Decisions. 45 colt or 45-70?

don1911 · Post by **don1911** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:06 pm

After I sell my FN FAL I can buy another lever gun. My difficulty is in deciding whether to get one in 45 colt to go with my three 45 colt revolvers or 45-70 just because it's such an awesome caliber. Although 45-70 Ammo is so expensive. What do you think?

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:33 pm

I have the 45/70 and love it! That said a 45 colt in a rifle can be loaded to 45/90 bp ballistics with 300 gr bullets so it makes a good showing for itself. Brass is cheap, bullets on hand a lot of plus's. Also the 1894 is a sweet gun to carry.
The down side is if you feed a hot 300 gr into a handgun it may destruct.
The 45/70 is easy on brass, harder on the wallet and shoulder though. It can be loaded mild to wild and I will attest that its a deer and bear killing machine. (and just about anything its pointed at correctly)

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:46 pm

I know what I would do, or uh have done. I have owned and sold/traded a handful of 45 Colt rifles but I still have 2 86s, (well one is a 45-90) a Springfield Trapdoor and a Remington Rolling Block in 45-70. I load mostly the 300 grain cast bullet and I shoot a lot of black powder though I also use some AA XMP 5744. With the 300 grain bullet trajectory is still a modified rainbow but flatter than heavier bullets and easier on the shoulder.

If you do go for the 45 Colt rifle get a Marlin or if a Winchester the model 92. Many of the 94s in 45 I've seen have feeding problems. Of course those I've seen were on the SASS range where we shoot them VERY fast. Once in a team event we had to shoot another team members gun and I got a Marlin in 45 Colt loaded with black powder. Very smooth running rifle, quite accurate and I shot it a lot without wiping the barrel. I was impressed.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:56 pm

If you opt for a 45Colt, I'd recommend an '92 clone. The mdl 94 Winchester is a strong action, BUT, it's length is a definite drawback. For lightweight packing, the mdl 94 or Marlin 1894 in 45Colt is hard to beat. And will eat up anything, power-wise, your 45Colt handcannons will! If you have Colt SAAs, or clones, you might select an 1873. It will be safe with any load suitable to the Colt SAA, but, I wouldn't trust one with loads over that pressure level.

The 45-70 is a great old cartridge. If you opt for this caliber, frankly, get an 1886. A Browning clone will get you exactly what a Winchester original was, but with modern steel. The new Winchesters I understand, are quite nice, but pricey.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:26 pm

I have both, Buy which ever one you find 1st, then save up and buy the other one. Todd/3leg

Tom Mix · Post by **Tom Mix** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:24 pm

I love my son's Marlin 1895G in 45-70.

BILLYDIXON · Post by **BILLYDIXON** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:37 pm

If your going to sell ur fal u could buy both. If it's a Belgian fal there worth about $4500. I've had one for 30 years. The ammo is expensive why don't u load. I've been loading since 1976. I have a lot of lever actions a 86, 76, 73, 92 and one of my favorite a 95 carbine in 30/40. Im not putting you down but I would buy both. I've had a .45/70 since 1976. I bought a Browning 92 in .44 magnum. I'll probably buy a Rossi either in .44 mag or .45 Colt. I would say buy both. I'm not very good with telling people what to do. So that's my .02 cents.

don1911 · Post by **don1911** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:48 am

My FAL is Enterprise. It was built during ban era. It's a parts gun that is not worth as much. I don't think anyone would pay $1000 for it.

I am learning to reload. So far just handgun calibers. Maybe that why I have been leaning towards 45 colt levergun. I had a Marlin 1895 big loop guide gun in 45-70. I should have never sold it. It was my most favorite rifle ever. I'll probably end up getting another one and reload for it.

don1911 · Post by **don1911** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:50 am

If my FAL sold for enough money I would buy both. Yeah!!!!

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:40 am

Maybe a levergun in .454 Casull would be a useful compromise.
It would share .45 Colt ammo with the revolver for many purposes, but approach 45-70 ballistics with 300 grain and heavier bullets in .454 loadings.

Jack

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:47 am

don,

I've had no experience with 45-70s so I'll let others speak for those. However I've had a few lever guns in 45 Colt.

My first was the 1985 vintage Win 94 Trapper. First year anyone made a lever gun in .45 Colt. I've had it since 1986 and have thousands of rounds through it without any breakage. Only changes have been to replace the rebounding hammer action with the original design.

I've also had a Rossi 92 which was a piece of junque from day one. It left such a bad impression I haven't even looked another one. Maybe someday I'll try another 92 copy.

I also currently have a Marlin 1894 Cowboy with the 20" octagon barrel. That is one sweet little rifle.

So I'm gonna say this about that: If you can afford to, try a couple three different brands. Your intended use does make a difference on what models you get.
If all your going to do is plink or shoot CAS with light loads then the Italian copies of the Henry, 1866 and 1873 will work fine.
But if you have full sized Ruger revolvers and tend to shoot warmer loads and want to shoot those in the rifle too, you're better off with the Winchesters, Marlins .... or if you can find a good one, a 92 copy.

Oh, one more thing; a lot of people get their knickers in a bunch over the longer receiver of the 94 VS 92 design. The 94 Win receiver is less than an inch longer than the 92 Win. An insignificant amount. What it is, is personal taste. Some folks just don't like the 94s, or don't like them in pistol calibers, so they look for things to bash them about.

OK, one more one more thing; Reloading .45 Colt brass for the rifles is no big deal. Yes they tend to have max dimension chambers but unless you're shooting CAS squib loads it's no big deal.
And even if your pushing them at Ruger level loads, no big deal. Just load them normally and don't worry about it.
A lot of folks will say to neck size them, well I don't, I just run them full length into a carbide die and use 'em.
However, Redding is selling a two ring carbide die that I want. It sizes the body of the case to normal dimensions, and then sizes the case mouth area tighter for good neck tension. That should get a much better fit. And yes they are ridiculously expensive, but when you shoot as much .45 Colt as I do / did, it's worth it.

Just my two bits worth.

Joe

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:13 am

I'm a 45/70 fan, don't have any 45s, have shot daughter's stainless rossi 92, not impressed.

seems to me that throw-weight is the decicing factor. if you want to shoot the range of bullets that the 45LC accomodates, then either gun will suffice, but if you like heavy for caliber rounds, then only one will do it.

I shoot 405g in my 44mag (heaviest load) and 420g (lightest load) in my guide gun. it's a heavy bullet in the revolver and a medium weight in the guide gun, with higher velocity potential in the carbine, so I think of 405g as the crossover weight. I suppose you can get there in 45LC, but I never see any loads going that way.

It's about the bullet,

don1911 · Post by **don1911** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:06 am

jhrosier wrote:Maybe a levergun in .454 Casull would be a useful compromise.
It would share .45 Colt ammo with the revolver for many purposes, but approach 45-70 ballistics with 300 grain and heavier bullets in .454 loadings.

Jack

Thought about that. The only 454 rifle I've found is made by Rossi. Don't want another Rossi.

don1911 · Post by **don1911** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:54 am

I have a Rossi 357 rifle. Hated it when I first shot it. After Stevie's guns slick up kit, I love it. But I won't buy another Rossi product. Never shot a 45 colt rifle. Had a Marlin 1895 guide gun big loop in 45-70. Should have never sold it. I'll probably just get another one. It was my most favorite rifle I've ever had.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thank you all for sharing them.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:21 am

don1911 wrote:I have a Rossi 357 rifle. Hated it when I first shot it. After Stevie's guns slick up kit, I love it. But I won't buy another Rossi product. Never shot a 45 colt rifle. Had a Marlin 1895 guide gun big loop in 45-70. Should have never sold it. I'll probably just get another one. It was my most favorite rifle I've ever had.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thank you all for sharing them.

If the FAL is reliable i'd keep it and pick up another Guide Gun whenever you can (in a way, most of them are "parts guns" with the massive amount of international licensing those and the G3 had - unless its a spendy belgian original )

I love my Guide Gun. and they can be had between 5 and 600 regularly,

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:07 pm

If you are getting only one it should be a 45/70 IMO. It's a lot more flexible and can be loaded light or heavy depending on your application. Besides, if you are going to load high pressure 45LC or 454 loads, the rifle will probably need to be close to the same weight as one of the lighter 45/70 rifles.

My personal preference is for a lightweight 22" barrel rifle with a half mag. Something weighing 7-7.5lbs, has a straight grip, shotgun butt stock and wears a peep sight. A Win 1886 lightweight or an early Marlin would be where I'd start.

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:20 pm

don1911 wrote: I am learning to reload. So far just handgun calibers. Maybe that why I have been leaning towards 45 colt levergun. I had a Marlin 1895 big loop guide gun in 45-70. I should have never sold it. It was my most favorite rifle ever. I'll probably end up getting another one and reload for it.

The 45/70 being a straight wall case is like a large pistol round and you would follow the same procedure. Not that reloading bottleneck cases is much different anyways. You really need to be reloading for either cartridge to get the most out of them.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:50 pm

Griff wrote:If you opt for a 45Colt, I'd recommend an '92 clone.

Yes! String action and can take +P+ rounds if you need to use them. The 1873s and 1866s....no. My Cimarron 1866 and Uberti Henry are for plinking and my 1892 (Miroku) Winchester is for anything I want to use it for. I've killed 2 or 3 mule deer with it, using +P+ rounds (PMC using 300 gr Hornady XTP at 1400 fps)

Griff wrote:The 45-70 is a great old cartridge. If you opt for this caliber, frankly, get an 1886. A Browning clone will get you exactly what a Winchester original was, but with modern steel. The new Winchesters I understand, are quite nice, but pricey.

Except for the inertia firing pin, which can be replaced if it become a problem. I've got a Browning 1886 rifle and a Browning 1886 SRC. The rifle (26" barrel) gets heavy if you're going to hunt with it.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:45 pm

Anybody have comments on the new(er) 45-70 guns from Marlin?
I'd still take one over a Rossi, I think.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:33 pm

Rossi's are like a poker hand... you get a great one, an OK one or a dud.

My great one was a 16" 45 Colt, which stayed in the family but may be coming home. See... that rifle snookered me. I thought they were all that good.

The NIB .357 that followed it was the dud. I eventually made a rifle out of it, but suffice it to say I can now disassemble/reassemble a 92 with a fifth of whiskey in me and table salt in my eyes.

I never got the 'OK' one and won't take a chance on another. The short 45 is well-proven and welcome here if it comes back.

I've had a 45-70 or two. Great cartridge. Here's how I view it's relationship to the 45 Colt: what the 45 strains all day to do, the 45-70 does before breakfast without breaking a sweat. And I dearly love the 45 Colt.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:31 am

Don't get me wrong, the 45-70 is a great cartridge. However, depending on where you live, you're lugging around a big rifle full big cartridges that are mostly empty. For most of us, a 92 in .45Colt is more than capable enough for what we do. Cheaper to shoot and practice, with more versatility overall I think.
Truth is, I just don't shoot my 45-70's that much. My pistol caliber carbines get run a lot.

Ultimately, you should get both, just get the 45 first.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:51 pm

"...mostly empty..."??

Not so, says i...

56 grains of H-335 under a 405 grain hard-cast slug is nearly 90% loading density, and gives just over 1900 fps from a 22" barrel..

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:41 pm

JFE wrote:Besides, if you are going to load high pressure 45LC or 454 loads, the rifle will probably need to be close to the same weight as one of the lighter 45/70 rifles.

My 16" Rossi in 454 Casull is NOT unpleasant to shoot (factory recoil pad instead of metal buttplate), and is WAY lighter than my Marlin Guide-Gun. Feels lighter (and is much shorter) than my Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag, too.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:04 am

Then, there's always a 3rd option:

460 S&W Big Horn Armory mdl 90

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:55 am

Buck Elliott wrote:"...mostly empty..."??

Not so, says i...

56 grains of H-335 under a 405 grain hard-cast slug is nearly 90% loading density, and gives just over 1900 fps from a 22" barrel..

Yes Buck, those were poorly chosen words on my part.

What I meant was, for many instances, there is a lot of un- needed potential. Obviously, if you live in Alaska, parts of Canada, Grizzly country.......an argument can be made. What I hear a lot from people though is, "good brush gun". If all you're doing is hunting whitetails at 75 yards, you're packing a lot of extra iron.
For 45-70, I actually prefer the '72 style, 22'' straight grip Marlin to the Guide Gun. Why have a 45-70 with all that powder in it and cut a bunch of barrel off?

I think a lot of people underestimate the .44mag, etc, out of a rifle. Especially with good bullet selection.

Unless I'm hunting moose or some of our larger black bears, I just don't use my "big levers" that much.
My 71 is just perfect for moose, but I don't care to lug it one bit when deer hunting.

Basically, after all this rambling.......bottom line......I'm a wussy.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:32 am

don1911, teddy Roosevelt thought the 45/90 was a bang up grizzly round 300 grn lead at 1500 fps a 45 colt in a carbine can do that. pick a 92 frame you like it will handle any animal that walks in No. America leave the jacketed HPs and SPs in the store get you some hard cast lead flat nosed bullets. I load Beartooth bullets in my pistol and rifle calibers for hunting and cast 1-20 alloy for every day carry and practice. Not all HC is good to go some have to much antimony content which will cause a HC to shatter if it hits pin bone. A wide flat nose is accurate out to 100 yds or so after that go with a medium or long flat nose. danny

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:53 am

Cowboy Tutt loaded me some Keith 360s that come out of my 20" Rossi at 1350. Recoil feels like a shotgun.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:36 am

Old Savage wrote:Cowboy Tutt loaded me some Keith 360s that come out of my 20" Rossi at 1350. Recoil feels like a shotgun.

Not being much of a shot gunner I got a very rude awakening when a friend of mine and I procured some 12 ga 3" magnum OO buck. My Sears version of the Win 1200 and his Rem 870 had been used mostly for bird guns until then. We loaded both shot guns full and gave 'em a try.
Well, the first of those 3" maggies darn near stomped us back on our keesters ... OUCH

.
I finished the rest of the first box and never fired any more.

So..... I sure hope those Cowboy Tutt loads don't feel like that.

Joe

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:25 pm

J Miller wrote:
Old Savage wrote:Cowboy Tutt loaded me some Keith 360s that come out of my 20" Rossi at 1350. Recoil feels like a shotgun.
Not being much of a shot gunner I got a very rude awakening when a friend of mine and I procured some 12 ga 3" magnum OO buck. My Sears version of the Win 1200 and his Rem 870 had been used mostly for bird guns until then. We loaded both shot guns full and gave 'em a try.
Well, the first of those 3" maggies darn near stomped us back on our keesters ... OUCH .
I finished the rest of the first box and never fired any more.

So..... I sure hope those Cowboy Tutt loads don't feel like that.

Joe

I got ahold of some hot 44 Mag loads and shot them through a Marlin '94 i had previously, and the effect was roughly as you described, Joe. - 1 mag full and i was done , - and also left scratching my head as to why anyone would load 'em that hot-

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:04 pm

scratching my head as to why anyone would load 'em that hot-

brownie.jpeg

any more questions?

personally not too recoil sensitive, less than some I guess, I get a kick shooting my heavy loads

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:30 pm

Grizz wrote:
scratching my head as to why anyone would load 'em that hot-

brownie.jpeg
any more questions?

personally not too recoil sensitive, less than some I guess, I get a kick shooting my heavy loads

I don't consider your 500 (525?) loads "hot".....A huge push, but not a sharp pain.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:33 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Grizz wrote:
scratching my head as to why anyone would load 'em that hot-

brownie.jpeg
any more questions?

personally not too recoil sensitive, less than some I guess, I get a kick shooting my heavy loads
I don't consider your 500 (525?) loads "hot".....A huge push, but not a sharp pain.

yes, the 525s are not hot, they are down-loaded from Marshal's data. Pretty close to 12ga 2-3/4 1oz slug recoil. NBD.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:32 am

Joe, I was very surprised at those 360s. The gun sort of pushed and rolled. They are kind of bottom end 45-70 ballistics. Should do fine unless you need the real power of more serious 45-70 loads.

don1911 · Post by **don1911** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:52 am

I once had a Marlin 1895 big loop guide gun in 45-70. My only mistake was selling it. It was my most favorite rifle. It really liked the Winchester 300 grain hollow points. Accurate. Destroyed targets. Never hunted with it. My favorite targets were watermelons (my dogs and wildlife always enjoyed cleaning the mess afterward) and frozen gallon water jugs that had food color added before freezing. They were like shooting colored glass blocks. Looked awesome at impact. Left no sharp dangerous glass shards like glass bottles would. It all melted into water. Truly a "green" target. It was fun though.

I've decided on replacing that 45-70 instead of another handgun cartridge rifle. I'll reload for the 45-70 to offset cost. When I want to shoot low cost handgun Ammo through a lever gun the Rossi 92 in 357 will do the trick.

Thanks for all your thoughts and comments.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:20 pm

Sarge wrote:Rossi's are like a poker hand... you get a great one, an OK one or a dud.

My great one was a 16" 45 Colt, which stayed in the family but may be coming home. See... that rifle snookered me. I thought they were all that good.

The NIB .357 that followed it was the dud. I eventually made a rifle out of it, but suffice it to say I can now disassemble/reassemble a 92 with a fifth of whiskey in me and table salt in my eyes.

I never got the 'OK' one and won't take a chance on another. The short 45 is well-proven and welcome here if it comes back.

I've had a 45-70 or two. Great cartridge. Here's how I view it's relationship to the 45 Colt: what the 45 strains all day to do, the 45-70 does before breakfast without breaking a sweat. And I dearly love the 45 Colt.

And home it came

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:04 pm

The Hornady 325grn. Flex tips gives you a 300 yard elk/moose gun in a 45-70, that will also handle big bear. The trade off is weight. My Browning 86 SRC is noticeable heavier than a 92 .44mag, with the 44 doing it's best work under 150 yards. Depends on what you want to do with it, and how much gun you want to carry.

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