Jack v. Elmer: Part Deux

[Blaine]

I'm with Elmer. Velocity is only needed to extend the range. A heavy for caliber bullet at a nice moderate velocity is all that is needed if you don't need to reach out past 150, 200 yards.

[jeepnik]

Must say I'm firmly in the larger caliber/heavier bullet camp. Nothing below .308 caliber except for .22's. My one and only small bore center fire was a gift. And should it come down to needing a rifle of that ilk I'll take the Scout/Squad over the AR every time.

[Ray]

Deleted.

[6pt-sika]

While I enjoy launching big hunks of lead from the 444's I am no Keith fan as such !

I am however a died in the wool O'Conner fan .

I thought the 270 WIN was the greatest thing since sliced bread until I found a 280 REM . And there's nothing wrong with a 270 I just liked 7 mm's a bit more . Now I still like the 7mm crowd but I'm more into the 6.5mm crowd .

[PriseDeFer]

Elmer, and nothing to do with ballistics. Big hat, big stories, it's the West.

[firefuzz]

I like both writers, but if you gave me a .270 I'd tell you up front I was going to trade it off.

Rob

[Booger Bill]

I have always liked what I call "sweetheart" rifles but like .44 specials and .45 colts for my handguns. While I have some I am not that fond of magnums. Really, it seems to me that about only three old basic cartridge`s will cover what must be a hundred will do.

[Griff]

I'm in the middle... I like my 45Colt and 45ACPs in the handgun department... never saw the need for magnums in hand cannons. Tho' I'm very partial to the .36 cal. 1851 Colt Belt Model for sheer shooting enjoyment. For work, I'll stick with the bigger bores... but even then, I'm inclined to the lighter than standard bullets. But, not less than 200 grains for work. Someone I very much respected told me 2 things that have stuck with me over the years since, "...handguns are something one needs in order to fight to ones rifle with," and "...and engaging the enemy at the longest possible range is preferable to handgun range fighting."

For rifles, heavy, long range work for game will be the 7mmRemMag... a proven performer at extended ranges with several different weights. But, now that I have sights for it, the .40-90SBN in the Sharps will be my main long range rifle. 4-½" of staff height should get me onto those "Indians" @ 1538 yards...

For short range work, (<200 yards), I'm still extremely pleased by the .30-30. But, will gladly substitute the .45Colt for that cartridge when ranges are <125 yards. Mainly as I'm enamored of the platforms both cartridges are found in. The '94 & '73 Winchesters.

[Blaine]

I thought the 270 WIN was the greatest thing since sliced bread until I found a 280 REM . And there's nothing wrong with a 270 I just liked 7 mm's a bit more . Now I still like the 7mm crowd but I'm more into the 6.5mm crowd .

Them little, bitty things are just fads, and will never hang around....

[Old Savage]

.243 to 30-06 more useful out here, Jack.

[6pt-sika]

I thought the 270 WIN was the greatest thing since sliced bread until I found a 280 REM . And there's nothing wrong with a 270 I just liked 7 mm's a bit more . Now I still like the 7mm crowd but I'm more into the 6.5mm crowd .

Them little, bitty things are just fads, and will never hang around....

[.45colt]

I am and always will be a Keith fan, He was human like everyone else but I think He told it like He saw it. I would like to have 10% of His drive and energy. this link shows the results of the "Keith Estate Collection" that was held last spring. He wrote about many of these firearms in His books and letters/articles. http://www.gunsandammo.com/historical/e ... n-auction/

[7.62 Precision]

I'm with Elmer.

I'm with me.

And I say velocity, bullet design, bullet diameter, and bullet weight all need to be balanced to make the cartridge effective for the purpose.

And I like heavy, slow bullets and I like fast, smaller diameter bullets, but with smaller diameter bullets, I always like high BC bullets that are heavy for caliber going at the appropriate speed, not too slow, not faster than necessary.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I agree with 7.62 , there is a use ,place and time for both camps opinions. Packing a .375 H&H around in the Deer woods is as much overkill as using a .243 for Moose is being under gunned.

That said, I used to really enjoy reading both and trying to keep up with the pen battle from month to month in the gun rags.

[7.62 Precision]

I agree with 7.62 , there is a use ,place and time for both camps opinions. Packing a .375 H&H around in the Deer woods is as much overkill as using a .243 for Moose is being under gunned.

That said, I used to really enjoy reading both and trying to keep up with the pen battle from month to month in the gun rags.

Except that I would argue with the idea of the .243 being undergunned for moose. Lots of moose are shot with .243s. Probably lots more with .223s. Seriously, though, I agree with what you are saying.

The pen battle sells magazines. As long as there are magazines to be sold, there has to be something to talk about.

[Chuck 100 yd]

7.62 , True! I once watched a video of a Canadian gent who popped a Moose in the lungs with a .32-20.
He promptly built a fire and brewed a pot of tea. After his tea ,he trailed the Moose to where it lady and sharpened his knife. I am afraid that if you tried that in the lower 48 today,you would find someone else packing your meat out. Most go for DRT kills in today's overcrowded hunting areas.

[Canuck Bob]

Being a self declared 444 advocate I could hardly jump ship now. I spent a lot of my hunting days in good game country on foot. One could encounter a coyote, a deer, or possibly a moose. To this day I do not consider a bolt action a great hunting rifle and self loaders make great 22LR shooters.

I tried 243 BLR for deer, 7MM RM 700 lefty for bigger game, and 375 H&H Ruger #1 for silly clout, all partitions. They are long gone and the 444 is still here. I found the fast small bullet did not perform as advertised for me. my favorite fast bullet was a 235 gr in a 375 H&H! Minimum for deer is 30-30 170 grain and 265 Horn FN 444 for bigger or mixed game country. Of course I'm a geezer as anyone debating this topic might be!!

[7.62 Precision]

Most go for DRT kills in today's overcrowded hunting areas.

They can go for it, but it doesn't mean they'll get it.

And the latest wonder magnums don't deliver it any better than an '06 or a 6.5x55

On the other hand, most of the last things I have shot have died pretty much where they stood. Caribou with a .45 Colt dropped in place, caribou with a 7.5x55 took one step, slowly knelt down, slowly put its chin on the ground, and then after a bit his head tipped over. Moose with a .348 Win dropped so fast that I didn't know where it was - I thought it had left. Bear with a .30-40 Krag was dead six feet from where the first shot hit it, and died in about 2 minutes.

Any one of them could have just as easily gone different, though, and I could have been tracking them.

BY the way, the third shot on that particular bear went through the femur just at the thick point at the top of the knee joint, exited the other side of the thigh, entered the side, taking out a couple rear ribs, crossed the body forward, punched through the far side ribs just by the armpit, entered the top of the foreleg just below the shoulder, punched through that leg and ended up making an exit hole at the far side, except that a single thin strand of skin snapped the bullet back and held it. There were three fragments under the skin on the far side, and the largest fragment was 169 gr. If I had shot the same bullet from a .300 WM, it most likely would have blown apart in the knee, and never entered the body.

[7.62 Precision]

Being a self declared 444 advocate I could hardly jump ship now. I spent a lot of my hunting days in good game country on foot. One could encounter a coyote, a deer, or possibly a moose. To this day I do not consider a bolt action a great hunting rifle and self loaders make great 22LR shooters.

Never yet seen a bolt gun that carries or handles like a lever action . . .

[Mainehunter]

For me it's really based on where your hunting. Both have valid points on the matter. I lean towards what Elmer is explaining since my shoots are less than 100 yards or so BUT there are times in the clear cuts shots can be up to 200 yards or so. One thing for sure is I'm envious on how much shooting and hunting they both did and they both know how to write a good story! Something I have yet to find in this day and age

Mainehunter

[Old Savage]

Well, you know, I put two 300 gr Barnes bullets through a three point, both lungs at 1750 fos, 30-35 yds and it just seemed to make him madder. Less confidence there. KirkD said he saw the same with a 12 ga. slug. I will take light and fast!

[JB]

There's a need for both light fast bullets and slow heavy bullets, but most of my shooting now day is medium bullets and medium velocity. Accuracy and mild recoil