It would be interesting to compare 45 ACP, 40 S&W, 9mm...

[AJMD429]

...in guns of the SAME format (Glocks would seem the natural choice).

We see lots of opinions on it, lots of anecdotal experiences, and of course many of us who have already developed a preference for one or another cartridge are skeptical of the others.

Take a few of each shooter type:

• 'newbie'
  'some experience but petite'
  'some experience but strong'
  'more experienced and prefers 9mm'
  'more experienced and prefers 40 S&W'
  'more experienced and prefers 45 ACP'

Give them three 'scenarios' with targets around 25 feet or so

• slow-fire targets,
  a single moving target, and
  multiple targets requiring prioritization

It would be interesting to see the results. While I have no problem with 1911 recoil in terms of it 'bothering' me, I would assume that I could recover for second or third shots more rapidly with a 9mm - IF it were in the same platform. On the other hand, the 9mm's I'm likely to carry are much smaller than my 1911, and actually I think recoil is worse and more distracting.

So yes, if 'concealability' or light weight is a high priority on a given day, I'll opt for the 9mm (don't have a 40), but the real question is....what about the days when I am fine with a full-size CCW gun...?

I have a full-size 9mm in a Taurus PT-92, and I haven't even formally compared that to my 45 ACP 1911 in terms of the above scenarios, but if I did, it might reflect more difference between 'platforms' (love that word ) than the cartridge itself.

Anyway, it would be interesting. I'm betting some police departments or military units have actually done that experimenting, but of course their results might not extrapolate to civilian shooters or scenarios.

I would think that in 'combat' one could make a case for a less powerful round that penetrated well even if not causing immediate lethality, if the tradeoff were a much higher magazine capacity and/or much better controllability for multiple targets all at once. On the other hand, the average civilian shooter is (I think) more likely to face fewer bad-guys (most often just one I'm suspecting), and may therefore need the balance shifted less towards volume of fire and more towards stopping-power within their limits of accurate same-target followup shots.

If someone wants to donate three Glocks and a few hundred rounds of ammo, I'd be glad to complete the 'more experienced and prefers 45 ACP' category of testing towards this noble end...

[tman]

Somebody did one shot test with pistol calibers. The 40 S&W and .357 Magnum came out on top, virtually equal.

[sore shoulder]

One shot at what? How many chamberings were included?

[horsesoldier03]

IMO, when it comes to a defensive pistol, yes it is important to get the first shot on target, but just as important to get those Double and Triple TAPS all on target as well. I would want more than a 1 shot study.

[JB]

Somebody did one shot test with pistol calibers. The 40 S&W and .357 Magnum came out on top, virtually equal.

There are far too many variables and opinions when it comes to what's best. If the test was purely on "stopping power", they evidently didn't test the 44 magnum, 454, and up.

[Malamute]

If the "one shot stop" is in reference to Marshals work, its been pretty well shown to be a work of fiction. Doesnt really apply to the question at hand in any event.


Doc, I've seen a fair amount of discussion elsewhere on this topic. Some do better with certain models, some with others. There are some consistencies when viewed overall.

[Old Ironsights]

Somebody did one shot test with pistol calibers. The 40 S&W and .357 Magnum came out on top, virtually equal.

That does not make sense. 10mm & .357, yes. .40sw & .357... no.

I've shot all 3, and carried .357 & .40. I prefer 10mm & .357 to .40 any day... (given my choice of equivelent rounds in 180gr sjhp...)

[Blaine]

If the "one shot stop" is in reference to Marshals work, its been pretty well shown to be a work of fiction. Doesnt really apply to the question at hand in any event.


Doc, I've seen a fair amount of discussion elsewhere on this topic. Some do better with certain models, some with others. There are some consistencies when viewed overall.

He pretty much was working for ammo companies when he put that list together.

[Old Time Hunter]

Interestingly enough, yesterday at a local gun show this subject came up between a consortium of different LEO's from various municipalities. They ranged from a petite young woman, could not have weighed more than a hundred and forty pounds...and that would be with her gear and a winter coat on to a mountain of a guy over six foot six inches and pushing well over three hundred pounds.

There was at least six in between.

The general consensus was a 9mm.

National studies have shown the average shooting incident in the United States when LEO's are involved, has a range of ~ 20 ft.

All agreed that the 9mm was the most consistently accurate at that range. What really surprised me was that they, and all agreed, that at that distance, they aim for the perps ambulatory computer...not center mass.

Guess things have changed.

Interestingly enough, the FBI has gone back to the 9 too...officially. Need permission for a 10 or 40.

SO...set up a fifty five gallon steel barrel at twenty-five YARDS. A 9 with HP's did not penetrate, neither did the .40 or 10. The 45ACP went through initial side...the .357 and .44's went right through both.

Pass through does not necessarily mean that it is best. Neither does no penetration...guess that whoever devised the .45ACP had an pretty good idea.

The 9 went through one side at 15 feet though. The .44 went through both sides at 50 yards too!

The girl had trouble with the .45ACP on quick succession shots and never seemed comfortable enough with the "Dirty Harry" revolver.

[Old Ironsights]

There has always been the debate as to whether 100% Kehetic Energy Transfer is more desireable than 80% + passthrough.

I'm with the one-hole in, no hole out, faction. I would be much more annoyed today with the outcome of my last attempt at bullet catching if the bullet had not passed through.

I like .45 ACP. I like .357, and I like .10mm as a modern compromise.

The .40 is OK, but the .357/10mm is better in every respect.

[Poohgyrr]

...in guns of the SAME format (Glocks would seem the natural choice).

I ran 9mm, 40S&W, and 357Sig through first a 3rd Gen Glock 35 for two years, then secondly a 4th Gen G31. Barrel changes, and just looking at how I did with my guns in my hands. Short story, I run 357Sig in our Glocks now. Shooting 125 gr 357Sig, vs 180 gr 40S&W, I consistently had less muzzle lift, better accuracy, with overall less/better recoil & handling. 124gr 9mm +P+ is softer shooting and fine accuracy/etc....

With careful shopping, ammo costs are the same. Ten or fifteen rounds of what is basically the old 125gr 357Magnum in a softer shooting autoloader is a pretty good thing.

Again, that's with just barrel changes in my hands in my standard frame Glocks. The G30 shoots well for me, but the 3rd Gen frame size is just enough bigger that I've stayed with the standard size frames. When the G30SF & 4th Gens came out, I already had all my gear.

Just for what it's worth.

[AJMD429]

I ran 9mm, 40S&W, and 357Sig through first a 3rd Gen Glock 35 for two years, then secondly a 4th Gen G31. Barrel changes, and just looking at how I did with my guns in my hands. Short story, I run 357Sig in our Glocks now. Shooting 125 gr 357Sig, vs 180 gr 40S&W, I consistently had less muzzle lift, better accuracy, with overall less/better recoil & handling. 124gr 9mm +P+ is softer shooting and fine accuracy/etc....

With careful shopping, ammo costs are the same. Ten or fifteen rounds of what is basically the old 125gr 357Magnum in a softer shooting autoloader is a pretty good thing.

Again, that's with just barrel changes in my hands in my standard frame Glocks. The G30 shoots well for me, but the 3rd Gen frame size is just enough bigger that I've stayed with the standard size frames. When the G30SF & 4th Gens came out, I already had all my gear.

Just for what it's worth.

Very interesting...! Thanks.

[sore shoulder]

Old time hunter, what 10mm load/bullet was used?

[mikld]

One shot at what? How many chamberings were included?

Put a comma after the "one" in tman's post...

[sore shoulder]

Interestingly enough, yesterday at a local gun show this subject came up between a consortium of different LEO's from various municipalities. They ranged from a petite young woman, could not have weighed more than a hundred and forty pounds...and that would be with her gear and a winter coat on to a mountain of a guy over six foot six inches and pushing well over three hundred pounds.

There was at least six in between.

The general consensus was a 9mm.

National studies have shown the average shooting incident in the United States when LEO's are involved, has a range of ~ 20 ft.

All agreed that the 9mm was the most consistently accurate at that range. What really surprised me was that they, and all agreed, that at that distance, they aim for the perps ambulatory computer...not center mass.

Guess things have changed.

Interestingly enough, the FBI has gone back to the 9 too...officially. Need permission for a 10 or 40.

SO...set up a fifty five gallon steel barrel at twenty-five YARDS. A 9 with HP's did not penetrate, neither did the .40 or 10. The 45ACP went through initial side...the .357 and .44's went right through both.

Pass through does not necessarily mean that it is best. Neither does no penetration...guess that whoever devised the .45ACP had an pretty good idea.

The 9 went through one side at 15 feet though. The .44 went through both sides at 50 yards too!

The girl had trouble with the .45ACP on quick succession shots and never seemed comfortable enough with the "Dirty Harry" revolver.

This is a nice comparison test, however it really is incomplete without information on the test rounds used.

In particular I would like to know what loads and bullets were used for the test, the 10mm in particular. Considering real 10mm outperforms both the .45 and .357 by a large margin, the fact the .357 and .45 penetrated and the 10mm did not makes me suspect it was not Norma spec load.

[Blaine]

In my highly scientific, patent pending, Seattle Phone Book Test, .45acp FMJ blasted thru, leaving the jacket inside to raise he!!, and the flattened lead remainder left an impressive exit hole. The JHP stayed in the book. Not every time, but usually. It's been years, and years, but I'd guess it was .60 when it stopped.....

[Old Time Hunter]

They were all LEO spec department loads, hollow point bullets. Plane jane boxes from Wisconsin Cartridge.

[sore shoulder]

They were all LEO spec department loads, hollow point bullets. Plane jane boxes from Wisconsin Cartridge.

This one?

10mm Auto 180 gr HP 1050 fps

http://www.wisconsincartridge.com/produ ... category=8

If so, that is a very under loaded 10mm. Would be like buying .357 that was loaded to .38 special specs.

[Old Savage]

Sounds like there are enough ifs, ands or buts that you can shoot whatever you want and have back up on that somewhere.

[Streetstar]

Sounds like there are enough ifs, ands or buts that you can shoot whatever you want and have back up on that somewhere.

this

[3leggedturtle]

I have 3 Ruger autos P95 in 9mm, P97 in 45 and P94 in 40. The P94 with S&B 180FP's at 980fps (according to the box) kicks less than the 9mm with any 115gr or 124gr loads. The P97 with CCI Blazer 200gr FMJ's puts out a nice fireball and kicks enough to let you know that you are shooting a 45. The 9mm can and does hit head sized rocks and dirt clods to 150-175 steps prettty easily, after getting the range down. I bought these in 9mm, 40 and 45 so I would not have to debate which one I wanted or have to spend to much time trying to decide which one to shoot. I haven't chronoe'd any of the ammo out these pistols yet.

[Blaine]

Sounds like there are enough ifs, ands or buts that you can shoot whatever you want and have back up on that somewhere.

Where's the fun in that?

[Old Savage]

Well, if all that's happening is the band is playing, no big deal. But, if the team is on the field, different deal!

[CowboyTutt]

In particular I would like to know what loads and bullets were used for the test, the 10mm in particular. Considering real 10mm outperforms both the .45 and .357 by a large margin, the fact the .357 and .45 penetrated and the 10mm did not makes me suspect it was not Norma spec load.

I'm with Frank on this one. Most "10mm" ammo is downloaded to 40 S&W velocity. Not a fair comparison at all. Throw some Double Tap 10mm ammo into the mix (ergo Norma velocities), with which the folks at Kimber have a cry baby fit about (I know, I called them and spoke to them about it and they were really upset!) and I would like to see the results.

Just sayin'!

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

I just want to add, now that my Levergun camo panties are all bunched up , that there are a handful of cartridges in the world that offer performance all out of proportion to their size. First off would be the 454 Casull from the legendary Dick Casull himself, another would be the 10mm from Colonel Cooper, and the last maybe the 50 Wyoming Express by Freedom Arms.

All of these cartridges offer superior performance in a very small package which allows for a shorter action, smaller rifle or handgun, with superior performance. I do love my 460 S&W though and highly recommend it too in either handgun or rifle because of bullet selection but it is MUCH longer a cartridge.

And before anyone answers, my best friend is working with Mic McPherson on a custom Marlin 94 chambered in 500 WE to go with his FA handgun, also in 500 WE. First of its kind as I know of.

OK, I feel better now! Haha. -Tutt

[Old Savage]

And exactly what are they for? The standards are fine.

[Old Ironsights]

What "standards"?

Sacred Cows make the best hamburger...

[CowboyTutt]

Old Savage, not trying to pick a fight here, but in the real world, we are looking for as much performance as we can get, in the smallest package, with the most number of rounds. This does require some shooting lessons as to how to shoot said handgun or rifle. But I think that this training can truly be accomplished with repetition and much practice. Regards to all,

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

So, a cannon is the answer?

Shot a living being with .45, 300 grs at say 1700 fps at close range?

[Old Time Hunter]

In particular I would like to know what loads and bullets were used for the test, the 10mm in particular. Considering real 10mm outperforms both the .45 and .357 by a large margin, the fact the .357 and .45 penetrated and the 10mm did not makes me suspect it was not Norma spec load.

I'm with Frank on this one. Most "10mm" ammo is downloaded to 40 S&W velocity. Not a fair comparison at all. Throw some Double Tap 10mm ammo into the mix (ergo Norma velocities), with which the folks at Kimber have a cry baby fit about (I know, I called them and spoke to them about it and they were really upset!) and I would like to see the results.

Just sayin'!

-Tutt

Just keep this in mind...a five foot 2 inch, 110 lb gal placed 8 rounds of the 9mm in a 4" circle at 25 feet. She only hit the drum once with the .44mag and four out of 8 with the .45. She put all 8 rounds of the 10mm within a paper plate. A hopped up 10mm would have done nothing for her accuracy.

In fact every single shooter was more accurate with the 9mm than any other single pistol. Even the big guy...then again I almost clover leafed with the .44mag...just with somebody else's holes.

[sore shoulder]

Just keep this in mind...a five foot 2 inch, 110 lb gal placed 8 rounds of the 9mm in a 4" circle at 25 feet. She only hit the drum once with the .44mag and four out of 8 with the .45. She put all 8 rounds of the 10mm within a paper plate. A hopped up 10mm would have done nothing for her accuracy.

In fact every single shooter was more accurate with the 9mm than any other single pistol. Even the big guy...then again I almost clover leafed with the .44mag...just with somebody else's holes.

Good information for sure. My wife and daughters confidence and groups improved dramatically going from a 1911 to a Glock 17.

BTW, the recoil between real 10mm and FBI level loads is fairly negligible in a Glock 20, that girl is a shooter for sure. Handling magnum revolvers is a completely different technique and she was probably flinching after the first one or two.

[crs]

Here is a link to an interesting study on the subject:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Look it over and decide for yourself.

[piller]

Something to think about. Whatever you choose to carry, you need to practice with it. I would rather not get hit by any bullet, and if the person doing the shooting is accurate, well then, the rest of it can be studied later. If you miss, it doesn't matter what caliber and/or pistol you were shooting. No real world experience with stopping humans other than the training in the Army, but I have done some hunting, and I have missed an animal before. I have also hit one in a spot that wouldn't down it for hours and had to have help finding it. My experiences have led me to believe that accuracy and the ability to place second, or third shots in the area you are aiming for is what works for me.

By the way, I prefer my Glock model 22 to PillHer's Springfield XD 9mm. I feel that I can hit more accurately with the .40 cal Glock, but she feels that she is better with the Springfield 9mm. For her, she is right to use the 9mm Springfield. If you can use it well, then it is better than something larger that you cannot use.

[Old Savage]

Ergonomics vary enough that personal choice will always differ.

[Griff]

Here is a link to an interesting study on the subject:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Look it over and decide for yourself.

While I now only carry a .45ACP, for a large number of years I carried a .38Spl... by order... and never felt undergunned with it... This statement sez it ALL:

No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!

Truer words were never spoken. The cartridge and "platform" you carry it in are a personal thing... relevant to you and your training/expertise... not what anyone else carries!

[firefuzz]

SO...set up a fifty five gallon steel barrel at twenty-five YARDS. A 9 with HP's did not penetrate, neither did the .40 or 10. The 45ACP went through initial side...the .357 and .44's went right through both.

All I can say about this test is.....pretty good steel drums.


Rob

[tman]

I gotta go with a Glock 27. The 40 is an outstanding defensive load. Before I get flamed, the 10 is more powerful . I shoot it well, I conceal it well. I can shoot it fast and accurately. If I was bear hunting ,I'd go with a 10MM.

[Old Ironsights]

I used to carry a 27 daily... with 180's

But I mostly shot 9mm for practice out of a swapped barrel... that was for a 23... and threaded... just in case...

Still, I'm a bigger fan of the 10mm (1cm Powergun) than the Kurtz version.

People love the 9mm, but dis the 9mmKurtz/.380. But when it comes to 1cm cartridges...

But then, it .357 1911s weren't $1500+ none of this would be an issue...