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I forgot to lock the chicken gate after I plowed the snow away so we could open it. . .
The dogs don't understand the problem with killing the goose/chicken that lays the golden/edible eggs. . .
Chicken Carnage.jpg
Eighteen chickens gone, one survivor.
After three cycles of feeding/petting then beating-with-dead-chickens, I think the dogs will leave them alone from now on, but realize we humans aren't mad at them. Last time this was an issue, we only had one dog, and a few days after her education, she was heard whimpering so we went out to investigate. . . she was in her dog house cowering because a chicken had gotten loose and was walking back and forth in front of her dog house. . .
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Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
My dad tells a story from his childhood where the neighbor's dog would raid the coop. Mostly eating the eggs and general destruction. After this happen one too many times, the neighbor boiled up an egg and force fed the still hot egg to the dog. Never had a problem after that.
Siegfried chewed up a 175 buck CPAP mask the other night.....*sigh* What you do is roll up a newspaper, smack the heck out of yourself yelling: I forgot to watch the Dog
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First
Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
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Doc,
My cousin had a border collie when we were kids. He developed the the taste for fresh poultry. Every couple of weeks he would get off and do the rounds. My uncle bought a lot of chickens over the years. he never found a way to break that dog of killing chickens. My thought was to give the neighbors a few geese, they can give a dog a good run.
Many years ago I knew an ole man not far down the road from us. We had a dog that killed a neighbors chicken. The ole man gave us a stop forever treatment for the dog. You take the dead chicken, tie it around the said dogs neck, tie it up close. you just leave it there till it rots off. The dog wore it for quite awhile. he never went near another chicken.
My dad always told me that to stop a dog from killin' chickens.....you take one of the chickens that it killed and grab it by the feet, then you beat the dog about the head, neck and shoulders until all you had left in your hands was a pair of chicken feet. I always tried to keep my dogs away from the chickens.
Right after I was first married my wife had some chickens, at that time I had a 9 month old Short hair pup, anyways to make a long story short the pup buried five of the chickens alive , he didn't kill any of them I trailed the feathers and found five chicken's buried in a row with just their heads sticking out.
----J
Keep The Peace, Love and Harmony, These are the Gold Nuggets, All Else Is Sand !!
BlaineG wrote:Siegfried chewed up a 175 buck CPAP mask the other night.....*sigh* What you do is roll up a newspaper, smack the heck out of yourself yelling: I forgot to watch the Dog
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776 11B30
The dogs are only doing what is natural for them, and like Doc says, "we humans are not mad at them".
Anyone who tries to "beat sense" into a dog, an animal with no reasoning powers, is well, a bit below the intelligence of a carrot.
I've had chickens, dogs, horses, cats, ducks, toads, whatever, all at the same time and when something went wrong, I looked at the decisions I had made.-----6
So sorry Doc. Yesterday was not a good day for chickens it seems. My dog a bluetick coon hound is not trusted at all around the chickens, he hasn't killed any, but he likes to chase them. I don't know if he would kill them, but he is too big to "play" with them. We lock the chickens up when we let him out to play. We have an wireless fence for the dog.
When I was in High School my next door neighbors Squirrel dog would not stop barking at night. He took a switch and beat the dog for a time. The dog learned to never bark again, not even when he had a Squirrel treed. Dog was a quick learner.
Maybe sort of off topic of Chickens, but maybe relevant to the discussion?
I love dogs much more than chickens, so I wouldn't be about to put one down for doing what comes natural. It's a sorry thing to see, though.
My late father-in-law's mother was one of the first in Grants Pass, Oregon, to start what became the local humane society, and she always had a pack of dogs. She also kept chickens around the estate. To educate the dogs, she would gather the pack, set a banty down in the middle of them and then start in with a stick if any dog made so much as a twitch. Apparently it worked pretty well. She was born and raised on a ranch in Winnemucca, and knew her critters.
Thanks for telling me that story, Jim, God rest your soul.
hayabusa wrote:When I was in High School my next door neighbors Squirrel dog would not stop barking at night. He took a switch and beat the dog for a time. The dog learned to never bark again, not even when he had a Squirrel treed. Dog was a quick learner.
A blank firing starter-pistol fired from the balcony just over their heads every time they bark, accompanied by a stern "No...!" works well too.
The challenge is just like kids - you have to make them understand there are RULES, and that if they disobey them there are consequences. You also have to make them realize that you aren't just out to randomly beat them, and give them extra love in between educational sessions. Dogs also respond (like children) fairly well to stern voice and other body language, so you don't have to do too much physical stuff once you've taught the initial lesson.
Our dogs happily greeted me this morning, and I put food in their bowls. Then I picked up a dead-chicken-sickle I'd saved in the snow for just that purpose, and entered their pen with it held out in front of me, and they all backed away from their food bowls... That tells me they know to fear not me, but the CHICKEN...!
-------
I thought it would be fun to rent a large chicken costume, and hide in the chicken-yard with it and a bunch of firecrackers and other obnoxious and potentially dog-frightening things. Then let them come out there and jump out like the Vengeful Chicken God and run them back to their pen and scare the stuff out of them. My wife and daughter want them to have bad dreams about Killer Zombie Chickens...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
UncleBuck wrote:BlaineG,
Try buying your dog a rawhide chew bone. One that says made in the USA not red china.
He has mucho bones, and toys....Strangely, he hasn't chewed up much of anything except the mask
He could have had at the 10$ sneakers from Goodwill, but Noooo
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First
Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
Hitting dogs to correct them is the lazy way out, same as with children. I've trained dogs for personal protection, advanced obedience, tracking, police K9, done a lot of work with police K9's that had issues, etc etc. I've never had to even administer a sharp jerk on the leash for these highly advanced dogs. I can take another persons dog and have it doing whatever I want within minutes. I can hand that dog back to the owner and it will go right back to it's poor behavior. That's because the humans are harder to train than the animals. I did some one on one training for awhile. The very first requirement I had with the owners is that they forget everything they think they know about training dogs and never mention it, and that the very first time they tried to tell me how they thought the training should go, my rates would go up 10%, and the second time I would cancel the contract. I've caught people hitting their dogs in the past. It doesn't go well. The dumbest thing I see on a regular basis is people calling and calling their dog, and when it finally returns, yelling at it or hitting it. Yea, that taught the dog something. Taught it not to come when they call it. And the stupid look on the humans face when you try to explain it tells you the story.
The reason people have a hard time teaching a dog not to go after chickens without resorting to violence, is they have not properly trained the dog to start with. Most peoples idea of owning a dog is give it food and let it outside to go to the bathroom and yelling no when it does something wrong. Then they are surprised and angered when it exhibits bad behavior.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776 11B30
Right after I was first married my wife had some chickens, at that time I had a 9 month old Short hair pup, anyways to make a long story short the pup buried five of the chickens alive , he didn't kill any of them I trailed the feathers and found five chicken's buried in a row with just their heads sticking out.
SteveR wrote:So sorry Doc. Yesterday was not a good day for chickens it seems. My dog a bluetick coon hound is not trusted at all around the chickens, he hasn't killed any, but he likes to chase them. I don't know if he would kill them, but he is too big to "play" with them. We lock the chickens up when we let him out to play. We have an wireless fence for the dog.
Sorry again,
Steve
Now here is a guy who knows responsibility.
It's a shame as here in the East, people are all over the news who leave their animals in a cardboard box, 10 degree weather, with nothing more than a frozen bowl of water to live on.
sore shoulder wrote: I can take another persons dog and have it doing whatever I want within minutes. I can hand that dog back to the owner and it will go right back to it's poor behavior. That's because the humans are harder to train than the animals.
The very first requirement I had with the owners is that they forget everything they think they know about training dogs and never mention it,
The dumbest thing I see on a regular basis is people calling and calling their dog, and when it finally returns, yelling at it or hitting it. Yea, that taught the dog something. Taught it not to come when they call it. And the stupid look on the humans face when you try to explain it tells you the story.
Yeah, a certain dog we know is still being "trained" in the least possible effective way. The human is untrainable, they think they know how to train a dog. No amount of discussion can convince them they arent doing it right.
Funny how it was fine with us after a day or two, then it went back to being psycho when the owner got back.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
When you see the way some people treat their dogs it's no wonder their kids turn out the way they do.
On the bright side Doc, the spring chicks will be at the feed stores any day now. I had the best time with my Americana (sp?) chickens when I was raising them. They were the wife's idea. They laid green eggs. It was always fun to mix 2 or 3 of them in with the brown eggs I was giving to someone.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
I did once train a dog to not kill the chickens, took him in the chicken area on a leash and smacked his butt with a flat bit of wood - not so heavy that it does anything but sting - every time he even perked his ears up looking at a bird. Did that for about 20 minutes, it got to the point where he wouldn't even look at them, knowing it was going to hurt.
I didn't really think it would work, but a couple months later the gate got left open and I came down to the yard to find him in there, drinking out of the water bucket and ignoring all the chickens.
Of course, this was just one dog - two or three are harder to control. And he was a very smart dog.
sore shoulder wrote: I can take another persons dog and have it doing whatever I want within minutes. I can hand that dog back to the owner and it will go right back to it's poor behavior. That's because the humans are harder to train than the animals.
The very first requirement I had with the owners is that they forget everything they think they know about training dogs and never mention it,
The dumbest thing I see on a regular basis is people calling and calling their dog, and when it finally returns, yelling at it or hitting it. Yea, that taught the dog something. Taught it not to come when they call it. And the stupid look on the humans face when you try to explain it tells you the story.
Yeah, a certain dog we know is still being "trained" in the least possible effective way. The human is untrainable, they think they know how to train a dog. No amount of discussion can convince them they arent doing it right.
Funny how it was fine with us after a day or two, then it went back to being psycho when the owner got back.
Oh man, I don't think I've ever felt sorrier for a dog. Putting that dog down would be a mercy killing.
Yea it was interesting how that dogs wacky behavior disappeared when the owner did.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776 11B30
You know, what some people do to their dogs appalls me. I work with abused children as a school psychologist 5 days a week and while that doesn't make me an expert on dogs, I can tell you that children and animals act the same to Skinner's Behaviorist theories.
If you abuse them with violence, they will eventually do the same to you because you "roll modeled" the behavior to them. This is why the cycle of child abuse keeps going on, and on, and on. Because we are teaching them this is what they should expect in a relationship.
Everything that matters in education is based upon the "rapport" between the teacher and the student. Lose that, and you lose everything. The same applies to your pet dog or animal of your choice.
Some people here seem to ascribe to what I could only call a "North Korea School of Obedience" school with their pets based upon their punitive methods as posted. It doesn't work that way.
All the most recent research points out that positive reinforcement at a ratio of 4 or 5 positive comments to one negative one is what works with kids.
It works for animals too.
Doc and his dogs, Frank and the dogs he trains, I think they get it. If the animal doesn't trust you to begin with based upon your previous rapport or lack of it, it will not listen to you. Quite honestly I do not think this is rocket science but then I read about how people are supposedly "training" their dogs and I have to wonder.
-Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
I have friends and patients who have worked with and trained everything from seeing-eye dogs, service-dogs for clinics that treat sexually abused children, ordinary pets that play 'fetch', to guard dogs for high-security installations, and they have things they all vehemently agree about, and vehemently disagree about.
No two of them seem to have the same stance on 'physical' punishment vs. verbal, for instance.
All of them approach their training from the standpoint that the dog needs to respect the owner, NOT fear him, and that the dog needs to understand the rules, so keep them pertinent to things dogs can understand, and that consequences need to be immediate and scaled appropriately to the offense. Additionally, you should never administer discipline while actually angry, although acting angry to some extent may facilitate things.
Not that much different than children, and really the only difference with adults is that they are more able to understand abstract rules (try teaching a dog that after 8:00 they can't chew on their favorite chew-toy, and it will seem far easier to get your 12-year-old to put down the computer game at 8:00...!).
I model my teaching after just what I see when the dogs engage in their own pack behavior; yes, it IS 'physical punishment', but it is administered immediately after the infraction, typically the one being disciplined exhibits behavior indicating "Ok, I understand, I promise I won't do that anymore," then the discipline is relaxed, perhaps with a less severe reminder a few seconds later ("You will remember this lesson, won't you...?"). If the offense is repeated, the punishment is a bit more severe, but immediately afterwards, and in-between the punishments, there is warm and accepting behavior. You don't see permanent shunning, much less permanent 'attack', from one member of the pack to another; they work it out, accept the rules or pecking order, and move on - no hard feelings.
Just because the method of discipline may involve 'physical' punishment does not make it 'abuse', and even animals can quickly perceive the difference. On the other hand, I know people who would never strike their pet, but don't give it proper living conditions, clean water, decent food, or proper medical care. That IS abuse.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
shane-vs-wilson wrote:Many years ago I knew an ole man not far down the road from us. We had a dog that killed a neighbors chicken. The ole man gave us a stop forever treatment for the dog. You take the dead chicken, tie it around the said dogs neck, tie it up close. you just leave it there till it rots off. The dog wore it for quite awhile. he never went near another chicken.
This is what my Grandma did, because her Grandma did, because her Grandma did. It works, kinda hard to be around the dog after about day 3 tho.
Rob
Proud to be Christian American and not ashamed of being white.
May your rifle always shoot straight, your mag never run dry, you always have one more round than you have adversaries, and your good mate always be there to watch your back.
Because I can!
Never grow a wishbone where a backbone ought to be.
shane-vs-wilson wrote:Many years ago I knew an ole man not far down the road from us. We had a dog that killed a neighbors chicken. The ole man gave us a stop forever treatment for the dog. You take the dead chicken, tie it around the said dogs neck, tie it up close. you just leave it there till it rots off. The dog wore it for quite awhile. he never went near another chicken.
This is what my Grandma did, because her Grandma did, because her Grandma did. It works, kinda hard to be around the dog after about day 3 tho.
I thought about that, but our three dogs are out together and share the same mini barn for a dog house. I'd worry that eventually one might try to eat the chicken fastened to the other and that could go south in a hurry.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
shane-vs-wilson wrote:Many years ago I knew an ole man not far down the road from us. We had a dog that killed a neighbors chicken. The ole man gave us a stop forever treatment for the dog. You take the dead chicken, tie it around the said dogs neck, tie it up close. you just leave it there till it rots off. The dog wore it for quite awhile. he never went near another chicken.
This is what my Grandma did, because her Grandma did, because her Grandma did. It works, kinda hard to be around the dog after about day 3 tho.
I thought about that, but our three dogs are out together and share the same mini barn for a dog house. I'd worry that eventually one might try to eat the chicken fastened to the other and that could go south in a hurry.
Sure. But then it would be funny.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776 11B30
All of them approach their training from the standpoint that the dog needs to respect the owner, NOT fear him, and that the dog needs to understand the rules, so keep them pertinent to things dogs can understand, and that consequences need to be immediate and scaled appropriately to the offense.
Doc, as I said previously in this thread, you pretty much nailed it the first time and that I thought you and Frank "got it" and I was not disagreeing with you.
It's been scientifically proven that corporal punishment, used very modestly, causes no permanent damage to human children. It's the same for animals except since they have no higher understanding (thus the emphasis on the "dog's can understand post above") the punishment has to come immediately after the infraction. Natural consequences. That certainly makes sense to me and I think all of us.
But beating a dog with a dead chicken until there is nothing left of the corpse except it's legs, or tying a dead chicken around it's neck until it decays and fall's off.
Really guys? Might be old fashioned. Might even be traditional. Doubt you could find a professional dog trainer anywhere in the entire United States who advocated for such an approach.
I agree with Frank. Training the humans in this case is more important than training the dogs.
Regards,
-Tutt
Last edited by CowboyTutt on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
I've got five in my family and a few years ago bought eight red chicks figuring in one or two extra allowing for the the loss of a few to varmints or dogs. a coon got one (I got that coon) my #1 guard dog got one after they started laying good, so I called the dog over to what was left and gave him my best "disappointed" voice, "NO BAD DOG" and that was the end of it. Some years later I got tired of em crappin on the back porch, and gave em to a friend, except for the one all the others picked on. That last red hen and the #1 dog are good pals now, she roosts close to him at nite for protection from varmints for the last three years or so.
