Who can regulate the sights on a single action revolver?

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:06 pm

I have a single action revolver that shoots to the left of POA.
Where should I send it to get it regulated?
I can handle the vertical adjustment but I don't think I can
handle the windage.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:54 pm

A half decent gunsmith (not parts changer grade "gunsmith") should be able to. Turning the barrel in or out slightly as required is the simplest unless you want to bend the front sight. If you were there as it was done and could shoot it it would help.

Can you tell if the barrel isnt indexed perfectly square with the frame? If its shooting left, it probably needs to be screwd IN slightly.

Barrels not perfectly indexed arent that uncommon, unfortunately.

Sending it anywhere gets a bit expensive rather quickly.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:00 pm

Not to be a smartButt, but there are several questions that your question asks

Are you going to shoot that one same load forever and ever? How far are you off? Have you tried another load to see if it's better? Are you sure you use the exact same hold each and every time? It could be as simple as pulling the trigger with the end of your finger versus moving your trigger finger up to the first joint.
Personally, (and I've tried manipulating fixed sights) if it's not too far off, I adjust my POA. My little S&W shoots to POA with Winchester Wildcat, but is high and right with Federal Bulk Pac.......Sorry, I just wanted to relay a few thoughts. There really is no easy answer without some more info from you. Someone with WAY more experience than I should be along shortly after you answer those questions....

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:09 pm

The barrel can be clocked to regulate for windage. I assume this is a fixed sight gun. Any of the better pistol smiths can take care of that. The trouble is,most of them are many months behind,buried in custom work.
You did not say what brand of gun it is. If it is one of the majors like Ruger,Colt , I would let the factory repair/ adjust it. I have sent two to Ruger for similar problems an had them back within two weeks.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:36 am

^ ^ ^ Excellent suggestion. Was thinking of it earlier.

If you do send it back, I'd tell them exactly what range, how much off, where you hold as aiming point, what the load is, weight/vel/whatever. Sending a target along with the info written on it may not be a bad idea.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:19 am

It is doable, but am not sure who you could take it to. Back in '01 I was shooting my new to me Ruger Vaquero with John Taffin up in Boise. It was hitting to the left, consistently. I took the target and the gun to the 'smith at Shapel's gun store and they tweeked it in no time. It's been shooting well every since - when I do my part. I really don't recall the name of the smith there at that time, but am well satisfied with the work he did for me. With as many Cowboy Action shooters as there are around the country, you shouldn't have too much trouble finding someone in your area who could do the adjustment for you.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:08 am

Make yourself some oak blocks with a hole drilled on the centerline between the blocks. Dust with powdered resin and clamp the barrel in a strong vise with the blocks. Use an oak 2x2 sized to fit the frame window and just move the sight slightly to the left as in tighten the barrel. If you send it to someone be sure to include some of the ammo you plan to use in it. It's really pretty easy. Just don't tweak the frame by putting your handle at the back of the window.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:14 am

M. M. Wright wrote:Make yourself some oak blocks with a hole drilled on the centerline between the blocks. Dust with powdered resin and clamp the barrel in a strong vise with the blocks. Use an oak 2x2 sized to fit the frame window and just move the sight slightly to the left as in tighten the barrel. If you send it to someone be sure to include some of the ammo you plan to use in it. It's really pretty easy. Just don't tweak the frame by putting your handle at the back of the window.

I did a shotgun about like that.

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:18 am

Well now, that, I think I can do. Thanks

M. M. Wright wrote:Make yourself some oak blocks with a hole drilled on the centerline between the blocks. Dust with powdered resin and clamp the barrel in a strong vise with the blocks. Use an oak 2x2 sized to fit the frame window and just move the sight slightly to the left as in tighten the barrel. If you send it to someone be sure to include some of the ammo you plan to use in it. It's really pretty easy. Just don't tweak the frame by putting your handle at the back of the window.

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:41 am

I guess I could of, should have included more info in the first post.

It's a 4-3/4" EMF, Hartford single action copy of the 1873 Colt SAA in 45 caliber.
It is a very nice gun with excellent specs (tolerances).

I dug out an old test target from 2013 and I believe I ought to retest this gun at the range.
As memory serves me (poorly) I seem to remember that the front sight fell out of one of the guns and it may, or may not have been this one. I seem to recall gluing (a) front sight back in with super glue at the time for convenience. It may have been this one, anyway I'll check it out.
If it was , then I'll solder it back in and re-check the sighting.

Thanks for the info guys, this will give me a project to work on until spring.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:34 am

MM gave excellent advice.

The only thing I can add is that make sure (before turning the barrel in or out) that you test it on a cloudy day. The sun shining from either side will change POI. Use sight blackener on the front sight and frame groove.

Slight changes of windage impact can be corrected by filing one side of the front sight, depending on which way you want to go. ---------6

Post by **AmBraCol** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:58 am

Sixgun beat me to it...

Check the lighting as it can cause your eyes to play tricks and move the group around the target. It's even worse on nickled or stainless guns with shiny front sights. That's why the old timers used to use a carbide lamp to black their front sights - eliminate glare and provide consistent grouping.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:27 pm

A Bic lighter will give a nice dull glare free soot coating on the sights... Do it someplace where a breeze wont blow the flame around.. The soot rubs off easy... So keep checking it hasn't been accidently rubbed off.
Shooting under shade works perfect if the weather doesn't cooperate with overcast..The whole idea with that is to eliminate side glare on the front sight... Glare on one side of the sight makes it appear narrower to the shooter...Because of that, the shooter will center the front sight in the rear sight slot causing it to shoot in away from the glare.
I cant tell you what a bummer it is to find after filing in sights the gun don't shoot to what you thought was a perfect zero. Good luck!

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:47 pm

I remember a Gun Digest article, don't remember which year. The writer recommended bending the barrel to regulate a SA. It had pics of the homemade fixture he used in a vise and gave his method of deciding how much bend.

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:26 pm

!!! Bending!!!?????? ohhua (oh heaven help us all ) no, I think I'll pass on that one.

I seem to recall gluing (a) front sight back in with super glue at the time for convenience. It may have been this one, anyway I'll check it out.

Well I did and it was this one, but it's tight. So for the time being I think I'll just leave it like it is.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:56 am

Have a Model 36 I inherited from my police partner. Neither of us could ever hit anything with it. Several smiths have tried & failed to make it shoot to poa. Took it to some famous Smith gunsmith who fired it, looked at me and asked who I had hit with it. Frame is bent; my partner was great for hitting people with his gun in fistfights.

This smith said he could make it shoot but it'd be cheaper just to buy a new gun.

cas · Post by **cas** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:20 am

The answer to the OP's question isnt really simple. Because the answer can range anywhere from "you" , to a "gunsmith" to "a really good pistol smith" to "no one". It all depends on why its off.

Ive been down the long expensive road where neither myslef, the factory or a big name custom revolver smith could fix the problem.

(though I guess the factory could have fixed it by replacing it with one that was made right i guess)

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:46 am

There are a number of ways to do it, however would you be satisfied to see the front sight cocked off to one side? Another mickey mouse way to do it is to file the hog wallow rear notch to one side, (the right side if its shooting left), now you have a real wide rear notch. If it was a $1,300 colt I would send it back to the factory or have a real top notch guru gunsmith do it. With a clone I would just live with it and compensate for it. You might have someone turn the barrel until it hits POA and then re mount the front sight with it straight up. Not long ago I talked with colt six gun guru, Jim Martin on this. I would suggest
going to the colt forum and looking him up on the forum and talking to him. I understand he used to be the gunsmith for Great Western Arms years ago.

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/

Bronco · Post by **Bronco** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:06 pm

I will add my $0.02 worth.

Before you go having some work done... why don't you go to the range and try different loads of different power levels.
I know that when going from cat sneeze loads in my red hawk to the hot ones at 25 yards there is a 9 click windage change along with elevation changes.

You might get lucky and find a load that works just right. . if not all you are out is having fun at the range firing your handgun..

While working on group size

John

Post by **AmBraCol** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:30 pm

Since you've established that this is the gun with the superglued front blade, you might consider fitting it up with a short ramp and dovetail front sight. It won't be "original", but it'd be pretty handy. You can use different height front sights to adjust for vertical alignment and drift it from side to side for horizontal. Paco Kelly wrote this up in his book "Rifles And Handguns - An American Freedom".

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:11 pm

AmBraCol wrote:Since you've established that this is the gun with the superglued front blade, you might consider fitting it up with a short ramp and dovetail front sight. It won't be "original", but it'd be pretty handy. You can use different height front sights to adjust for vertical alignment and drift it from side to side for horizontal. Paco Kelly wrote this up in his book "Rifles And Handguns - An American Freedom".

Dang Paul....you ain't too bad for a white guy.

I forgot about that one. It's probably the best, and easiest solution. But.....I have turned a few barrels myself and unless you are very framiliar with the process, it can be unnerving. I just scribe a faint line with the frame and the barrel and as you know, it don't take much...so........let's pretend that you have to unscrew the barrel to make it all work and then you "break" that time honored "seal" and the barrel is loose......yea, I did that on a real deal Cavarly Colt from 1891......and it was not mine.........I guess that's what Loc-Tite is for.

----6

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:24 pm

The trouble with just turning a barrel is remember the ejector housing, you can bind it up to where it puts a strain on the screw through it at the front and run in a problem with it. I once had one fly off a clone the first time I shot it.

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:42 pm

I think a little too much of a turn will pinch the forcing cone, which will not do much for accuracy. It would probably be something that I would try, but only with some careful measuring, feeler gauges and maybe, nothing to lose?

Mentioning your front sight, I think I would braze a new one on first, or have someone who is good at it to do it for me.

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:44 pm

williamranks wrote:I remember a Gun Digest article, don't remember which year. The writer recommended bending the barrel to regulate a SA. It had pics of the homemade fixture he used in a vise and gave his method of deciding how much bend.

That has to be a gag article?

Or maybe a salvaging one that was run over by a truck. Pretty sure the frame would bend long before the barrel.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:20 am

Trap shooters have been known to bend barrels to make them hit where desired. They also tend to straighten back out with time and shots fired. The good thing with that is * it's not my gun they are messing up*. Not a good idea!
I think most here are assuming the OP's front sight is vertical now.... Turning the barrel may make it virtical and correct the windage issue at the same time.
Only a couple of degrees of tilt will change POI quite a lot.

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:45 am

Tactical Lever wrote:
williamranks wrote:I remember a Gun Digest article, don't remember which year. The writer recommended bending the barrel to regulate a SA. It had pics of the homemade fixture he used in a vise and gave his method of deciding how much bend.
That has to be a gag article?

Or maybe a salvaging one that was run over by a truck. Pretty sure the frame would bend long before the barrel.

It was a real article. I've got the DVD set of Gun Digests but, I'm working from home again for another Nuke and don't have the time to look for it.
It might have been in the 60's or 70's.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:54 am

williamranks wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:
williamranks wrote:I remember a Gun Digest article, don't remember which year. The writer recommended bending the barrel to regulate a SA. It had pics of the homemade fixture he used in a vise and gave his method of deciding how much bend.
That has to be a gag article?

Or maybe a salvaging one that was run over by a truck. Pretty sure the frame would bend long before the barrel.

It was a real article. I've got the DVD set of Gun Digests but, I'm working from home again for another Nuke and don't have the time to look for it.
It might have been in the 60's or 70's.

They bent the barrel .001 to .003 of an inch. He gets as much flak for that article as Elmer did for his 600 yard shot article.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:12 pm

If the front sight looks like it is centered/vertical there is the possibility your hold is causing the problem. Before you do anything to the gun make sure it is the gun. The most common right handed hold problem is shooting left/low left.

The best way to know for sure that the gun is shooting POA to POI is to shoot it from a Ransom Machine rest.

The Ransom is bolted securely to a solid bench. Then the gun is clamped in it using moulded clamp inserts that are specific to the grip frame. It is then adjusted to the target and remotely fired several times resetting to the same place. This takes all the human error out and will not only show POI to POA it will show just how well it will group, too.

I don't have a Ransom rest so this is how I do it.
First is target selection. I setup a target at 10 to 15 yds. This will depend on how you plan to use the gun. For me and my eyes, fix sighted SAA's beyond 25 yds is not an option. The target is an inverted "T" on freezer paper made using black electrical tape. The idea is to set the "T's" horizontal line on top of the rear site and center the front sight with the vertical part of the “T”. The objective is for the group to hit POI at the juncture of the two lines. Next is the rest. I actually rest the front of the lower frame on the soft rest/sand bags. Some folks will tell you to just rest your hands but not the gun. I've tried it both ways and have found little or no difference.
Also, what I have found that makes a big difference is stabilizing the shooters head. When shooting a rifle you have a much steadier platform and even a cheek weld on the stock to steady your head. I try to do the same thing by setting up near a post or use an ammo can or something that I can rest my head against. If your head can move it's no different than your sights moving. Now shoot a 5 or 6 shot group using the tips above.
You might even shoot 6 different target using only one chamber to see just what chambers group the best, mark the worst chamber and load only five with the hammer down on this empty chamber.

Here is a good sight to study if you want to be a top notch Pistolero.

Error Analysis and Correction Army Marksmanship Unit
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm
As you can see it can get involved depending on what needs to be done.

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:53 am

I'll have to look for that article. I don't think I have it in my collection. I have seen the "around the corner" shooters, but I don't think I would want to try it with something that shoots straight. I could see it with a shotgun as Chuck mentioned, but that sounds like a crutch also; for a bad habit or poorly made gun. And no doubt it tends to straighten out again, at least on a shotgun.

I tend to trust Elmer Keith's 600 yard shot more. After all, he practically lived with a six gun in his hand. And with a spotter. Not to say that there wasn't a little luck coming into play there. I don't think Elmer himself said that it was a common occurance to shoot like that.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:43 am

A cavalry Colt Six?

........I just threw up in my mouth a little.

NKJ has a good point too. When I see fixed sights shooting left or low left I don't just start moving things around.
My old SAA was shooting low left pretty bad when I got it but it had a terribly stiff trigger and mainspring. The first thing I did was swap out the springs and get the trigger to a level a crappy shot like me could handle.
It took about 90% of the left windage problem out of the picture. What is left I can live with or experiment with loads.

Just don't be too quick to make permanent changes.

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:22 am

What I really need now is a 25yd indoor target range where I can test fire it.
The one I was using caught fire and is unusable right now.

grass range · Post by **grass range** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:30 pm

STOP- Before you do anything to the revolver get to someone with a Ransom Rest and let them fire it with whatever loads you will use the most. Once you know where it is hitting you will know if it is you or the rev. Elevation either way can only be corrected with the front site. Deflection can be corrected by slightly turning the barrel in or out. Use a good barrel vise and a good fitting set of frame blocks; not a stick or hammer handle. Remember to remove the ejection system first. If it is too tight to turn in a little can be scraped off of the shoulder in the lathe and then a corresponding amount has to be filed off of the back of the barrel to get to the correct gap. Turning the barrel either way has nothing to do with the forcing cone regardless of the one comment made here. I recently corrected a Heritage Arms rev with a deflection problem by opening the rear notch on one side only. Which had to be done anyway as you have to see a crack of lite on either side of the front blade when it is in the rear notch.

draperjojo · Post by **draperjojo** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:27 pm

Has anyone else shot it?

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:38 pm

draperjojo wrote:Has anyone else shot it?

When I test shoot any firearm I do it on a solid bench with sandbags and good lighting plus blackened sights to eliminate any errors.
My son in-law said for me to call him when I get a Friday or Saturday off again and he would take me out to his clubs range, so it may be a while.

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:05 am

I don't think I'll be needing to touch my sights after all.
I shot this group this morning at 25 yards on the first try.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I walked downrange to check it.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:11 pm

I think NOT!

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:22 pm

So what happened? You hold your tongue different this time?

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:43 pm

Leverluver wrote:So what happened? You hold your tongue different this time?

I have no idea.
Maybe I just have a bad memory.
Maybe I just, oh, I already said that.

flightsimmer · Post by **flightsimmer** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:54 pm

You know, it may have been my Schofield and not my Hartford.
At any rate, I am well pleased with the Hartford.

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:10 am

grass range wrote:STOP- Before you do anything to the revolver get to someone with a Ransom Rest and let them fire it with whatever loads you will use the most. Once you know where it is hitting you will know if it is you or the rev. Elevation either way can only be corrected with the front site. Deflection can be corrected by slightly turning the barrel in or out. Use a good barrel vise and a good fitting set of frame blocks; not a stick or hammer handle. Remember to remove the ejection system first. If it is too tight to turn in a little can be scraped off of the shoulder in the lathe and then a corresponding amount has to be filed off of the back of the barrel to get to the correct gap. Turning the barrel either way has nothing to do with the forcing cone regardless of the one comment made here. I recently corrected a Heritage Arms rev with a deflection problem by opening the rear notch on one side only. Which had to be done anyway as you have to see a crack of lite on either side of the front blade when it is in the rear notch.

Good suggestion on the shooting vise.

A couple things to consider however. Uberti uses a piece of wood when install barrels. I would not want to file the barrel to correct cylinder gap; too easy to be lopsided by a few thousandths. Perhaps you meant using the lathe? Also it is entirely possible to restrict the forcing cone through the pressure restriction of forcing a tapered thread a little tighter than it should be. May not be a concern with every revolver (like ones with a pinned bbl.), but it is a valid one for some. Also some barrels are crush fit, so it may not torqued correctly as soon as it's loosened slightly. It may have to go a whole turn deeper along with the work that entails.