Dumb 45 Caliber Question

[Homer]

John Linebaugh says:

"Now with this big caliber, heavy slug theory in mind I would like to throw out another.."myth" ...I will call it, that enters my mind. That is the never-ending story that full-power loads must be used. More power is always a welcome thing to have on hand, IF one can utilize it by hitting his intended target. If not, super power is harmless. Now I am a firm believer in Robert Ruark’s advice. "Shoot enough gun, and if you can’t, or won’t learn how to, STAY HOME!" But some of us may be in a situation that enough shooting can’t be done to harden ones nerves against blast and recoil. I myself have this problem as I proof my big guns several times, not just 6 shots, and then shoot them extensively before shipping to owner. Most of my big loads exceed .44 Magnum "considerably". I do not do this on a daily basis so I must fight flinch in between times. This is why I like the .45 Colt so much, as its big heavy slugs will perform even though I stay far away from anything resembling heavy loads. (Perhaps I should use the word "magnum loads" here, but I detest the word.)

A prime example of this happened a couple years ago. My wife and I made a quick antelope hunt. I found at the last minute the only .45 Colt ammo I had on hand was 8.5 gr. WW 231 under a 260 Keith cast slug. In her 4 5/8" Seville Birdshead grip this load chronographs an even 850 fps. Just a factory equivalent load with a good bullet. To make a long story short she shot a big doe antelope at around 90 yards. The old doe made a gallant attempt to keep up with the departing band of sisters, but got weak-kneed in 10 steps and died almost instantly. The big Keith slug penetrated both lungs cutting a full perfect .45 caliber hole right through. I want to say I don’t recommend this sort of thing unless you shoot very straight, or on any game over the size of deer. But the fact remains that good killing power exists well below the "bellerin" level. To those who like milder loads I will say this; I feel personally this sort of thing should be confined to the .44 and .45 caliber guns. Others just don’t have enough caliber or bullet weight to be dependable performers in this area."

Now if this is the case, and I agree it is. Then can't 45 ACP using Double Tap's +P 255 grain hard cast KSWC @ 875 fps do exactly the same thing? It seems to me it can.

A couple years back I took my granddaughter hunting deer in the high country (she killed her deer with a 30-30 Win.) and intended to use my old Ruger NMBH 4.5 inch 45 Colt as my carry gun. The biggest predator in the area is black bear and I wanted something that would make an impression on one if needed. While, upon rising before light on opening day after camping in the snow I strapped on the Blackhawk and it felt like a box of mechanic's tools hanging off my hip. I took it off and chucked it in the truck and put my SIG 9MM back on and breathed to myself "no bear is stupid enough to run out in this snow" and went about the hunt. So here it is, I can carry an 45 Colt anchor weighing over 40 ounces empty or a 45 ACP weighing 24 ounces and accomplish the same task - or can I? I'm inclined to go with the lighter gun. What do you all think?

[7.62 Precision]

For bear, I like something a bit heavy and moving at a decent speed. It doesn't have to be outrageous - I have no use for a 500 S&W because I can cary a carbine as easily.

But in a revolver a .45 Colt or .44 Mag with heavy, non-expanding bullets moving at decent speeds makes me feel better. For deer and stuff . . . my dad killed a bunch with his little .38 SPC S&W. A .45 ACP can work.

Still, if you want the auto pistol, think about a .460 Rowland conversion, maybe.

[wolfdog]

Can you shoot the 24 oz 45 acp as well as the 40 oz colt? If so then yes.The 45 acp was designed to duplicate the 45 Colt load out of an auto pistol.

[JohndeFresno]

You said "Dumb 45 Caliber Question" so I immediately opened up the thread thinking that I would be qualified to give you a dumb answer! But I will be interested in hearing the answers of some of our (truly) expert hunters and shooters here.

What I have learned from my modest amount of range testing merely validates several posts I have picked up over the years right here in this forum:
A large (flat) meplat on a reasonably hard large caliber bullet, just loafing along, will provide what I would call shockingly deep penetration, with a consistent, nice big hole, per my own tests. And perhaps the sharp (front) shoulder of the Keith type bullet or its clones aids in cutting straight through the game or test media.

I would trust my .44 Magnum 240 gr. hard cast Keith type practice loads, around 1004 fps, for a large variety of game, were it not for our current non-lead ammo requirements for hunting in my area.

I am also extremely partial to the great old .45 Colt in a 255 gr. Keith bullet in the 755-1000 fps range. It is quite pleasant to shoot and accurate out of my Ruger Super Blackhawk. But again we are stymied from future game harvesting with that load around here, for the same reason.

Daily carry is a 1911 type .45 ACP with 230 gr. HST hollowpoints, adequate for any personal defense scenario. But I still have reservations about using cast SWC's in this semi-auto weapon, even with a lightly polished ramp. It's the positive feed issue that I would worry about. If bear or hog or other dangerous game is the target, I would want something very reliable; none of that "tap-rap-bang" nonsense would be welcome if the game decided to take things personally.

So there is one answer; but let's see what others - the experts - say.

[Malamute]

Carry guns are pretty personal decisions. I guess it depends on your ability to carry the gun comfortably, but I havent found a 40 oz gun to feel like an anchor. I carry a 4" Smith 29 or 45 Ruger SA and dont feel like its a problem or annoying at all. Perhaps holster choice makes a difference? Both of those are on a belt with cartridges also. I cant recall the number of days they were carried all day, and at times every day and I'd forget I had it on. Still, with back problems a little weight difference can be noticable, but if the weight difference means stepping down in power, the choice has to be made considering where and what you desire the gun to do for you if needed.

Have you weighed the flyweight 24 oz gun when loaded compared to the loaded 6 shot anchor?

For knocking around the yard, a glop is fine for sticking in the pocket, and is hardly noticed. For tooling around in the hills, a belt gun in appropriate caliber always gets the nod.

Johns piece is good. With similar bullets, the standard vel 45 Colt loads still penetrate well. Higher velocity can cause some more shock/bloodshot/whatever effect you like describe, and assists in jacketed or cast hollow point bullet expansion, but with plain cast, often just buys you flatter trajectory. There seems to be a balance point for penetration VS velocity in the cast bullet pistol realm of about 1200-1300 fps. Many want "The Most!!" when it comes to their calibers/loads, even though its not really needed in many instances. Decide what you want to do, and see what loads do that reliably, and you often find it doesnt take "The Most!!" to achieve it.

If someone decides they need or want an extra powerful gun and load for their deer or whatever hunting, fine, so long as they can shoot them well.

I agree with John D about reliability of unusual loads in self loading guns. I prefer revolvers for field guns for that reason. One guy on another forum has between himself and his wife about a dozen glock 10mm guns and finds they dont run reliably with the top end hard cast loads available. Good theory, lots of 10mm bullets for bear protection in AK, but the guns just dont run reliably with the loads he wants to use for that purpose. Glock reps tell him those loads are outside the intended performance range the guns were intended for.

[Homer]

Can you shoot the 24 oz 45 acp as well as the 40 oz colt? If so then yes.The 45 acp was designed to duplicate the 45 Colt load out of an auto pistol.

Yep, I can shoot them both well enough. The only real advantage (assuming the velocities we're discussing) of the 45 Colt over the 45 ACP is the platform - you can stick a revolver muzzle into the ribs of a beast and it will fire, where you can't do the same with a semi-auto - which will go out of battery.

If I were hunting a black bear - which is different than the situation in this discussion - I'd use a full power 45 Colt or 44 Magnum.

[Homer]

Heap good responses.

I've carried heavy guns in the woods and deserts for years, but as gray hair has cropped up in places I've never expected and weight has become a factor, not to mention 20 years of systemic arthritis, I feel every once I carry. But, I still hunt and I still take my grandkids hunting and intend to do so until I depart to my Savior's side my Savior's name is Jesus). Until then, I will try to make things as comfortable as possible. Heck, I even carry lightweight knives nowadays.

For the last 10 years I found that even a heavy sidearm can be carried with a good set of suspenders, but even that is beginning to loose its effectiveness.

As for the reliability question - it is valid in spades. Six for sure can trump 10 maybe. But perhaps I've been lucky, because my Glock's chambered in 10MM feed and digest hard cast solids without a hitch - every time. But I don't intend to carry a Glock, for a number of reasons off this topic. My Ruger P90 also feeds and digests 45 ACP hard cast with boring regularity. But what I hope to use is a SIG P250 Compact. I carry the subcompact SIG in 9MM all the time and it never misses a beat. And the SIG P250 is DOA and as simple a pistol as they make - far more simple than a Glock or the Ruger. So, I assume that it will work with Double Taps loads all day and all night without a problem. I will, of course, verify this before taking it afield.

Anyway, I just wanted your opinions. Thanks.

[BigSky56]

a 45 255 HC @900 fps shoots thru a big muledeer on a chest shot so does a 357 180, a good read is the the large and dangerous game Col Wesson killed with a 357 using 158 & 173 gr SWC and 2400 powder. It doesnt take a big magnum to kill animals, for years my Dad has used a 250 savage and still kills deer & elk. as WDM Bell said it where you hit them not what you hit them with. danny

[Grizz]

Good to see you around Homer.

Did you catch my comment above about the load I used in my meat gun?

About the revolver in the ribs. You have to be able to cock it unless it's double action. Reason I quit carrying single action in the bear woods and have a redhawk. that load is 405gr at approx 950fps.

Work out the momentum for those numbers and the bone crushing keep on going factor depends on weight. the redhawk will safely run the 405 at 1050fps, but I don't see any benefit. If I need the range I'll just use the carbine. At the ACP velocities the 405 will cause more damage on a shot to shot basis.

The slower velocities also work to keep the bullet together. I don't subscribe to the 556 blow up the bullet theme for making meat or stopping brer bear. I like the effect of solids and don't trust bullets that break apart. I give them a hammer test and compare them in firewood. BTB makes the toughest I've found so far.

The 556 will penetrate steel that the cast solids bounce off of, but would not be my choice for anything but coyotes of the several varieties.

But hey, I'm pretty sure you're just as experienced in all of this as anyone I know, and didn't we cover all this on the patio?

[Pete44ru]

.

I agree with Mr. Linebaugh...................

A miss (IOW, a non-telling shot) with a magnum/heavy load is still a miss.

A bullet of ANY weight, especially one placed in the head(brain) or spine, is much more desireable.


.

[Homer]

Good to see you around Homer.
Did you catch my comment above about the load I used in my meat gun?
BTB makes the toughest I've found so far.
But hey, I'm pretty sure you're just as experienced in all of this as anyone I know, and didn't we cover all this on the patio?

Hi Grizz. I was hoping to you'd respond - good to hear from you. No, I didn't catch your meat maker load - I'll look for it. I'm sure it's a good one. Double Tap uses BTB in their cast bullet loads. I'm down to my last Redhawk and am real interested in the new round butt 4.2" Redhawk 45 Colt. But I'm testing reality or at least trying to get some opinions on reality before I spend my money. I sold my 7.5" Redhawk 45 Colt because I usually grabbed my 44 Magnum to hunt with. I grabbed it because I had ammo handy and because of weight. But I'm once again thinking of buying an "desert gun to hang out near the ripened tuna patch" a place the bears frequent (boy the tunas a juicy ripe right now - I ate one this weekend while out trying to scare up a big diamondback). And thinking of the climb getting there, the 45 ACP came to mind and then the Linebaugh article (which I've read at least 20 times) - hence the question. SIG makes a dandy little DOA only (easy transition from semi-auto to DA revolver) pistol called the P250. The P250 has conversion kits that allow you to convert it to 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP for a little over $300 bones. So I was thinking of getting one in 45 ACP (I already have the mother ship). So, I was asking this board for opinions to help me make the decision.

As you know, I walk the desert and local mountains so weight and ease of carry matters, but adequate power also matters. I never feel under gunned with my 357 Magnum revolver, but I do - in some areas of the desert - feel under loaded (6 verse 10+) and slow to reload. Lately I've carried a Ruger P90, and like it, but a compact P250 would be nearly half a pound lighter, carry the same amount of ammo, and be in 45 caliber. Anyway, we'll see where this goes - perhaps another patio visit is needed.

[Homer]

a 45 255 HC @900 fps shoots thru a big muledeer on a chest shot so does a 357 180, a good read is the the large and dangerous game Col Wesson killed with a 357 using 158 & 173 gr SWC and 2400 powder. It doesnt take a big magnum to kill animals, for years my Dad has used a 250 savage and still kills deer & elk. as WDM Bell said it where you hit them not what you hit them with. danny

The 250 Savage is a dandy cartridge. And the 45 Colt load you mention is one of my mainstay loads - it either busts up or makes a big hole in just about anything it hits - and it's easy to shoot too.

[Pisgah]

Two years ago, I bought a Springfield XD-S 3.3 in .45 ACP. I carried it as a backup while deer hunting, as it was so compact and light, and fit nicely in the pocket of my pants allowing me to sling my rifle over my right shoulder without it banging against the handgun. One afternoon I shot a buck while several hundred yards from my truck, and not wanting to struggle with my rifle or leave it in the woods during a fairly long drag, I scooted back to the truck, locked up the rifle, and walked back to the buck. As I prepared to sweat, I looked up and saw a fat doe standing broadside about 35 yards away. I had a doe tag, but drat! No rifle! Then, I remembered the .45, drew it slowly from my pocket, and sent a 230 gr. jhp straight through her lungs. She dropped right there -- and now I had TWO drags to make!

BTW, I had no doubt the .45 ACP would work. I've killed 4 others quite handily with a 1911 and one with a S&W 1917, you see...

[tman]

Defense up close, as opposed to hunting at extended range, the 9mm, 40, 45 acp will work about the same as a 45 L colt, 44m, etc. You gotta carefully place the bullets and keep shooting until the threat is over.

[7.62 Precision]

I'm not sure we are completely clear on the purpose - is it for bear protection or is it for hunting? For bears, penetration is almost everything, and that means through bone and stuff. Blacks are easier than browns. .45 ACP has been used successfully, but if you get into heavier bullets, make sure it functions. 9mm has been used successfully, and I know people who hunted and killed bear with .22s, and a 5.7mm. Still . . .

I used to carry 357 SIG because as I went between in-town and edge-of-town or in the yard where I would see bear, and the 357 SIG with FMJs penetrates really well.

The thing you get with .45 Colt is the ability to use heavier bullets of a better design for the purpose. They don't have to be smoking fast, but heavy is nice.

[Homer]

I'm not sure we are completely clear on the purpose - is it for bear protection or is it for hunting? For bears, penetration is almost everything, and that means through bone and stuff. Blacks are easier than browns. .45 ACP has been used successfully, but if you get into heavier bullets, make sure it functions. 9mm has been used successfully, and I know people who hunted and killed bear with .22s, and a 5.7mm. Still . . .

I used to carry 357 SIG because as I went between in-town and edge-of-town or in the yard where I would see bear, and the 357 SIG with FMJs penetrates really well.

The thing you get with .45 Colt is the ability to use heavier bullets of a better design for the purpose. They don't have to be smoking fast, but heavy is nice.

Bear protection, not hunting. I'll use something else for that. This is for the off-chance a bear stumbles into my tent or I trip over a cub while stalking a buck. Shots within a few yards and no more.

I'd like to hear about that 357 SIG of yours. Killed anything game with it? Does it get it done better than a 45 ACP?

[BrianSH]

I have heard it said..."that if you want to eat it, use jacketed hollow points. If it wants to eat you, use hard cast."

And then there's the 10mm G-20 weight angle to maybe think about. Lots of fire power in a small package. -Brian

[gundownunder]

I strapped on the Blackhawk and it felt like a box of mechanic's tools hanging off my hip.

I'd hazard a guess and say that's because of the leatherwork rather than the gun. I can carry a 40oz single six or security six all day around our range and not even notice it's there. I had a gunbelt made for me by a leather craftsman who shot at our club till he died. That belt fits like it belongs on my hip even with the holster hanging loose. If we were allowed to carry in the bush here in Oz I would add a tiedown to hold the holster to my thigh but other than that I'd be good to go.

I guess the 45 ACP has one advantage, if 230 grains of lead isn't enough you can add another 1500 grains real quick if you need to.

[Grizz]

I have heard it said..."that if you want to eat it, use jacketed hollow points. If it wants to eat you, use hard cast."

Hey Brian, I have read just the opposite, and in my experience the hard cast is a winner every time. It breaks bones, it leaves two wound trails, although only the heart shots ever ran, and you can eat right up to the hole

Regards

[7.62 Precision]

I'd like to hear about that 357 SIG of yours. Killed anything game with it? Does it get it done better than a 45 ACP?

357 SIG Springfield XD

I killed a blue grouse with a neck shot a 25 meters, one shot! I was pretty proud of that shot! I was three days into being hungry, though. My brother shot an arctic hare with it a few minutes later.

Advantages with the 357 SIG for me is the increased penetration with FMJs (and HPs), the flat shooting ballistics (something about a pistol cartridge that drops only 4" at 100 meters from a 3" barrel appeals to me), and while there is little difference between any of the standard pistol cartridges from 9mm up to .45 ACP as far as real-world wounding characteristics, something about the 357 SIG is a little different, and there is statistical evidence to back up the theory that the 357 SIG does measurably better at stopping a threat than other cartridges, just as the .357 Magnum does.

Oh, and the reliability thing - you are stuffing a .35 caliber bullet into a .40 caliber hole every time you chamber a cartridge.

But even the 9mm will out-penetrate a .45 ACP in many situations. Through a car door, for example, the .45 ACP will often fail to penetrate, 9mm usually does much better, 357 SIG zips through like butter and will often penetrate the far door and exit the vehicle.

Smaller grip frame size in many pistols than a .45 ACP, higher magazine capacity.

Downsides are less magazine capacity than a 9mm, a little snappier recoil (more controllable than a .40 S&W though), expensive ammo, and lower magazine capacity than a 9mm.

I am carrying a 9mm now, for better controllability when shooting fast, higher magazine capacity, and cheaper ammo. I still like the 357 SIG though.

When I am in the bush, I carry a Ruger Old Vaquero in .45 Colt with 360 gr. hard cast.

If all you are around is black bears, the .45 ACP would not give me warm fuzzies, but I wouldn't be overly stressed, either. They are generally kind of wimpy at times, especially the little Lower-48 bears, and if it is a predatory attack, they can often be dissuaded pretty easy with any firearm. On the other hand, if it is protecting food, it can be more dangerous, and if it is a sow protecting cubs, look out.

[7.62 Precision]

A good cross-draw holster, perhaps? Keeps the revolver from dangling out on your hip, your rifle doesn't bang against it all day while you walk, and it isn;t in the way of your pack frame. Holds it close to your body. Also easier to draw with your off-hand if your shooting hand is getting chewed on.

[EdinCT]

Brian Peirce ( spelling?) who writes for handloader wrote of killing several Black bears with the factory 250 gr load in the 45 colt. They were inside of 60 yards or so and he seemed to have no problem killing them.
I think if you hit them in the lungs and shoot a load with the same ballistics you will get it done.

[J Miller]

I don't know the exact wording, and I don't have my books handy to check, but Elmer Keith commented in 6 Guns that if he had to carry factory ammo, he'd choose the .45 Colt and the UMC 40gr load as sold in the purple boxes.
That load is a 900 fps load from a short barreled revolver. That is about the same as the 9 grs of Unique load I carry. That charge under a 265 gr Keith bullet should take care of anything I need it to take care of. If it don't, I doubt a 300+ gr bullet at a higher velocity would.

Joe

[2X22]

Years before I ever read much about handgun hunting, I was killing deer (a lot of them!) with a 255gr cast at 950 from .44's and 255's at 800fps from a .45acp. Never had a problem nor every needed a second shot that I can remember. It was one of those things I never even thought about.

[7.62 Precision]

Brian Peirce ( spelling?) who writes for handloader wrote of killing several Black bears with the factory 250 gr load in the 45 colt. They were inside of 60 yards or so and he seemed to have no problem killing them.
I think if you hit them in the lungs and shoot a load with the same ballistics you will get it done.

Hunting and defense are totally different when it comes to bears.

Getting it done in hunting means a clean kill and the ability to track and recover the animal.
Getting it done in bear defense means stopping the bear's mobility and ability to inflict damage immediately.

I have no issue trusting .45 Colt factory loads to kill a black bear if I am hunting it. If it is trying to harm me, though, I want to break shoulders and hips and skull and spine and stuff. A bear with a hole through both lungs can still rip you apart and leave.

[EdinCT]

Elmer Keith told of a friend who shot through a Black bears head with a load of 10 gr of Unique and the 255 gr bullet during a charge. If you can shoot the 250 gr at 850 fps beats fingers and bare hands.
If you don't shoot well, it may not matter.

[Grizz]

A bear with a hole through both lungs can still rip you apart and leave.

And . . . a bear with a hole through his heart can still rip your guts out and knock your block off before it leaves.

[Griff]

I happen to like both of the American .45 caliber pistols. Which do I love better would be a hard choice. But I have several samples of each... and really can't recall any real distinction between the relative weight of the "platform" vs. firepower of the 45Colt or 45ACP. According to Wikipedia, the SAA w/7.5" barrel weighs in at a hair under 37ozs. The Colt 1911 with it's 5" barrel weighs in at just a tad more than 38ozs. For more than 30 years I've carried a Combat Commander in 45ACP, steel frame version, and have never felt it to be "too heavy". It's certainly lighter than either my 45 Colt SAAs or Government Model full-size 45ACPs. Even the Kimber Pro Carry runs 28ozs.

I've never shot game with either .45 cal. round. So performance wise, I have no advice... but on paper, they are close enough that I have no qualms about carrying either for SD purposes. For the most part, I think those that advise one over the other, performance wise, are just pickin' nits! Proper bullet selection is important with either. I do happen to like that in the Combat Commander, I can get 8 round magazines, vs. just 5 rounds I carry in my SAAs. That alone, will sometimes preclude the carrying of the revolver.

For a number of years I had to shoot a regular, timed, qualification course. I had to shoot a qualifying score with every gun that was one my "approved Duty Gun" list. For uniformed wear, the only authorized sidearms were 6-shot revolvers in .38Spl capable of handling .38Spl +P rated ammo. For me, the last on that list was my mdl 65 S&W 4" squarebutt. Like the mdl 10 & 19 before it, chambered in .357Mag I generally shot "perfect" scores, with "X" counts in the mid-high 30s out of a possible 60. Conversely, with my slightly heavier Combat Commander, and the decidedly more recoil 45ACP, I fall 4-6 points below "perfect" and "X" counts dropped into the high 29s-low 30s. I can only attribute this to the difference in recoil. I shot both guns thru this qualifying course at least twice weekly... I've used a 1911 type gun since 1970, only acquiring my first S&W in 1975, Even tho' I had to carry the S&W exclusively for a number of years, I still shot the 1911 more. And still prefer shooting it more. I just found a Kimber ProCarry II at a reasonable used price. I'm picking it up for my son. I know I'll get to shoot it. However, I don't expect to shoot it quite as well as I do either the steel framed Combat Commander or a full-size Government mdl. That lighter vehicle will definitely have a snappier ride that the old, heavy, clunker CC! I have no doubt that my recoil recovery times will suffer a shade over the CC...

Like Malamute stated above, a "Carry" gun is highly personal choice, and as usual, a choice full of compromises. Making informed, intelligent choices vs. emotional ones could very well be the key to survival. To that end, I can only recommend that you shoot both, under whatever stress inducing circumstances you can put yourself thru. Carry that gun which is then proved that you can shoot best under stress. 6 shots in a "lightweight" caliber that land in a kill zone are better than 8, heavies, spread out into whatever extremities get in the way of a bullet! If, with practice, you can bring that heavy caliber into the kill zone... it becomes a no-brainer. I once told a class, when questioned as to why I carried a 45: "1840 grains beats 948 in the same localized area."

[Dirty Bob]

I'm a big fan of the Ruger New Vaquero. In dimensions, it's comparable to the beloved Colt SAA. Mine has the short barrel, but a 7.5-inch barrel wouldn't add all that much weight and would probably boost velocity a bit.

I shoot mine with a ... wait for it ... 255 Keith bullet (Lyman mould) at 800-900 fps. Velocity's a guess, with no chrono. It's the Blue Dot load from the Lee manual, 2nd ed. It fills the case a bit over halfway and makes a double charge pretty hard to do. Recoil from the New Vaq. is mild, so mild that when I didn't own .45 Colt dies, I just used .45 ACP dies. I'd "neck size" the brass, and used a taper crimp after seating! I had no problems, but now I use .45 Colt dies, so I can use my ammo in a levergun.

I once shot the Blue Dot load completely through 7 1-gallon milk jugs (all that was left during a testing session). It continued into the berm and was in remarkably good shape when I dug it out.

From my trapper, the above load takes on a different character. It's definitely hitting harder, and I can shoot it FAST. For home defense, I have that Rossi trapper in .45 Colt, loaded with cowboy loads. They're factory, feed well, and are no slouches out of a 16-inch barrel.

45_semiwadcutter__fired.jpg

[Homer]

A lot of good responses - I appreciate it.

I forgot about the Vaquero's little sister and will have to take a closer look at one. Right now I'm leaning toward a steel and plastic 45 ACP or steel and alloy 45 ACP. Both will weigh substantially less than any sixgun (scabintin, excepted) and offer the a bit more ammo capacity with fast reloading capability, the later of which wouldn't matter in a bear fight, but might be useful in other self-defense situations.

Thanks again guys.

[7.62 Precision]

. . . with fast reloading capability, the later of which wouldn't matter in a bear fight, but might be useful in other self-defense situations.

It could matter in a bear defense situation. Sometimes they can go on for some time. Train to reload one handed while someone big drags you around and shakes you!

Defense against humans is as much a concern or more for me any time I am in the woods, if I am near civilization, especially. More likely to run into a dangerous wacko than a dangerous bear.