can get in in time. The person most likely to stop the attack is a bystander not under immediate attack who has the time to aim. That is the true value of concealed carry not to protect the person already being attacked but so we can stop the attack from spreading.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:15 pm

Thanks for the responses so far. I asked a simple question and the thread drifted into a couple different directions, not bad, just got away from my question. "Normally", a concealed carry weapon will be a small handgun, mostly in .380. .38, 9mm, 40mm, and some up to .357 Mag. and 45 ACP. From the replies I might as well forget about any of these rounds doing any harm to a "tactical" vest or any body armor wearer. I guess I'll need to practice a whole lot more to be able to take a head shot or a "2 and 1" series of shots. I'm pretty sure I would be lucky to hit a whole torso at large room distances (mebbe 30-40 ft.) with all the adrenaline and excitement and worse scenario conditions, let alone a 4" diameter head shot with my 3.5", loooong trigger pull 9mm. Of course I'd be happier with my 629 or M1, but I'm talking about "normal" carry calibers/options....

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:26 pm

EDITED because TMI - Probably more personal info than needed. Other posters have covered this quite well!

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:24 pm

Oh, look at this--
1911 7.62x25 Tokarev Conversion.

Wonder how those handle...?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:46 pm

Panzercat wrote:Oh, look at this--
1911 7.62x25 Tokarev Conversion.

Wonder how those handle...?

Since the the copper jacketed steel core ammo is not legal for USA, I wonder if the rep for Kevlar penetration is still valid.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:39 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Panzercat wrote:Oh, look at this--
1911 7.62x25 Tokarev Conversion.

Wonder how those handle...?
Since the the copper jacketed steel core ammo is not legal for USA, I wonder if the rep for Kevlar penetration is still valid.

Kinda like 5.7 and its AP rounds, I guess.

Been studying up on 7.62x25 since finding that and while it's interesting, it's nothing I can't do with most any other round with a bit of work. Also has a lot of conditions, one of which being the requirement for a 38 super variant in order to chamber the cartridge. Meh. Sounds like a square peg round hole solution at best.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:43 pm

Panzercat wrote:
BlaineG wrote:
Panzercat wrote:Oh, look at this--
1911 7.62x25 Tokarev Conversion.

Wonder how those handle...?
Since the the copper jacketed steel core ammo is not legal for USA, I wonder if the rep for Kevlar penetration is still valid.
Kinda like 5.7 and its AP rounds, I guess.

Been studying up on 7.62x25 since finding that and while it's interesting, it's nothing I can't do with most any other round with a bit of work. Also has a lot of conditions, one of which being the requirement for a 38 super variant in order to chamber the cartridge. Meh. Sounds like a square peg round hole solution at best.

I've been thinking lately about .357 Sig rounds, and those FMJ offerings.....

16-1700 fps sounds pretty penetrating.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:35 pm

If you cast, bullets with imbedded hardened steel penetrators aren't all that hard to make...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:45 pm

How to Stop Mass Shootings

this guy recorded this two years ago and every single killing since then validates his position.

this guy should be Trump's homeland security chief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR3t7j2tUec

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:09 am

Grizz wrote:How to Stop Mass Shootings

this guy recorded this two years ago and every single killing since then validates his position.

this guy should be Trump's homeland security chief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR3t7j2tUec

Noir's great. A little too heavy handed with the similes but great none the less.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:28 am

Interesting Thread. I don't think the answer is some magic bullet, or caliber for concealed carry. But I do think if we eliminated these so called gun free zones which are so very stupid, and it seams like these soft targets are usually always the starting point for one of these mass shooters, Muslim Terrorist fanatics, etc.

Cops can't be everywhere, it really is the personal responsibility of the individual to handle the immediate threat, whatever and wherever that might arise. There are always going to be plenty of sheep available for the slaughter, but if we could keep from disarming the potential sheepdogs sprinkled out among the sheep, then maybe these mass killings could be contained with fewer casualty's at the end of day.

So, it comes down to the fact that the individual that is willing and capable and present at the onset of one of these mass shootings, is really the only person that has a chance of reducing the body count. Our present tool in the toolbox for this is the individual with a Concealed carry licence that is carrying at the time and capable. Unfortunately, probably half of the people that do actually carry, carry too small a gun, that they can't shoot very well anyway, but hey, at least the perpetrators might run into some immediate resistance. And that's better then cowering down and being shot like a sheep.

But if you are serious about having a chance to resist in the remote possibility of ever being unlucky enough to be caught in a mass shooting situation, then learn how to effectively carry a decent sized handgun, that you can shoot accurately. That being said, I often find myself debating between carrying something small like a .380 auto, or going bigger, I usually go bigger. But whatever you carry you need to be able to hit with it under stress, and that takes practice and probably a bigger gun then most would prefer to carry which makes one's holster or carry method possibly more important then the weapon you choose to carry.

My carry choice after a lot of trial and error, and 20 years of carrying is most often a light weight Commander but sometimes it's a 5 inch 1911, or a Glock 40cal or 9mm. I will take my chances with a heavy bullet of caliber that I can place effectively under stress, combined with a trigger and sights up to the task. One thing to keep in mind is if you really did find yourself in a true Terrorist shooting situation and you managed to get one down, body shot or not, you better quickly put one in their head, even if they are already on the ground because they might be wearing a suicide vest with explosives, that I would assume they would detonate at the last minute, after being put down if they still have the capability. Anything less is just plain stupid. Facing a terrorist using explosives scares me a heck of a lot more then any small arms they might employ.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:05 am

That being said, I often find myself debating between carrying something small like a .380 auto, or going bigger, I usually go bigger.

I think I am not very effective at communicating. Because I already posted these links concerning the .380:

http://www.lehighdefense.com/products/3 ... ammunition

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=betFqFCwcYo

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw

so, in summary, THE .380 SHOOTS THE SAME BULLETS AS THE 9MM AND THE SAME BULLETS AS THE 357 MAG, AND THE LEHIGH AMMO GIVES SUPERIOR PERFORMANCE IN THE POCKET PISTOLS.

A man was murdered in Seattle with a Ruger LCP .380; he was shot in the sternum and the bullet broke his spine, he was dead when he hit the pavement.

I am not opposed to carrying larger guns, but I am concerned with some of the assumptions we are expressing. My take is that I would far rather have 10% of every gathering populated with .380s, than to have no guns because the 45 JUST SEEMS TO BLINKING LARGE to someone not conditioned and trained to carry it.

When I go through certain areas I have a 45 strapped on, and I can conceal it. Not everyone can, and size + weight is off-putting to many. My wife will carry her LCP where she would never consider carrying the xd45 or 1911, which she prefers to shoot.

I guess I am worried that the talk about what is the basic bare minimum might be unfairly biasing many readers against carrying anything. The .380 is shooting adequate size bullets, and it seems the lehigh bullet design is making penetration to not be an issue, to the degree that, if all results are similar to the test results, it gives the little 380 the functional equivilant of the 357. I realize that this is a hard concept to swallow, and that it is counter-intuitive, but the data is there to support the proposition.

I hope anyone with countervailing data, something like the denim over gel test showing on video that the 380 lehigh stops at the second layer of denim, or stops an inch into the gel, will post up the video post-haste to correct the extant information.

For the professionals and trained operators I say great, do your training thing. But your doctrine is not of much use to the average citizen who won't be in your company 24/7, and might have to rely on themselves to stop a murderer. That person is not helped by your training.

I read a lot and I have yet to read of any shooting being stopped by a professionally trained citizen who just happens to be in civilian garb and happens to be at the opening scene of a potential mass murder. I am not saying that it never happens. I am saying that the hundreds of defense uses of small firearms generally is by a lightly trained householder who manages to gain her gun before the bad guys kill her.

Those are the folks I hope will not be discouraged by the notion that big bore guns regularly exercised in run and gun games are the only viable defense against homicidal religious nuts.

So far I have not run across much data to support this, and there are around a million crime stops by civilians with guns every year.

just sayin'

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:38 pm

James Bond (back in the day) carried either a .32 or a .380 (after ditching the Beretta .25).

His Shots to Kills ratio works for me.

My EDC/BUG is a .32. My CCW is either a 5x.357 or a 13x9mm... with the .32 in reserve.

Either way, I'm OK until I can get to a long gun.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:26 pm

Maybe this thread was a bad influence, but I've actually been kicking this decision around for a bit. I normally carry my EDC with a mag of nine rounds of .45acp. I mentally assigned this as my 'peace time' carry posture in a society where I by and large do not feel threatened but choose to be prepared.

With the happenings of late, I think it's time to swap out mags and carry sixteen instead. probably the most I've ever carried since deciding to in the first place and I don't see that as a good thing.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:36 pm

I carry .380's too sometimes, any gun is better then no gun, but that doesn't mean it's a good choice if one can carry something more substantial, but yeah, carry your .380 if that's all you can conceal, but most of them are harder to shoot effectively at distance, then a slightly larger gun, although there are some decent .380's available.

A bigger gun is still better, if you can carry it.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:30 pm

A couple of facts for evidence that deserve to be spread around virally . . . facts to put the lie to the liar-class . . .

guns-save-lives.jpg

car-violence-v-guns.jpg

truth is annoying to liars, go forth annoyingly

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:53 am

Griff wrote:What JohndeFresno said. Except, I was trained to shoot 2, evaluate, repeat as necessary... in the military I was taught to 2 center of mass & one to the head... the SO was a little leery of the perception of the Mozambique technique.

we are trained to shoot until the threat is incapacitated... :)

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:17 am

??????

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:17 am

What JohndeFresno said through this thread is correct as most of the other information put out. I have been very lucky in my life and have been trained by some of the worlds best from both civilian and military and proud to call most of them (that are still alive) now, friends. I have taken this training and used it to save my skin and train others to do the same.
I have a tendency to carry .38 Supers, .357 Sigs, .357 Mags, .44 Mags, and last choice 9mm. I have shot most commen body armor to see what it would stop and what it would not for my State Police agency.
With this in mind if you want to penetrate body armor try higher velocity metal cased or solid copper round nose or pointy rounds. 9mm Nato spec 124 does pretty good on soft body armor or any round that is around that velocity or faster. Shooting military Flack jackets the were about as good as Level II or Level III armor and a Nato 124 Gr would not penetrate it unless it was out of a short barreled 9mm. A Browning HP using that round did penetrate one side and out of a MP-5 both sides. .38 Super with +P 130 Gr RN would normally punch up through level III vests. .44 Mag 240 SP punched them all unless there was a plate on the vest including Kevlar helmets .
We train out Special OPS teams shoot until they stop and body armor drills consist of two to the body one to the head.
Other than buying Armor piercing rounds for our handgun you might try these https://www.underwoodammo.com/search.ph ... er&Search= I first used them in Alaska in .44 Mag and .45 Colt for bears and now have a couple in the mags of what ever firearm I am carrying after a Glaser safety slug in the tube with Xtremes and Gold Dot HPs mixed as I am not allowed to carry reloads for people.

Don't know if this info helps but I hope ou never need it.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:50 pm

Well, asking a simple question seems to illicit some "bunny trail" posts (everything from "I only use ___, and try for a left eye shot", to "I'm trained by the best and I only ___", to theories about what "tactical" methods to use when ___ happens"). My question wasn't about world politics and "tactical training" just if there were any "carry calibers" that might be effective against body armor. In my limited research/reading, nope there ain't any such a thing. I was wondering what may be effective in a "terrorist type" shooting only, if the bad guys were wearing some type of protection like body armor, perhaps that was too simple

. I have an idea on what is effective on an individual/mugging type scenario (one or two bad guys at 5-20 ft. wearing street clothes) and that's what I keep handy.

So, you fellers can have this thread 'cause I ain't interested in "tactical training" or unavailable ammo/guns (I read the 5.7 "good" ammo isn't available any more) or the arguments concerning them...

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:08 pm

EDITED because TMI - Probably more personal info than needed. Other posters have covered this quite well!

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:53 pm

Pretty sure I gave a comprehensive reply in my first post

5.7/22tcm - IIa
7.62x25 Tokarev/9mm Civil Defense - IIIa

To address another post, 357Sig doesn't appear to punch through IIIa on its own, but there's not many tests I could find. The velocity tables from Ballistics by the Inch suggest that it could probably breach IIa. Defeating IIIa would probably require a rifle barrel or s special round like the civil defense loads.

45acp 78gr Civil Defense does not appear to be able to either, but this is based on only one account. If it performs like the 9mm version, the kinetic energy dump alone looks crippling.

The common denominator amongst all of these is that they are boutique rounds. The are all built for speed, so theoretically anything bullet could rigged to do the same.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:46 pm

EDITED because TMI - Probably more personal info than needed. Other posters have covered this quite well!

Level IV - http://www.securityprousa.com/cehaarriplsa.html

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:39 pm

I've always thought it would be interesting to build some .357/.17 SLAPs

Wouldn't work in a Semi, but might just be scary out of a Wheelie BUG.