.40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in OR
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- Griff
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.40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in OR
The rifle was a gift from my wife for graduating the police academy... took her 11 years of saving... but was able to order it and pay in advance... So got the shipping for free... Initially, I wanted a custom shop Winchester 1894, but between the time I "dreamed" and she had the money, Winchester had discontinued the top eject and the 94 lost its appeal with the AE model.
I met Mike Venturino at my first "End Of Trail" in 1986 and we sat around a campfire talking of hunting... and a "buffalo" rifle and hunt fired me up! Ordered it a week later! During that week, Mike & I talked a coupla times about caliber, purpose and features... I wanted a traditional rifle, but didn't want the "hassle" of paperpatchin' bullets as the original 40-90SBN factory cartridges were. I liked Shiloh's Long Range Express gun, but Mike convinced me to cut 4" of barrel from the 34" standard length. I think his words were: "...after 28" of barrel, you're runnin' short on lube and anything over 30" is just sight radius." We talked about just leaving the last four inches as free bored, no rifling;, but he said, if you ever compete in BPCRS, you'll also be over the weight limit unless you go with the standard wood, and maybe even turn the barrel to round. As it is, it's only 2 ounces under the legal weight for NRA competition.
Just the way it came from Shiloh, globe front, no rear barrel dovetail, tang sight & all!
I spent the next 51 weeks scroungin' brass, after many discussions with Vernal Smith ordered a custom mould from LBT and studied up on the history of the cartridge and loads... What I first tried was 85 grains of Prodex RS under a waxed card wad & 370gr LFN seated out to touch the lands. But gosh, was it a mess, hard crusty fouling and frankly, poor performance. With only two days left before EOT '87, I switched out the 2F Goex with the same card wad & the same BP lube made by a friend. Straight outta the box this is a 2" in 100yd load. No compression and the powder filled to the bottom of the neck. I ended up shooting the long range side match at the '87 EOT using the 370 gr LFN and 5744... Hitting 10 of 10 @ 200 yards on a ¼ lifesize buffalo silhouette, but a little slower than the winner... Strangely enough, I've never shot any loads over 5744 on paper with any of the bullet I have... I SHOULD rectify that!
The subsequent 26 years have been a search for that sub MOA load! Interestingly enough, my research keeps tellin' me to relieve the throat, and use a lighter bullet. Yet, I'm stubborn if not determined. Twist in this rifle is 1:18 and I've yet to improve on the 2" group that the first Goex load yielded.
I've played with an RCBS 350 grain plain base bullet and a 400 grain Postell that I got from Mike V. That 400 grainer has to be set back below the neck to chamber... otherwise I need to recut the leade to allow it the be seated out further. Or cut it for a PP bullet. Can you tell I'm reluctant to alter the rifle?
Anyway, here's the 3 bullet molds I have (from l-r: 400gr Postell, 370gr LFN, & 350gr RCBS , the two case styles, a #14 shell-holder & a dial caliper for scale.
I really need to get out and try some of my Swiss, but I keeping tellin' myself I'm waiting on a new .410 sizer (finally ordered), the 330 grain spritzer mold I want made (still hemmin' & hawin' over that)... and any number of other excuses... I would probably be more fired up to do this if I didn't have to drive to west Texas, Houston, or OKC to shoot BPCRS or signed up for that buffalo hunt or goin' to Africa!
BTW, Leverluver I just measured the rim thickness, Bertram is .074 while the HDS, CSA & unmarked brass I have is all .069. All will chamber, but yes, the Bertram Brass needs a little more force to close the block. I'll have to measure one of the fired BB cases. Rim dia. on the HDS etal is .601 and the Bertram is .600. A #5 shell holder is on the way from either Midway or Brownells, (can't remember, got stuff comin' from both & too lazy to look), be here next week. BTW, Custombrassandbullets.com has some 40.-90SBN brass by Quality Brass in stock! It's only $41.97 per 20. Theoretically, made in the US, TX to be exact. I'll have to research that a bit more tomorrow. All the older brass I have (HDS/CSA/unstamped) was by the old Jamison Co.; who BTW, is back making brass: Captech International out of Rapid City, SD.
I met Mike Venturino at my first "End Of Trail" in 1986 and we sat around a campfire talking of hunting... and a "buffalo" rifle and hunt fired me up! Ordered it a week later! During that week, Mike & I talked a coupla times about caliber, purpose and features... I wanted a traditional rifle, but didn't want the "hassle" of paperpatchin' bullets as the original 40-90SBN factory cartridges were. I liked Shiloh's Long Range Express gun, but Mike convinced me to cut 4" of barrel from the 34" standard length. I think his words were: "...after 28" of barrel, you're runnin' short on lube and anything over 30" is just sight radius." We talked about just leaving the last four inches as free bored, no rifling;, but he said, if you ever compete in BPCRS, you'll also be over the weight limit unless you go with the standard wood, and maybe even turn the barrel to round. As it is, it's only 2 ounces under the legal weight for NRA competition.
Just the way it came from Shiloh, globe front, no rear barrel dovetail, tang sight & all!
I spent the next 51 weeks scroungin' brass, after many discussions with Vernal Smith ordered a custom mould from LBT and studied up on the history of the cartridge and loads... What I first tried was 85 grains of Prodex RS under a waxed card wad & 370gr LFN seated out to touch the lands. But gosh, was it a mess, hard crusty fouling and frankly, poor performance. With only two days left before EOT '87, I switched out the 2F Goex with the same card wad & the same BP lube made by a friend. Straight outta the box this is a 2" in 100yd load. No compression and the powder filled to the bottom of the neck. I ended up shooting the long range side match at the '87 EOT using the 370 gr LFN and 5744... Hitting 10 of 10 @ 200 yards on a ¼ lifesize buffalo silhouette, but a little slower than the winner... Strangely enough, I've never shot any loads over 5744 on paper with any of the bullet I have... I SHOULD rectify that!
The subsequent 26 years have been a search for that sub MOA load! Interestingly enough, my research keeps tellin' me to relieve the throat, and use a lighter bullet. Yet, I'm stubborn if not determined. Twist in this rifle is 1:18 and I've yet to improve on the 2" group that the first Goex load yielded.
I've played with an RCBS 350 grain plain base bullet and a 400 grain Postell that I got from Mike V. That 400 grainer has to be set back below the neck to chamber... otherwise I need to recut the leade to allow it the be seated out further. Or cut it for a PP bullet. Can you tell I'm reluctant to alter the rifle?
Anyway, here's the 3 bullet molds I have (from l-r: 400gr Postell, 370gr LFN, & 350gr RCBS , the two case styles, a #14 shell-holder & a dial caliper for scale.
I really need to get out and try some of my Swiss, but I keeping tellin' myself I'm waiting on a new .410 sizer (finally ordered), the 330 grain spritzer mold I want made (still hemmin' & hawin' over that)... and any number of other excuses... I would probably be more fired up to do this if I didn't have to drive to west Texas, Houston, or OKC to shoot BPCRS or signed up for that buffalo hunt or goin' to Africa!
BTW, Leverluver I just measured the rim thickness, Bertram is .074 while the HDS, CSA & unmarked brass I have is all .069. All will chamber, but yes, the Bertram Brass needs a little more force to close the block. I'll have to measure one of the fired BB cases. Rim dia. on the HDS etal is .601 and the Bertram is .600. A #5 shell holder is on the way from either Midway or Brownells, (can't remember, got stuff comin' from both & too lazy to look), be here next week. BTW, Custombrassandbullets.com has some 40.-90SBN brass by Quality Brass in stock! It's only $41.97 per 20. Theoretically, made in the US, TX to be exact. I'll have to research that a bit more tomorrow. All the older brass I have (HDS/CSA/unstamped) was by the old Jamison Co.; who BTW, is back making brass: Captech International out of Rapid City, SD.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Griff, wonderful, wonderful story and an absolutely legendary rifle and caliber. Thank you so much for posting.
Always wanted to meet Mike V., as I have read just about everything he has ever written.
The bottlenecks have had a reputation for being finicky and throat fouling, but I notice there are several shooters at the national level who have finally gotten the .44-77 to perform. That's the caliber on my order form on file with deposit at Shiloh.
I have had .40-70 Sharps Straight and Bottleneck, but in rolling blocks with poor sights, so I never got to make them sing.
Currently have a Pedersoli roller in .40-65, and plan to mount a Kelly Soule.
Always wanted to meet Mike V., as I have read just about everything he has ever written.
The bottlenecks have had a reputation for being finicky and throat fouling, but I notice there are several shooters at the national level who have finally gotten the .44-77 to perform. That's the caliber on my order form on file with deposit at Shiloh.
I have had .40-70 Sharps Straight and Bottleneck, but in rolling blocks with poor sights, so I never got to make them sing.
Currently have a Pedersoli roller in .40-65, and plan to mount a Kelly Soule.
- Griff
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Since I was starting with a clean slate, having only loaded BP in .38Spl., .45Colt & .45-70 I probably should have gone with the .44-77... but the .40-90BN has such a good long range history... I thought that was where I wanted to be.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Very nice !
Never fooled with that cartridge , closest I've gotten was 40-70 SS in an original Hepburn that belonged to a now deceased friend .
Never fooled with that cartridge , closest I've gotten was 40-70 SS in an original Hepburn that belonged to a now deceased friend .
Parkers , Mannlicher Schoenauer’s , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines !
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
If I'm reading your post correctly, you have a 1987 Shiloh. About the same age as mine. If that's correct, yours was made in Farmingdale. Most of the rifles from that era had a very radical chamber. Mine was one of them (a .45-90).
I'd be super interested to know if you have a particularly long throat on that chamber. If you haven't already, you could cast it or bump-swaged it.
This is the chamber that was orginally on my sharps .45-90.
I'd be super interested to know if you have a particularly long throat on that chamber. If you haven't already, you could cast it or bump-swaged it.
This is the chamber that was orginally on my sharps .45-90.
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
A great woman and a great rifle. Somewhere, you'll find that magic load. If a heavy cast 35 penetrates and kills all out of proportion, that 40 should do the trick on just about anything that walks.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
- Griff
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Brent,
Yes & no, it's a 1987, but built in Big Timber, sez "Big Timber, MT" on the left side of the receiver. I thought they moved in 1985... Ser # 835X.
My chamber is fairly short, especially for grease groove bullets. I didn't want a long chamber or PP bullets.
Yes & no, it's a 1987, but built in Big Timber, sez "Big Timber, MT" on the left side of the receiver. I thought they moved in 1985... Ser # 835X.
My chamber is fairly short, especially for grease groove bullets. I didn't want a long chamber or PP bullets.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Griff you might want to try some 1.5 or 2F Olde Eynsford. With a 480 gr. Saeco and 68.o gr. of Olde Eynsford in my 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps I'm getting 5 shots in just a hair over an inch. Great velocity, and very light fouling that is easily controlled with a blow tube. This combination is VERY primer sensitive. I use CCI BR-2's, any other primer will double or triple group size.
I will edit this to say that I meant it's very primer sensitive in my rifle. A good mentor of BPCR told me to try some Remington 9 1/2 primers that it really shrunk his groups with OE. It opened my group way up. Must experiment with primers. I've never had any rifle that is so sensitive to primers as this one.
I will edit this to say that I meant it's very primer sensitive in my rifle. A good mentor of BPCR told me to try some Remington 9 1/2 primers that it really shrunk his groups with OE. It opened my group way up. Must experiment with primers. I've never had any rifle that is so sensitive to primers as this one.
Last edited by TedH on Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NRA Life Member
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
You don't want long chambers for anything! Especially paper patches. But if yours is really short, you are good.
I'm not an expert on dates for Shilohs, but what I recall is that they were in Farmingdale at that time. They apparently produced some of those odd chambers even after moving to BT, but not very many.
Do you have the large, one-piece firing pin or the modern skinny one in two pieces?
Either way, that's a nice rifle and Mike steered you right on that barrel length.
Brent
I'm not an expert on dates for Shilohs, but what I recall is that they were in Farmingdale at that time. They apparently produced some of those odd chambers even after moving to BT, but not very many.
Do you have the large, one-piece firing pin or the modern skinny one in two pieces?
Either way, that's a nice rifle and Mike steered you right on that barrel length.
Brent
- Griff
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
I have the Swiss 1.5, and will be getting some Olde Eynsford, I'll have to give the BR primers a try, I've just been using WLRs. Tried Magnums, but they opened up groups also.TedH wrote:Griff you might want to try some 1.5 or 2F Olde Eynsford. With a 480 gr. Saeco and 68.o gr. of Olde Eynsford in my 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps I'm getting 5 shots in just a hair over an inch. Great velocity, and very light fouling that is easily controlled with a blow tube. This combination is VERY primer sensitive. I use CCI BR-2's, any other primer will double or triple group size.
Brent, I don't know. I've never taken the block apart.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
After many years (and animals) with a Shiloh Sharps Montana Roughrider in 45-70 I have a strong yearning for the same in 40-90-370 Sharps Straight (3 1/4). Much negative has been cast at this cartridge which makes it more the challenge.
Any with experience to share?
Any with experience to share?
"Any man who covers his face and packs a gun is a legitimate target for any decent citizen"
Jeff Cooper
Jeff Cooper
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Looks like it might be the large, one-piece. Hard to tell from a photo - I'm not good at judging the size.
Here are three blocks - two for Shiloh 74s. The one on the left is my Farmer. I broke the tip and a friend repaired it. Then a Shiloh 2-piece followed by an Axtell 77.
If you have the middle block style you should get a couple of spare firing pins and even a spare transfer bar.
Regardless of which one you have, you definitely should take it apart and clean it periodically. It can accumulate stuff (esp brass from the back of the primers), and that will lead to busted pins or worse.
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... CN0193.JPG
PS. Bullard, the .40 3.25" case is not an authentic Sharps chambering. No original Sharps were made with 3.25 chambers in any caliber.
Here are three blocks - two for Shiloh 74s. The one on the left is my Farmer. I broke the tip and a friend repaired it. Then a Shiloh 2-piece followed by an Axtell 77.
If you have the middle block style you should get a couple of spare firing pins and even a spare transfer bar.
Regardless of which one you have, you definitely should take it apart and clean it periodically. It can accumulate stuff (esp brass from the back of the primers), and that will lead to busted pins or worse.
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... CN0193.JPG
PS. Bullard, the .40 3.25" case is not an authentic Sharps chambering. No original Sharps were made with 3.25 chambers in any caliber.
- Griff
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Definitely the middle one. I just took it apart and cleaned it. Surprisingly, it wasn't bad... a little "gummy" around the springs, and yep, cleaning helped. I kinda like this design... seem like it'd keep the spring pressure pretty equal across the transfer bar. Had to chuckle, been so long since it was apart, I forgot how the extractor had go in!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
BrentD : PS. Bullard, the .40 3.25" case is not an authentic Sharps chambering. No original Sharps were made with 3.25 chambers in any caliber.
Mike V reminds this ad nauseam.
Me still thinks this would make a nifty elk,moose, etc round.
Mike V reminds this ad nauseam.
Me still thinks this would make a nifty elk,moose, etc round.
"Any man who covers his face and packs a gun is a legitimate target for any decent citizen"
Jeff Cooper
Jeff Cooper
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Bullard, I bet he does. I too share Mike's faith in the .45s, but a 40 that big will certainly work, at least for the first shot. You might wrestle a bit with fouling after that, but you do have space for lots of grease cookie.
Good luck with it!
Good luck with it!
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Really enjoyed the write-up. Thanks for posting.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
- Shasta
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
^^^^^ What Kirk said ^^^^^
Would like to hear more about this rifle in the future!
SHASTA
Would like to hear more about this rifle in the future!
SHASTA
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
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http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Griff Thanks for the numbers on the cases. Only one in 20 of my brass will chamber unaltered and even those that do are scraped by the breech block. I don't have any here at the house but don't recall any of them exceeding .069. If I really get serious, I'll send it back to have the head space increased some. I've always shot smokeless but maybe in retirement, I'll look into playing with black again. I doubt if it will the best for long range use as it is a saddle rifle with a 26" barrel. I was looking for more portability but the years snuck up on me and I never did take it hunting.
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Griff,
Thank you for the great write-up. My only experience with BPCR has been with the 45/70, which is pretty easy-peezy to get decent results with. I've pondered a 40...just never got around to it.
In all of your work with various load combinations, have you ever tried an over-primer wad..??
I've heard...fwiw, some folks putting a piece of tissue, or newsprint over the primer, before dropping the powder in.
I've never had the conversations with the real Pro's that you have however, so what I get is just rumour and casual chat.
I suspect if there were anything to it, you'd have already been there/done that. Geeez...I thought I WAS overly "detail oriented" in working out loads for my muzzleloading bench rifle..!!!
Good luck going forward.
Thank you for the great write-up. My only experience with BPCR has been with the 45/70, which is pretty easy-peezy to get decent results with. I've pondered a 40...just never got around to it.
In all of your work with various load combinations, have you ever tried an over-primer wad..??
I've heard...fwiw, some folks putting a piece of tissue, or newsprint over the primer, before dropping the powder in.
I've never had the conversations with the real Pro's that you have however, so what I get is just rumour and casual chat.
I suspect if there were anything to it, you'd have already been there/done that. Geeez...I thought I WAS overly "detail oriented" in working out loads for my muzzleloading bench rifle..!!!
Good luck going forward.
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Thank you Griff. This is the kind of discussion that really gets people interested in load development, black powder and the game of BPCR. I know that Red Castle in Tulsa has a range for BPCR and I think a monthly match though I've never competed in the sport. I have shot some long range matches at SASS events with my Danish Roller that I foolishly ran a 45-70 reamer in many years ago. I can use the 45-70 fired cases and load them with a full charge of ffg and a 300 grain bullet that has to be dia. .461 to reach the bottom of the grooves. Shoots pretty good then, maybe 2.5" groups at 100. It was originally 11.7 X 51R Danish and the twist is slow which requires a light bullet. One of my Dad's friends gave it to me when I was 12. He had "liberated" it during WWII.
I do not resize the cases just drop tube in the Goex ffg, seat an over powder wad and a grease cookie and hand seat the bullet. I should probably open up the primer flash hole like I have done to all my 45-90 cases. Opening the flash hole (or "uniforming" and deburring) was the one thing that all the past champions recommended when writing for Ventorino's book on shooting buffalo rifles. Consult elsewhere for the correct size but I think dia .096 inch. You'll need an extended countersink to deburr the inside of the hole or just use a drill bit that is long enough to reach the bottom of the case with enough sticking out to enable you to twist it by hand. No power tools here please!
Have you tried annealing the case necks to make the bullet pull uniform? They need to be sized and expanded a couple times before loading to work harden them a little after annealing.
I do not resize the cases just drop tube in the Goex ffg, seat an over powder wad and a grease cookie and hand seat the bullet. I should probably open up the primer flash hole like I have done to all my 45-90 cases. Opening the flash hole (or "uniforming" and deburring) was the one thing that all the past champions recommended when writing for Ventorino's book on shooting buffalo rifles. Consult elsewhere for the correct size but I think dia .096 inch. You'll need an extended countersink to deburr the inside of the hole or just use a drill bit that is long enough to reach the bottom of the case with enough sticking out to enable you to twist it by hand. No power tools here please!
Have you tried annealing the case necks to make the bullet pull uniform? They need to be sized and expanded a couple times before loading to work harden them a little after annealing.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
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SASS
ITSASS
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
MMW,
DO NOT open up your flash holes. Really. No one, and I mean no one, on the firing line does this anymore. It was an internet fad that collapsed like so many others. I went down that road and messed up a lot of perfectly fine brass that way.
Now, the current fad is primer wads, but no amount of especially careful testing has proven any positive value to me. Some like to use large pistol primers too. They may give accurate loads, but they can also mess up a breech block, esp on a Sharps.
DO NOT open up your flash holes. Really. No one, and I mean no one, on the firing line does this anymore. It was an internet fad that collapsed like so many others. I went down that road and messed up a lot of perfectly fine brass that way.
Now, the current fad is primer wads, but no amount of especially careful testing has proven any positive value to me. Some like to use large pistol primers too. They may give accurate loads, but they can also mess up a breech block, esp on a Sharps.
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Curious, how do the pistol primers mess up the breech block?
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
pistol primers are not as tall as rifle primers. So, they sit deeper in the primer pocket and get a running start to peen the edge of the flash hole. One a sharps - which has a firing pin coming in on a sharp angle from above, the top of the firing pin hole is not wells supported. Eventually, this wear and tear can require substantial breech block surgery or a transplant. some people put a primer-cardwad UNDER the primer, this has the effect of keeping the primer a little higher in the pocket preventing some of this peening issue. This is the only utility that I have ever seen in primer wads. Putting a wad in the case is the norm for most people using primer wads however.
You typically won't ruin a block in just a few shots, but over time, this can have undesired consequences. I would not even think about doing this with a fat-pinned Farmingdale firing pin and block.
You typically won't ruin a block in just a few shots, but over time, this can have undesired consequences. I would not even think about doing this with a fat-pinned Farmingdale firing pin and block.
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Brent, wasn't it Spence Wolf who started the oversized flash hole thing with his book on replicating Frankford Arsenal .45-70 Gummint cartridges for the Trapdoor?
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
It might have been. I don't know where it got its start but it swept through the internet shooting fraternity like a tornado. I wrecked ~150 .45-100 cases back when they were like gold - if you could find them at all. Lots of others did the same.
Before that, it was the BPCRs require magnum primer phase. Garbe and MLV wrote that in their book way back in the early 90s I think it was. Now everyone wants the mildest primer possible with fad being pistol primers and primer wads.
These things happen because folks have to experiment, so the creators shouldn't be criticized too heavily. But that said, what passes for adequate, never mind rigorous, testing in the shooting world is really pretty pathetic and that is one of my biggest gripes about internet resources.
Before that, it was the BPCRs require magnum primer phase. Garbe and MLV wrote that in their book way back in the early 90s I think it was. Now everyone wants the mildest primer possible with fad being pistol primers and primer wads.
These things happen because folks have to experiment, so the creators shouldn't be criticized too heavily. But that said, what passes for adequate, never mind rigorous, testing in the shooting world is really pretty pathetic and that is one of my biggest gripes about internet resources.
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Aye, "uniforming" the flash holes is a good thing... making them larger is a big negative in my book. Some of mine have a burr around the flash hole, as if they were punched out from the body of the case, instead of thru the primer pocket. THAT I remove with the tip of a counter sink by hand.
On my last testing session, I ran a cleaning brush around the inside of the necks to remove the crusty fouling that hadn't gotten removed by simple agitation in the soapy solution wash and the vibratory media. I'd found the same crusty fouling in my .45 Colt cases, which was knocked loose by just the sizing process... I'd noticed that, looking into the case as the ram came up at the charging station there was a fine layer of soot in the bottom of the case, covering the flash hole. I couldn't tell how many got loaded like that... but once I did, I'd take the case out after being primed, knock it against the bench and it was just a "fine" layer, but sometimes enough to 1/32-1/16 of inch thick! In the big .40-90SBN case, which contained even more of this soot, it just proved too troublesome to get it all out. Being a necked case, I had to use a plastic bristle to clear the neck and still contact the body. But, then it didn't remove enough to really make a difference. And, unlike the .45 Colt rifles, the chamber is quite tight, so the case didn't get squeezed as much dislodging the soot as it did in the .45 Colt cases.
So, I'd taken to shooting my BP rounds in carefully prepared cases, then shooting smokeless in the same cases in the hope of 'burning' the soot out. let me just say, "that plan didn't work!" If anything, it BAKED the soot on harder! Hence my hope to have the sonic cleaner be my magic wand. And while the cases don't look "new" inside, they're cleaner than any previous hand cleaning I've been able to get.
On my last testing session, I ran a cleaning brush around the inside of the necks to remove the crusty fouling that hadn't gotten removed by simple agitation in the soapy solution wash and the vibratory media. I'd found the same crusty fouling in my .45 Colt cases, which was knocked loose by just the sizing process... I'd noticed that, looking into the case as the ram came up at the charging station there was a fine layer of soot in the bottom of the case, covering the flash hole. I couldn't tell how many got loaded like that... but once I did, I'd take the case out after being primed, knock it against the bench and it was just a "fine" layer, but sometimes enough to 1/32-1/16 of inch thick! In the big .40-90SBN case, which contained even more of this soot, it just proved too troublesome to get it all out. Being a necked case, I had to use a plastic bristle to clear the neck and still contact the body. But, then it didn't remove enough to really make a difference. And, unlike the .45 Colt rifles, the chamber is quite tight, so the case didn't get squeezed as much dislodging the soot as it did in the .45 Colt cases.
So, I'd taken to shooting my BP rounds in carefully prepared cases, then shooting smokeless in the same cases in the hope of 'burning' the soot out. let me just say, "that plan didn't work!" If anything, it BAKED the soot on harder! Hence my hope to have the sonic cleaner be my magic wand. And while the cases don't look "new" inside, they're cleaner than any previous hand cleaning I've been able to get.
If it were mine, I would consider just having the chamber re-reamed to make sure it was at the right depth... Since the difference on my cases is just .005, I'm just going to run the back of the cases over some sandpaper...Leverluver wrote:Griff Thanks for the numbers on the cases. Only one in 20 of my brass will chamber unaltered and even those that do are scraped by the breech block. I don't have any here at the house but don't recall any of them exceeding .069. If I really get serious, I'll send it back to have the head space increased some. I've always shot smokeless but maybe in retirement, I'll look into playing with black again. I doubt if it will the best for long range use as it is a saddle rifle with a 26" barrel. I was looking for more portability but the years snuck up on me and I never did take it hunting.
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
ARGGGG! Just looked at my Bertram cases... got 100 all sized and primed... there goes the sanding off the rims!!! Guess it'll have to wait until their fired at least ONCE! Oh well, still have 95 that haven't been sized or primed, and five that have been fired, but not yet re-primed... Gosh, have to walk out to the barn to collect 'em up! Brrrr! It's like 38º outside!
Griff,
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
the ultrasonic will work. I used one for several years. It takes a while and use "degassed" water. Boil it if you have to.
I soaked my brass in water with a bit of white vinegar before putting them in the ultrasonic. Now I use steel pins in a Lortone tumbler. Much much better in my opinion.
cleaning up the flash around the inside of the flash holes is a good idea. On Starline cases, this is rarely necessary however. but on some Remington I have, a fair bit of brass has to be removed to get a good clean hold.
I soaked my brass in water with a bit of white vinegar before putting them in the ultrasonic. Now I use steel pins in a Lortone tumbler. Much much better in my opinion.
cleaning up the flash around the inside of the flash holes is a good idea. On Starline cases, this is rarely necessary however. but on some Remington I have, a fair bit of brass has to be removed to get a good clean hold.
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
As far as the primer issue goes, supposedly the CCI BR-2 is the same composition of a LP primer in a LR cup. I cant say it's gospel, but I have tried LPP, and they do not shoot as well as the BR-2 primer.
NRA Life Member
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
BR2s are my primer of choice as well. I'm not sure they really are better, but I sure feel better using them.
BTW, do you have a favorite place to buy them cheap? I need to buy some for the Aussies this year.
Brent
BTW, do you have a favorite place to buy them cheap? I need to buy some for the Aussies this year.
Brent
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Aw... man, not that I've found I've already primed 100 cases... and was going to buy some BR-2s this Wednesday when the fun store opens after his 3-day weekend(?), hmmm... maybe I will carefully deprime these and trim the back then reprime with BR-2... and yes, before you ask, the primers are already below flush...TedH wrote:As far as the primer issue goes, supposedly the CCI BR-2 is the same composition of a LP primer in a LR cup. I cant say it's gospel, but I have tried LPP, and they do not shoot as well as the BR-2 primer.
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
probably the best data on primers
http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_test ... erence.htm
Note that the CCI BR2s are both mild and consistent.
Another favorite are the Federal match rifle or LP primers.
http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_test ... erence.htm
Note that the CCI BR2s are both mild and consistent.
Another favorite are the Federal match rifle or LP primers.
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
I don't. I always have a bear of a time finding them, and when I do they are about 60 bucks a brick.BrentD wrote:BR2s are my primer of choice as well. I'm not sure they really are better, but I sure feel better using them.
BTW, do you have a favorite place to buy them cheap? I need to buy some for the Aussies this year.
Brent
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Brent, when Wedn. rolls around I'll check out my two local places and see... I thought I saw some at one place last week, but... wasn't specifically looking for BRs.
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
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No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
I see I can get them at Midway at about $55/k. Seems like someone should have them for $10/k cheaper or so - I thought I might by 5-10k of them if I could get them for a bit less.
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
I just took a couple of my once-fired Bertram cases and, after being run thru the loading process once, fired in the gun, then being resized, the rims now measure .070-.071". This is the same lot of brass that I bought from custombrassandbullets.com back in the mid-'90s. It did take over a year to get them tho'. (At the time they were $89/100... wouldn't I love to only pay that now)! None of my Bertram brass has been altered to date, except by the process of loading, (including sized & then trim to length {I use 2.620" vs. 2.625 as that's the untrimmed length of my new Bertram brass}), firing and resizing.Leverluver wrote:Griff Thanks for the numbers on the cases. Only one in 20 of my brass will chamber unaltered and even those that do are scraped by the breech block. I don't have any here at the house but don't recall any of them exceeding .069. If I really get serious, I'll send it back to have the head space increased some. I've always shot smokeless but maybe in retirement, I'll look into playing with black again. I doubt if it will the best for long range use as it is a saddle rifle with a 26" barrel. I was looking for more portability but the years snuck up on me and I never did take it hunting.
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
ergo, as I have said (I think) in other posts, the rifle came with too tight of a head space. One would think that it would handle a rim of 45-70 thickness but it won't. Mine isn't as old as yours but it's around 20 years old. I remember when I ordered it I was told it would be 14 months but it turned out to be 46 months. I don't know whether that was in the ownership transition period or not. My 45-70 is from roughly the same time period and has the same issues although enough unaltered can be found that will work, tight but work.
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Nice write up. I have just really started down the long dark road of bpcr with my roller. Will have to look around for some of the BR-2's. I have been using WLR's in my 45-70 with decent results when I am not screwing up the shot..
by the way Ted I can fit 75gr FFg Goex under that Saeco bullet( really need to go on track of the wolf and order a 45 2.4 case to try in this thing). Hoping to get the whole batch loaded and head to the range this weekend.
Griff I am looking forward to see how things progress for you.
by the way Ted I can fit 75gr FFg Goex under that Saeco bullet( really need to go on track of the wolf and order a 45 2.4 case to try in this thing). Hoping to get the whole batch loaded and head to the range this weekend.
Griff I am looking forward to see how things progress for you.
Jeremy
GySgt USMC Ret
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
I have an Argentine Remington RB in .43 Spanish which is in remarkably good condition for a gun that is almost 140 years old. I have read that .43 Spanish is almost the same as .44-77. Is this true or just internet chatter? Thank you.
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
They are very close in physical dimensions and given the same weight bullet are balistic twins. The .43 spanish military load was with a .443 paper patch bullet of 395gr. Saw a nice one a few months back at a local store when I went back to make an offer it was gone. I have a NYSM improved in 45-70 and enjoy shooting it. The Rolling Block is just a great user friendly design.
Jeremy
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To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Gaucho, the Argentine rollers are often found in excellent shape, but they generally have a very long throat, which can make for some frustration loading with grease groove vs. paper-patched bullets.
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
BrentD,
Finally made it around to the local fun store, he sold me a brick out of his personal stash... and had his wife order 15,000 more for the store (& I'll bet him too). These were $43/K. Certainly not cheap. But this'll last me quite a while. Just out of curiosity, what are guys using for the primer wads... I hear everything from toilet paper to some kind of tissue paper. Also got a .410 sizer die along with the proper top punch for this lubri-sizer. Gonna have to do several small lots to check MV & numbers as well as group size. Guess there's no excuse not to open that can of Swiss 1-½!
Finally made it around to the local fun store, he sold me a brick out of his personal stash... and had his wife order 15,000 more for the store (& I'll bet him too). These were $43/K. Certainly not cheap. But this'll last me quite a while. Just out of curiosity, what are guys using for the primer wads... I hear everything from toilet paper to some kind of tissue paper. Also got a .410 sizer die along with the proper top punch for this lubri-sizer. Gonna have to do several small lots to check MV & numbers as well as group size. Guess there's no excuse not to open that can of Swiss 1-½!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
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GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
The two most common over primer wads I have heard used is T.P. or news paper.
Jeremy
GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Thanks Jeremy. Got my dummy rounds made up all three bullets I cast... now sized @ .410.
All chamber in my rifle...
After the 'honey-do's', it's on to actual loads!!!
All chamber in my rifle...
After the 'honey-do's', it's on to actual loads!!!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
The 40-90 BN is a tough cartridge to get to shoot in original Sharps. I have 2 of them, both sent to Montana in the 1870's for the last of the buffalo hunts of the Northern plains. The top rifle is a 12 1/2 pounder sent to J.G. Dow in Bozeman Montana Territory. It ended up in Miles city at A. D. McAusland's shop and got rebarreled to 40-90 BN.
The second gun is a Walter Cooper marked gun sent to Bozeman, Montana Territory about the same time, it is also a 40-90 BN. It is still killing Buffalo and other stuff 130 years later...
The second gun is a Walter Cooper marked gun sent to Bozeman, Montana Territory about the same time, it is also a 40-90 BN. It is still killing Buffalo and other stuff 130 years later...
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Very nice Shrapnel! Good lookin' guns, and good shootin'. Tell us about your loads.
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
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SASS/CMSA #93
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
There isn't much to tell. We are still in the R&D aspect of these guns. They don't shoot grease groove bullets well and I don't want to shoot 5744 in them, so we are still working on the best load for this cartridge. We refers to Kirk Bryan from Shiloh, and Mike Venturino. Kirk has a bullet mould made for a PP bullet, we just haven't gotten far with it yet as he is in the middle of getting the new 1877 Sharps perfected and into production.
It has been a few years, but I'm patient, you can't turn down help from people like this...
It has been a few years, but I'm patient, you can't turn down help from people like this...
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Shrapnel, you hang out with some pretty cool homies.
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Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
Absolutely! But watch that Mike fellar... he's a story teller, ya know!Shrapnel wrote:It has been a few years, but I'm patient, you can't turn down help from people like this...
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
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GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck & Shiloh 1874 just for Bill in
I have been fortunate in that regard. It has gotten me in several books, one book cover and dozens of magazine articles. All that and $1.00 will buy a coke...Bill in Oregon wrote:Shrapnel, you hang out with some pretty cool homies.