Testing Vintage Military Rifles At 500 meters

[Shasta]

I've been working with a 6.5x55 Model 96 Swedish Mauser and a .30-40 Krag Model 98 Springfield rifle in preparation for our club's Vintage Military Sniper Rifle Silhouette matches coming up this summer. Both have the original iron sights. I have focused on cast lead bullets for economy, and some interesting stuff is happening.

Using the RCBS 6.5-140-SIL cast lead bullet, I find that the Swede will not take down the heavy Ram targets at 500 meters, which is no surprise, but the funny thing is it shoots very consistently about four feet left of point of aim. Elevation is good. Switching to a 140 grain jacketed Barnes HPBT, point of aim is exact and the Rams go down. OK, I'll just use jacketed bullets on those Rams, but why is my cast lead bullet shooting so far left? The day I tested, the wind was dead calm and there was a high overcast so no shadows or mirage at all. It wasn't just me either, as my friend got the same results when he tried it.

With the Springfield, using the Lyman 311284 bullet at 1,800 fps, I have found that hard cast bullets seldom take down the Rams, regardless of where they are hit. I have better luck by casting them at a soft 25:1 and that will tip the Rams at least half the time. The soft lead is not leading up the bore, and I think it is less prone to shatter on the target, but again I got much better results using those expensive jacketed bullets. The big 220 grain round nose Sierra does the job every time!

I think I have the Ram loads figured out pretty well, so now I plan to start work on the 385 meter Turkey targets. I don't think the cast lead bullets will have any problem taking them down, but I'm wondering if that Swede will throw those shots left as well? There is no windage adjustment in the sights, so I'll have to rely on Kentucky windage if that's the case.

I've never had a bit of interest in military rifles until recently, and I find that I am enjoying these two very much!

SHASTA

[big bear]

You need a Swiss K31 and a Mosin PU or Finn or better yet, both!.,then you'll be cooking with gas

[92&94]

Second on the K31.... darn things are so accurate that they are almost boring

Never shot mine out to 500 though, just 300 with irons.

[wolfdog]

I love the Sweede, got to try hard to find a load that doesn't work in them. I had a 200 yard match to shoot in first Sunday of the month and I was out of the 120 SMKs I have been shooting in my M96, but I did have some 140 Noslers that I had bought as blems really cheap so the night before the match I loaded up 11 rounds I pick out of the Nosler book, one for a spotter and 10 to shoot the match.

98 2x which was good enough for second place(another guy with a Sweede shot a 98 4x), which I think is pretty good for an untested load.

[Shasta]

You guys shouldn't be putting ideas in my head! I've already got a nice Remington 03-A3 hiding in the safe that I haven't even shot yet!

Nice shooting there, wolfdog!

SHASTA

[Sixgun]

I regularly shoot 30-40's in an 1898 Krag and a pair of 1895 Winchesters, plus another 1895 Winchester and a Smith Carona 6 groove barrel (early one) in 30-06 at 500 meters. The cast bullet you are using, the Lyman 311284 was designed to be shot at long range in the 30-40 cartridge at 1600 fps. I use it in all 5 guns with 21 grains of 5744 for just a hair under 1600 fps at 55 degrees.

I believe if you lower the velocity and harden the alloy to something like I use (Lyman #2) , it will knock them over a bit better....at least that is what Vernal Smith (I can't remember pelosi anymore) you know, the guy who started LBT.....wrote in his book........he claims a hard alloy at a lower velocity knocks over the steel silhouettes better.

With this bullet I just shoot at clay birds and the stationary 500 meter ram so I don't know if it will knock them over. What I do know is that a hard 300 grain bullet traveling 1400 fps out of my Winchester Hi-wall in 40-82 will knock them over every time, no matter where I hit them as I use this rifle exclusively for our buffalo matches. I have never lost one....yet......the kinetic energies from both cartridges and their velocities are pretty close.-------6

[Shasta]

Six,

I appreciate your advice on the 30-40 Krag. I had it in my pea brain that I needed to soften my bullet and increase the speed. For whatever reason it did not occur to me that a slower speed might work better. I'm going to give that a try!

SHASTA

[CowboyTutt]

Shasta, I'm wondering about a possible explanation with the Swede. What is the shape of the lead silhouette bullet and what is the velocity at the muzzle you think with both bullets/loads? -Tutt

[Shasta]

Shasta, I'm wondering about a possible explanation with the Swede. What is the shape of the lead silhouette bullet and what is the velocity at the muzzle you think with both bullets/loads? -Tutt

Tutt,

As you can see, the RCBS cast lead bullet is a bore rider design. Load is 18.0 gr. 5744 for a chronographed velocity of 1713 fps. Shoots tight groups with no leading. Initial load testing was done at 50 yards and bullets impacted slightly right of center on the paper target.

The Barnes load is 42.5 gr. IMR 4350 with a loading book stated velocity of 2,500 fps. I have not actually chronographed this load.

SHASTA

[CowboyTutt]

So the lead bullet shoots slightly right at 50 yards but way left at 500 meters??? Curious. My initial thought is that you need more velocity with the lead bullet to stabilize it better? The Barnes bullet almost certainly is better balanced as a monolithic 98% copper bullet with only 0.1 or 0.2 air concentration. http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content ... s-MSDS.pdf and has a better BC due to its shape. Keep the information coming and I'll pass this on to McPherson. -Tutt

[Sixgun]

Shasta,
Beings that your rifle is a Swiss rifle, maybe the twist is a left hand twist and between that, a little bit of wind, sunlight on the front sight, and the slower velocity all combined make it shoot to the left.

I do know at our gun club (at 500 meters) my lead bullets all go several feet to the right while my high speed jacketed bullets with a scope will stay pretty much on.----6

[CowboyTutt]

Six, and Shasta, I do not know these Swiss rifles. I do know the 71/84 Mauser I have was notorious for shooting to the left without the stock rear sight being corrected "from the factory". I have never messed with my rear iron sights on it's matching numbers because of that, mine is bone stock and it shoots too well to mess with.

But I could see how changing loads would mess up the accuracy of the factory rifle. I'm just trying to help here, I am no expert with the rifles at hand.

Regards to you both!

-Tutt

[92&94]

I think the talk of Swiss is just big bear and me muddying the waters.

[Shasta]

Swedish, fellas, not Swiss. Swede for short!

SHASTA

[CowboyTutt]

What you say! I am no expert! But will do what I can! -Tutt

[stew71]

Hey Shasta....I shoot my 1902 Gustav Swede down here at our local MilSil matches at the Sac Valley Shooting Center. I've had good luck with the 140gr Sierra Matchkings over 41gr of IMR 4350. I had great accuracy with Varget but it lacked enough velocity and "oomph" to reliably bring down those 500m rams. I left a fair number standing on the rails. Switching to the 4350 solved the issue as long as I did my part.

Sorry....no help with cast lead bullets.

[firefuzz]

You guys shouldn't be putting ideas in my head! I've already got a nice Remington 03-A3 hiding in the safe that I haven't even shot yet
SHASTA

That's terrible. Drag that lazy beast out and put it to work. If you don't have time, send it to me....I'll hitch it up to a double tree with mine and make it pull it's weight. I promise it'll be well fed and cared for.

How many grooves in the barrel of your Remington?

Rob

[Shasta]

firefuzz,

My Remington 03-A3 has a 2 groove barrel dated 1944. It has a replacement CMP stock and all metal has been refinished. It looks brand new, and yeah, I need to knock the dust off it. It ought to shoot cast lead bullets as well as my Krag does.

SHASTA

[SteveR]

Shasta, I'm wondering about a possible explanation with the Swede. What is the shape of the lead silhouette bullet and what is the velocity at the muzzle you think with both bullets/loads? -Tutt

Tutt,

As you can see, the RCBS cast lead bullet is a bore rider design. Load is 18.0 gr. 5744 for a chronographed velocity of 1713 fps. Shoots tight groups with no leading. Initial load testing was done at 50 yards and bullets impacted slightly right of center on the paper target.

The Barnes load is 42.5 gr. IMR 4350 with a loading book stated velocity of 2,500 fps. I have not actually chronographed this load.

SHASTA

The design of the jacketed bullet, using the boattail and slightly faster speed, is what makes all the difference. I believe the Finnish with their D46 bullet, that is boattail, won them the Olympics in rifle match in the 1930's.
I believe the Finn's designed the boattail bullet.
Steve

[92&94]

Shasta, I'm wondering about a possible explanation with the Swede. What is the shape of the lead silhouette bullet and what is the velocity at the muzzle you think with both bullets/loads? -Tutt

Tutt,

As you can see, the RCBS cast lead bullet is a bore rider design. Load is 18.0 gr. 5744 for a chronographed velocity of 1713 fps. Shoots tight groups with no leading. Initial load testing was done at 50 yards and bullets impacted slightly right of center on the paper target.

The Barnes load is 42.5 gr. IMR 4350 with a loading book stated velocity of 2,500 fps. I have not actually chronographed this load.

SHASTA

The design of the jacketed bullet, using the boattail and slightly faster speed, is what makes all the difference. I believe the Finnish with their D46 bullet, that is boattail, won them the Olympics in rifle match in the 1930's.
I believe the Finn's designed the boattail bullet.
Steve

I may be wrong about it, but I recollect the first spitzer design being French.

[Sixgun]

92/94,
The only thing the French invented was a special skillet for eating snails. Come on....it's just a joke.

I am so "Nationalized" that I did not know what I was saying about the Swiss and the Swede.........and my mother lived in Sweden as a small girl...then she became a Nazi in Germany where my dad found her.....oh,,,,a never mind......I'm burnt out. I need to take a nap.-----6

[92&94]

They also ran a nice line in complex stationary fortifications that the panzer drivers could admire as they drove around them

[Shasta]

Well, firefuzz shamed me into it... I dug out that Remington 03-A3 this morning, put together some cast bullet loads, and headed to the local shooting area. Firing two 5-shot groups for each load at 50 meters from bench rest over the chronograph, best load was a .310" diameter hard cast 198 gr. Lyman 311299 bullet with 22.0 gr. Reloader 7 powder. Both targets had all five shots inside 1 1/4" with a velocity of 1,604 fps.



The 207 gr. Lyman 311284 bullet gave groups just under 2". The RCBS 30-180-SP did poorly with nearly 4" groups. The Lyman 311041 did pretty well with 1 1/2" groups.

The rear sight was not quite bottomed out for correct elevation on my 50 meter targets, so in trying to determine my maximum range with the original receiver sight, I fired a few shots at distant rocks on the hillside, and the bad news is that it appears I will run out of rear sight elevation around the 300 meter mark with cast bullet loads in the 1,600 fps range with the sights as is. I need to file down the front sight a bit. The good news is that after firing 80 cast lead bullets, there was not even one speck of lead in the bore upon cleaning it.

The Remington 03-A3 definitely has the best trigger pull and sight picture of my three old military rifles.


SHASTA

[Shrapnel]

Vintage Military rifles are at their best knocking down elk...

[firefuzz]

Well, firefuzz shamed me into it... I dug out that Remington 03-A3 this morning, put together some cast bullet loads, and headed to the local shooting area. Firing two 5-shot groups for each load at 50 meters from bench rest over the chronograph, best load was a .310" diameter hard cast 198 gr. Lyman 311299 bullet with 22.0 gr. Reloader 7 powder. Both targets had all five shots inside 1 1/4" with a velocity of 1,604 fps.






The 207 gr. Lyman 311284 bullet gave groups just under 2". The RCBS 30-180-SP did poorly with nearly 4" groups. The Lyman 311041 did pretty well with 1 1/2" groups.

The rear sight was not quite bottomed out for correct elevation on my 50 meter targets, so in trying to determine my maximum range with the original receiver sight, I fired a few shots at distant rocks on the hillside, and the bad news is that it appears I will run out of rear sight elevation around the 300 meter mark with cast bullet loads in the 1,600 fps range with the sights as is. I need to file down the front sight a bit. The good news is that after firing 80 cast lead bullets, there was not even one speck of lead in the bore upon cleaning it.

The Remington 03-A3 definitely has the best trigger pull and sight picture of my three old military rifles.


SHASTA

Good job. My Remington '03-A3 has a '44 dated, 2 groove barrel also. I think it'll surprise you with it's accuracy, especially with heavy bullets like you're using. The general "opinion" is that the 2 groove barrels aren't/weren't as accurate as the standard 4 groove barrels. My experience, this is my third 2 groove Remington, is that they will all shoot better off a bench than I am capable of any other way. I've never really tried cast bullets in an '06, but as soon as my vision clears up (fingers crossed here) I'm gonna change that.

Rob

[SteveR]

Shasta, I'm wondering about a possible explanation with the Swede. What is the shape of the lead silhouette bullet and what is the velocity at the muzzle you think with both bullets/loads? -Tutt

Tutt,

As you can see, the RCBS cast lead bullet is a bore rider design. Load is 18.0 gr. 5744 for a chronographed velocity of 1713 fps. Shoots tight groups with no leading. Initial load testing was done at 50 yards and bullets impacted slightly right of center on the paper target.

The Barnes load is 42.5 gr. IMR 4350 with a loading book stated velocity of 2,500 fps. I have not actually chronographed this load.

SHASTA

The design of the jacketed bullet, using the boattail and slightly faster speed, is what makes all the difference. I believe the Finnish with their D46 bullet, that is boattail, won them the Olympics in rifle match in the 1930's.
I believe the Finn's designed the boattail bullet.
Steve

I may be wrong about it, but I recollect the first spitzer design being French.

The French after dropping their rifles, found themselves at the "pointy" end of the German "Spitzgeschoss", which is German for "Spitzer" . The Germans were the inventor of the pointy bullet. And the great Model 98 bolt action, which still is used today.

What aids in long range accuracy is the "boattail" design that reduces the drag, which help to keep the bullet from "yawing" and holds more kinetic energy.

Steve

[92&94]

Darn it Steve, you made me go look it up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitzer_%28bullet%29

French get the prize. That one only stuck in the sieve of my memory because of the irony of it being the French who were first to develop modern rifle cartridges for the rifles so soon to be dropped.

[SteveR]

Darn it Steve, you made me go look it up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitzer_%28bullet%29

French get the prize. That one only stuck in the sieve of my memory because of the irony of it being the French who were first to develop modern rifle cartridges for the rifles so soon to be dropped.

Its funny how fast the bullet design was changing in the late 1880's early 1900's. It seems that most of the large European nations were making the same changes at around the same time. I see some German guy supposedly patented the Spitzer, but who really knows. I bet there was a lot of spying going on and they all were working at getting that spitzer working as quickly in their respective rifles.

I think I got the Finnish idea of inventing the boattail, was because of their D46 bullet. Which is still in production, as well as the D166 for the .310 barrels out there. I have some D46 and need to get to a long range to utilize the performance over 300 yards. They say after 600 meter and over 1000 meters, is where the D46 really shines.

Steve
PS sorry we got of on a tangent.

[Sixgun]

Steve and 92/94,
You guys may know your German and French stuff but I know something you don't know........that the Polish were the first ones to invent the 180 degree U shaped barrel......AND......they claim to be the first ones who used smokeless powder way back in 1962. There!----- ----6

[92&94]

Steve and 92/94,
You guys may know your German and French stuff but I know something you don't know........that the Polish were the first ones to invent the 180 degree U shaped barrel......AND......they claim to be the first ones who used smokeless powder way back in 1962. There!----- ----6

Smokeless powder, that's like an e-cig for guns right?

[w30wcf]

Shasta,

"With the Springfield, using the Lyman 311284 bullet at 1,800 fps, I have found that hard cast bullets seldom take down the Rams, regardless of where they are hit. I have better luck by casting them at a soft 25:1 and that will tip the Rams at least half the time."

Interesting. That has not been my experience. I have shot the NRA High Power silhouette Game and have found that hard bullets (20+ bhn) will work very well on the 500M rams. I load them to 2000 - 2100 f.p.s. and they have been very positive.

A few decades ago or so I read an article where the writer used a ballistic steel pendulum to determine the amount of force bullets would have at impact. He did that by measuring the distance that the pendulum moved. He tested a number of bullets, soft, hard and came to the conclusion that it did not matter what the bullet was made from if the weight and impact velocity was the same, the pendulum moved the same amount.

I have come to the conclusion that out of a bank of rams, 2 are rarely the same. Many factors come into play..... Are they standing straight? Leaning forward? Leaning back? Are the feet the same width? Where are they sitting on the stand...forward, center, back? Are they perfectly flat or slightly bowed? Which way is the wind blowing? Lots of factors to be sure!

A true test would be to set a bank of rams exactly the same and try one alloy, reset the same and try the other. Do both on the same day in the same conditions.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another forum awhile ago I fellow stated that, in his opinion, shooting soft cast 250 gr bullets slower would knock down steel falling targets faster. I knew from experience that was not true. So I set up a 500M ram and shot it in different spots with a few different loads.

One was a duplication of his .... 4/G. Dot which chrono'd 658 f.p.s. which did not knock the ram down. (blue circles on ram)
The other, a factory .45 Colt duplication 250 / 850 f.p.s. which did the job! (red circles)

My handle there was w44wcf.
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index ... ic=5470.15

w30wcf

[SteveR]

Steve and 92/94,
You guys may know your German and French stuff but I know something you don't know........that the Polish were the first ones to invent the 180 degree U shaped barrel......AND......they claim to be the first ones who used smokeless powder way back in 1962. There!----- ----6

I heard the German's sold a whole bunch of those 180 degree barreled rifles to the Pole, they called it a "Ein Schuss Gewehr", one shot rifle, but they still insisted on 30 round clips for it.......................

After 1962, the Poles quit buying them from the Germans, because now without all the smoke from the powder, (because they just invented it) They could figure out that the Ein Schuss Gewehr, didn't work right. I hear they modified all of the rifles to the 90 degree barrel, but the troops still complain when on the right side on the firing line .

Steve