Shipping a firearm (pistol)

[Bullard4075]

I did a search and did not find a complete answer.
I am shipping a pistol to another on this forum.
Realizing the rules are stricter for pistols I request
opinions (within the law!) of what has worked for you.

From the UPS site:
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resour ... earms.html
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.

From the USPS site:

432.2 Handguns
http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:

Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in Exhibit 432.25 and in 432.21 through 432.24.
Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include adult signature service under DMM 503.9.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.

From the FEDEX site:
http://www.fedex.com/us/freight/rulesta ... icles.html
Firearms

Carrier will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
Carrier cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D.
Upon presenting the goods for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to Carrier is required to notify Carrier that the shipment contains a firearm. The outside of the package(s) must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package(s) contains a firearm.
The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
Carrier will transport small-arms ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Hazardous Materials section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as hazardous materials. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.

So there is the regs now what is your experiences as the preferred.
And remember please we are talking pistol here.

Thanks
Bullard

[Malamute]

You havent said much about the circumstances. Is it from FFL to FFL? If so, US Mail is the least expensive. If its from you as an individual to an FFL, it probably has to go common carrier, like UPS or FED Ex. I dont believe its legal to ship a handgun individual to individual for any reason. An FFL has to be involved on one end (and Post Office I think there has to be an FFL on both ends). Once sent to an FFL or factory, the gun can be returned directly to you by common carrier as the original owner.

[vancelw]

When I have shipped handguns, I have found that it is much cheaper for me to have my FFL ship it than for me to ship it.
Last time I tried to follow the rules and ship via FedEx to an FFL, they wanted $163.00
My FFL shipped it for me via USPS and only charged me $50.

I have another FFL that only charges me actual shipping costs via USPS. I keep telling him he needs to charge more and it would still be worth it to me.

[Sixgun]

This is how it works......for handguns and even antique handguns if the ammo is readily available. I will not deal with communist states like Ca, NJ, MD, MA, CT, whatever.

As I have a lot to lose, I ship handguns only through my local FFL dealer who registers them in his books and ships them overnight to another certified FFL. And on top of that, I never sell more than 3 or 4 handguns a year, most of the time, less than that. (I'm a hoarder)

No...no with the USPS service. All handguns must go to an FFL VIA overnight FED EX or UPS.

Remember, the ATF is always looking for white guys with jobs who make mistakes. Don't let them make an example out of you.-------6

[Bullard4075]

You havent said much about the circumstances. Is it from FFL to FFL? If so, US Mail is the least expensive. If its from you as an individual to an FFL, it probably has to go common carrier, like UPS or FED Ex. I dont believe its legal to ship a handgun individual to individual for any reason. An FFL has to be involved on one end (and Post Office I think there has to be an FFL on both ends). Once sent to an FFL or factory, the gun can be returned directly to you by common carrier as the original owner.

I as a private individual (non FFL) want to ship a pistol from Montana to a FFL in another state (Pa).
At least two local stores Cabela's and Scheels state a reluctance because I didn't buy it there (the former)
and the latter questions if it's modified. The former pi**es me off and the latter seems reluctant in
general even at a $60 charge.

[92&94]

When I have shipped handguns, I have found that it is much cheaper for me to have my FFL ship it than for me to ship it.
Last time I tried to follow the rules and ship via FedEx to an FFL, they wanted $163.00
My FFL shipped it for me via USPS and only charged me $50.

I have another FFL that only charges me actual shipping costs via USPS. I keep telling him he needs to charge more and it would still be worth it to me.

Same here. Several years ago I used an FFL in Almogordo who didn't charge me for outgoing transfers. Couple times I sold pistols I'd inherited, cost was under $15 with insurance. FFL's can (or at least they could in 2010) ship USPS. Man I miss that guy!

I've read that there is no actual reg against an FFL receiving a handgun from an individual, but I've yet to meet any FFL holders who will do it. It's just easiest to go with an FFL to FFL transfer, priority mail + insurance.

IIRC, the UPS and Fedex overnight for unlicensed individuals was company policy, not an ATF reg. USPS policy forbid non-FFL holders from shipping USPS, not ATF regs. That may well have changed however, as these things do.

[Bullard4075]

I hadn't seen Sixguns post when I posted the second time. Thanks to
all who have responded.

[92&94]

I dont believe its legal to ship a handgun individual to individual for any reason.

You can do so when the transfer is not interstate, if your state does not require any kind of checks for private party handgun transfers. Since you can't ship it USPS, it hardly pays to do it that way anyhow, in the rare event that you are transferring to another individual in your home state.

[vancelw]

No...no with the USPS service. All handguns must go to an FFL VIA overnight FED EX or UPS.

Remember, the ATF is always looking for white guys with jobs who make mistakes. Don't let them make an example out of you.-------6

Not true. FFL can ship to FFL through USPS.

432.23 Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms, licensed dealers of firearms, and licensed importers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

If my FFL ships it for me, it's up to him to comply with the law, and he does. If I ship it, I have to use FedEx or UPS and it is cost prohibitive.

A lot of FFLs around here will accept transfers from individual, because they have actually read the regs. The ones who won't either haven't read the rules, can't understand them, or don't want to help because they are mad you didn't buy from them.

Heck, half the time, when I'm bored with a gun, I give my LGS first dibs since he saved me money by transferring for me.

[Pete44ru]

.

There are two ways a firearm may be sent interstate: Mailed (USPS) or SHIPPED by a common carrier (UPS, FEDEX, etc)

Then there's what's Law, and also there's one's druthers.

Under Federal Law & USPS Regs (which carry the force of law):

1) Only an FFL-holder may receive a firearm shipment from a different state than the state of residence of the FFL (aka: Interstate).

2) Per USPS Regs, only an FFL-holder may MAIL (as opposed to "ship") a handgun only to another FFL holder in another state.
(USPS can/will mail a long gun, but not a handgun, for a non-FFL holder)

3) A non-FFL holder may SHIP any firearm intERstate (different state) to an FFL-holder in another state.

4) IntRAstate (same state) firearm transfers can be done w/o an FFL holder's involvement, whether FTF or via shipment.



Druthers:

* It is fully legal for ANY FFL holder to refuse to accept a shipped/mailed firearm from a non-FFL holder. (some do; some don't)

* It is fully legal, if not very customer friendly, for a common carrier (UPS, FEDEX, etc) to charge whatever they want, for any reason they deem pertains to them, to ship a firearm (currently only applied to handguns).


Responsibility:

* It is encumbent on any shipper, mailer, or receiver of a firearm to observe BOTH Federal Law and any local/municipal or other laws of THIER respective states.



FWIW, for transferring handguns OUT, I pack the handgun in a USPS Flat Rate Box ($7 - $15 to mail anywhere in the US), and have a local/friendly FFL mail it out (usually less the $20 + the USPS Flat Rate fee) to the receiving FFL.

A parcel's firearm content is what it is - modified or not, no shipper/mailer is responsible for the firearm's usability/dependability/etc - IOW, a BS excuse to refuse to accept & ship the handgun.


.

[Sixgun]

Vance,
Yea, your right. Dealers can ship handguns through USPS. As I'm not a dealer, that thought did not enter my little mind.

I tell ya, I'm so dang paranoid about the ATF, especially with the current administration, that I take no chances with handguns. I go right down to Targetmaster and have them handle it. The way I see it, a few extra bucks can save me untold amount of aggravation if I make a simple mistake.

It's really getting bad with the laws and all, and beings I'm no lawyer or even someone with the intelligence of a lawyer, I take no chances.

My guns are my retirement and by the grace of God, I plan on getting out of that pelosi hole I work for.......very determined. ------6

[vancelw]

Vance,
Yea, your right. Dealers can ship handguns through USPS. As I'm not a dealer, that thought did not enter my little mind.

I tell ya, I'm so dang paranoid about the ATF, especially with the current administration, that I take no chances with handguns. I go right down to Targetmaster and have them handle it. The way I see it, a few extra bucks can save me untold amount of aggravation if I make a simple mistake.

It's really getting bad with the laws and all, and beings I'm no lawyer or even someone with the intelligence of a lawyer, I take no chances.

My guns are my retirement and by the grace of God, I plan on getting out of that pelosi hole I work for.......very determined. ------6

MY LGS likes to see what comes and goes from my accumulation anyway I buy interesting guns! (lots of them have levers)

They would sure like to make shipping and transferring so complicated as to confuse us all into quitting. I have had people ship handguns to my FFL on their own and get away with it, but if I made a silly mistake I'm sure I'd get buried under the jail

[Sixgun]

I hear ya Vance!

Think about this......for the extra price of about 3 or 4 cans of Skoal, we can sleep a little better.----6

Skoal brother....just a pinch between your cheek and gum!-------6

[92&94]

I tell ya, I'm so dang paranoid about the ATF, especially with the current administration, that I take no chances with handguns. I go right down to Targetmaster and have them handle it. The way I see it, a few extra bucks can save me untold amount of aggravation if I make a simple mistake.

Definitely.

All of my transfers the last few years have been incoming, so that is somewhat easier.

My local FFL would accept long guns from an individual with a photocopy of a current drivers license. Did two transfers from private parties last year, and both had trouble with that - one was just a busy guy, I get that, but the other started copping an attitude about how he didn't have to send it. Took a call from the FFL to straighten that one out.

From now on I won't even buy long guns from non-FFL shippers - no reason for me to put my local guy to that kind of trouble all over again - I like the guys at my LGS.

[AJMD429]

At least two local stores Cabela's and Scheels state a reluctance because I didn't buy it there (the former) and the latter questions if it's modified.

Well I would add BOTH of those to places I'd not do business with, and let them know why...

[Streetstar]

I have shipped through UPS to an FFL a few times ---- I put the gun in a little cheap plano case for 6 bucks for protection, -- then inside another box with more padding -- and i ship it straight from a UPS hub, - not a box store or something

---- no issues - usually put enough insurance on it to cover the gun plus some aggravation if anything goes south ---- but it doesnt matter how much insurance you put on it - if anything happens , they are just going to go off blue book value to pay out -- which is far from accurate

[Bullard4075]

This may all get resolved Monday. I'll try to post the results of where the pieces fall. Our Cabelas is turning
into a real sh*t hole , the only reason I go at all is to visit friends (I worked there 3 years) still there.

[firefuzz]

I've read that there is no actual reg against an FFL receiving a handgun from an individual, but I've yet to meet any FFL holders who will do it. It's just easiest to go with an FFL to FFL transfer, priority mail + insurance.

This is pretty much the case.

A lot of FFLs around here will accept transfers from individual, because they have actually read the regs. The ones who won't either haven't read the rules, can't understand them, or don't want to help because they are mad you didn't buy from them.[/quote

That's not necessarily the case. I do a lot of internet, Gunbroker, transactions and have a dealer friend who is more than willing to do my transfers both ways for nothing. His problem is positive ID of the seller IF it's not another FFL dealer. If the seller isn't will or able to email him a legible photo of his state ID he requires it come from another FFL holder, that way someone has SEEN the seller's ID. He got caught up in a transaction with a stolen gun several years ago and is a little leery. My local UPS station, even after a visit from a friendly BATF agent, refuses to accept firearms of any type from a non-FFL holder so I have to use the USPS for everything.


Rob

[vancelw]

I've read that there is no actual reg against an FFL receiving a handgun from an individual, but I've yet to meet any FFL holders who will do it. It's just easiest to go with an FFL to FFL transfer, priority mail + insurance.

This is pretty much the case.

A lot of FFLs around here will accept transfers from individual, because they have actually read the regs. The ones who won't either haven't read the rules, can't understand them, or don't want to help because they are mad you didn't buy from them.

That's not necessarily the case. I do a lot of internet, Gunbroker, transactions and have a dealer friend who is more than willing to do my transfers both ways for nothing. His problem is positive ID of the seller IF it's not another FFL dealer. If the seller isn't will or able to email him a legible photo of his state ID he requires it come from another FFL holder, that way someone has SEEN the seller's ID. He got caught up in a transaction with a stolen gun several years ago and is a little leery. My local UPS station, even after a visit from a friendly BATF agent, refuses to accept firearms of any type from a non-FFL holder so I have to use the USPS for everything.


Rob

That's apple and oranges, Rob. They have to be willing to do transfers from individuals before they ever get to the point of dealing with morons. I think what you mean is, some are NO LONGER willing to do transfers from individuals

There have been a couple of time where a more persnickety dealer might have told me, "No more," due to individuals making us track down info. Now, I tell people shipping me firearms through my FFL to make sure they include a copy of their DL. Most time, I require a copy myself before sending them payment. After all, I am trusting them with the money and the (yet to be seen) gun, so if they balk at something so simple as verifying who they really are....It's a sign for me to walk away.

[92&94]

Most time, I require a copy myself before sending them payment. After all, I am trusting them with the money and the (yet to be seen) gun, so if they balk at something so simple as verifying who they really are....It's a sign for me to walk away.

That's not a bad idea, I like it.

[vancelw]

Most time, I require a copy myself before sending them payment. After all, I am trusting them with the money and the (yet to be seen) gun, so if they balk at something so simple as verifying who they really are....It's a sign for me to walk away.

That's not a bad idea, I like it.

Quite a few will be reluctant. I explain to them the trust they are asking of me and they usually understand. Those that don't.....well, I hate missing out on a gun I really want, but when your BS radar is going off it's time to listen.

[92&94]

Most time, I require a copy myself before sending them payment. After all, I am trusting them with the money and the (yet to be seen) gun, so if they balk at something so simple as verifying who they really are....It's a sign for me to walk away.

That's not a bad idea, I like it.

Quite a few will be reluctant. I explain to them the trust they are asking of me and they usually understand. Those that don't.....well, I hate missing out on a gun I really want, but when your BS radar is going off it's time to listen.

That guy my FFL had to talk to would have balked at it too, the other guy would have been fine with it I bet. I'm fine with have a BS heads up on PITA sellers.

The other alternative I have is to only buy from FFL shippers - since the whole point is to not cause undo aggravation to my FFL doing the transfer for me.

[Bullard4075]

My pistol shipped today. Scheels stepped up and did a good job. They explained to me why they refused to ship
modified arms,not that I agree, but it's their company rules and I respect that.The gradual pacification of us through
silly rules is I think what bothers me the most.

[Pete44ru]

it's their company rules and I respect that.

The gradual pacification of us through silly rules is I think what bothers me the most.

Yep - creeping Nazi-ism.

Another example:

My state has a one week waiting period after the purchase for the delivery of a firearm, but written into the law is a codicil which provides that a selling FFL "may" deliver the firearm if the background check paperwork is not returned to the FFL by the end of the waiting period.

One very well-stocked @ reasonable prices LGS has policy that NO firearm will be delivered until the clearance paperwork is returned, since the law stated "may deliver" and not "must deliver".

After not getting my firearm after waiting over two weeks (4 years ago), I refuse to even enter that LGS, much less buy as much as a bottle of gun cleaner.

The LGS owner made his choice, and so did I (I used to do serious business there, for over 30 years)



.

[41 Redhawk]

I am the other side of the deal with Bullard4075 who, I may add, has been excellent to deal with. The firearm that was shipped is at my FFL now although due to vacation and work schedules I will not be able to pick it up until Saturday.

Pete44ru laid the legal requirements out quite nicely. As he pointed out some FFLs as well as FedEX and UPS add additional requirements.