New Toy II- A Springfield Krag

[Shasta]

I always like to have a back-up gun along while shooting silhouette matches, so in addition to the Swedish Mauser I posted about in another thread, I also purchased on Gunbroker a really cool full length, unaltered 1898 Springfield in 30-40 Krag. I want to shoot in Vintage Military Rifle silhouette matches using cast lead bullets, and this beauty had just been fitted with a brand new barrel that is absolutely spotless. The action is extremely smooth and it has a very good trigger too.
The cast bullet loads I've tested with this rifle so far have not been outstanding, but I'm sure I can come up with a load it likes before the silhouette matches start up next year. And now for the pictures:










SHASTA

[BrentD]

Hey Shasta, I would love to hear what you have found about loading for this rifle. I have one that will be delivered on Tuesday, so I am all in for learning about loads that will knock over the rams at 500m.

What bullet are you using? I'm looking for a mould right now.

Brent

[JerryB]

Shasta, you picked up a real fine piece of history and a great shooting rifle. I have one that my grandson bought for me a few years ago. Mine was made in 1899, complete except two pieces of wood missing over the sight and under the barrel. They are a lot of fun to shoot and very accurate with factory ammo, might start reloading it. Good luck with yours.

[Ben_Rumson]

Nice... You will well set up for the matches when you get her like you like her...I think you'll have to go a long way to find a smoother BA rifle..

[Shasta]

BrentD-

Bullet mold is a Lyman 311299. I'm trying to stay with a heavier bullet in keeping with the original Krag round, and I'm hoping it will take down the rams.

Bullets are sized at .310" and weigh 201 grains with gas check and lube. I haven't slugged the bore yet, I just used a load that I have for my Browning 1895 .30-40 Krag. I scored a hundred or so used brass at the Reno Gun Show yesterday, so I can get busy playing with the Springfield.

SHASTA

[BrentD]

Shasta,
I like where you are going. I'm headed pretty much the same direction. But I have been doing some homework and learned some things about Lyman bullet moulds and Krag barrels. First, Lyman moulds made in the last decade or so are significantly undersized compared tow that those same models were years ago. Second, Krag barrels seem to be a bit larger than other .30 cal barrels. You may want to use a larger sizing die and see if that helps a bit.

This is just what I'm reading in many independent locations, so I can't say it is true from first hand knowledge. But, I have found a maker of that bullet and the 311284 that is NOT making them undersized. NOE molds makes them. I will be calling them next week, after my rifle arrives, and I get the bore slugged.

I asked Mike Venturino, who shoots military Krags a fair bit, including at silhouettes. Mike is a gun writer and big-time silhouette competitor with BPCR and military rifles. He recommends the 311299 or 311384 from the OLD Lyman moulds, with a gas check and 20 grs of 5477. I have seen this same load recommended in quite a few other places as well.

Brent

[Ray Newman]

Brent et al: from the Lyman Reloading Handbook #49 and Cast Bullet handbook, 4th edition--

“Cast bullet #311284 [210 grains #2 Alloy gas check] was designed for the 30-40 and closely replicates both the weight and profile of the 220 grain jacketed loading. Shooters wishing to load cast bullet #311332 [180 grain #2 Alloy gas check] may use the data for bullet #311644 [190 grains #2 Alloy gas check] and seat the bullet to an overall length of 3.025". Reloader 7, SR-4759 and AA 5744 provided the best results in our cast bullet testing.”

This must be the .30-40 season. Yesterday I stopped at John Taylor’s shop and picked my Browning BPCR which he re-barreled to a .30-40. The BPCR now sports a 30” Shilen barrel and without ‘scope and mounts, it weighs in at 11 pounds, 12 ounces. He machined the barrel to match the original contour -- no alteration to fore stock needed. Also matched the dull finish of the original barrel to reduce glare in bright sun. Always wanted a .30-40 single shot bench rifle. Just need to decide on a ‘scope.

Shasta: Springfield Armory fabricated the infantry that I am caretaker of in April 1902. The Armory completed yours in march 1902.

A worthwhile handy pocket-sized reference is J. Poyer's "The American Krag Rifle and carbine". Approximately US$23.00 plus shippingr for the new revised edition. See -- https://www.northcapepubs.com/#anchor306749

I gave up shooting my Krag a few years ago in deference to its age and almost armory-new condition. Interesting rifles, and the round was made for cast bullets with its long neck. Wished I had also bought a cavalry carbine and another infantry rifle to shoot. Back about 30 years ago, they were considered "unsafe", junk, etc., and prices were a reflection of this.

[BrentD]

Ray, it does seem to be a sudden re-fad. Mine is a sporter.

Here is just one discussion of the issue with modern Lyman 311 series moulds. There are many other such threads. This one provides a very good alternative.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... Noe-311284

[2ndovc]

Great rifles and a pleasure to shoot with cast bullets. I've had mine for about 20 years and it's still one of my favorite rifles to take to the range for a pleasant afternoon. I was going to take it and one of my Enfields to the Vintage rifle matches at Camp Perry this year but a new job and a crazy schedule got in the way. Hopefully next summer!

jb

[Streetstar]

That's a beauty!

[Ysabel Kid]

Very, very cool!

[Shasta]

Hey Guys,

I'm dredging up this old thread to update those of you who were interested.

This old Springfield 1898 rifle had a new Criterion barrel installed before I bought it:

http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/3040-krag

I slugged the barrel and the bore is .3085", perfect for shooting cast lead bullets!
I have experimented with at least a half dozen cast lead bullets from 161-204 grains, and the rifle does pretty well with all, especially with any weighing over 170 grains. One of the first bullets I tried was the Lyman 311299, a long-nosed bullet that weighed between 192-202 grains depending on alloy hardness. The rifle likes this one; here is a target shot at 50 yards with 20.0 grains IMR 4198 at a velocity of 1,578 fps:




There was no bore leading, so I felt that I probably should boost velocity if I wanted to take down the 500 meter Ram silhouette targets that weigh 50+ pounds, so I upped the powder charge to 23.0 grains IMR 4198 which gave a velocity of 1,800 fps right on the nose. It still shot a very respectable five-shot group at fifty yards:



Today I made the 66 mile trip to the rifle range, and thanks to excellent spotting by a friend I was able to quickly get on the 500 meter Ram silhouette targets with the cast lead bullets. Alas, despite repeated hits, the Rams would not go down!
In case that should happen, I took along some 180 grain Remington jacketed bullet reloads I had for my other .30-40 Krag rifle, a Browning Model 1895. Even these loads took two hits to topple a Ram, which surprised me as they had always taken down the Rams when fired in the 1895.
I have a partial box of Sierra 220 grain .30 caliber round nose jacketed bullets in my stash, so I think I will give them a try on those pesky Rams. That oughtta do it!

SHASTA

[wolfdog]

Good shooting! My Norwegian Krag shot good, but not that good.

[Sixgun]

As usual, I can relate to the Krag.......with cast bullets. This baby was found in a cubby hole in an old house and was nickel plated as the previous owner made it into a parade gun.......hid it.......and forgot about it for a hundred years or so........a coworker found it and as I have the rep as a gun guy, he came to me. The outside was mostly rust but the innards were perfect.

One of my best shooting bolt guns.

Load development was very easy.......First load I used was a winner...21 grains of 5744 with a Lyman 311284 gas check sized to .311 for 1600+.

No issues whatsoever out to 500 meters. I lucked out with a perfect .309 groove diameter where most Krags slug out at .310-.312.

Can I have your gun? This way my Krag can have a pal while resting in the safe. Please? ---6

[firefuzz]

Shasta that is a fine rifle. You mentioned a new barrel....was it an original Krag barrel or commercial?



I snagged this fine little carbine, it's either a DCM or Bannerman's...not an original, several years ago and it quickly became one of my favorite "handy" rifles. I haven't gotten to play with cast bullets in it yet, got a 200gr RCBS mold just waiting tho, but it's deadly with the old Remington 180gr Bronze Point bullets.

Rob

[BrentD]

Your experience with the Krag on the rams is interesting. I am going to take my "new" Krag out of silhouettes with cast bullets this summer. I'm planning on fairly light loads in the neighborhood of 20-22 grs of 5744 and the same 220 grs 311299 bullet. I am not anticipating much difficulty in downing them. I was shoot a friend's Krag at Raton last summer with 170 and 200 gr bullets that were in very mild loads and rams went down every time. I think some ranges have targets that must be out of regulation or something because I hear about CAL shooters that can't knock down rams with really pretty reasonable lever gun loads and yet, I've never had a well-hit lever gun target fail to fall at the ranges I shoot at. Range to range variation in target tippability must be pretty substantial I think.

[Shasta]

Can I have your gun? This way my Krag can have a pal while resting in the safe. Please? ---6



You a funny man!


SHASTA

[Shasta]

firefuzz- The replacement barrel is a Criterion:

http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/3040-krag


SHASTA

[Shasta]

BrentD- The Ram targets at our range were professionally made to NRA specs and are in excellent shape. Nice and flat with no pock marks. The stands are made of 4" channel iron that is also in good shape. There was no wind blowing yesterday when I tested the cast lead loads. I can't help but wonder if maybe my bullets are too brittle and shatter on the target? I think I should cast up some softer ones and see if it helps. One of my fellow shooters says a slower, softer bullet has more "dwell time" to exert force on the target. Interesting thought, no?

SHASTA

[moodyholler]

My Krag was rears enabled forWW1 and wear a RIA 12-1918 barrel and I shoot an old Ideal 311299 sized to .311 with 4198 at 1800 fops. Very pleasant and accurate, also have a Redfield 75K no drill receiver sight installed. Factory 1903 front sight is in place. Later, moodyholler

[BrentD]

Shasta,
I don't really believe in "dwell time" - it was all the rage in BPCR 8-10 yrs ago. But if ever there was a set up to test it, I believe your rifle would be the one. I'd be interested to hear how it takes down rams (or not) with some 25:1.

I'm casting straight "linotype" for lack of a better analysis. whatever it is, it is at least as hard as 16:1 and somewhat brittle. I'll see how it does on the "extra long" rams in St. Louis in late May.

moody- I am not familiar with that mount you mention, but I would like to see a few photos of it and how it attaches.

I added a Pacific receiver sight that mounts w/o any new holes in the magazine cutoff.

This is my rifle. The photos aren't very good, but this is all I have right now.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =450047625.

I know next to nothing about Krags (or any other bolt rifle) so don't hold back with suggestions if you have any.

[Griff]

BrentD, very nice sporter. You're a lucky man.

I don't necessarily believe in "dwell" time as it relates to hard or soft bullets... but a bullet that holds together definitely transfers MORE of it's energy than one that shatters.

[Old Ironsights]

Very very cool.

And to think TPTB are focused on evil-black gas guns...

Something says the better watch out for Krags in the rocks...

[Shasta]

Update-

I cast some softer Lyman 311299 and Lyman 311284 bullets using approximately 20:1 alloy; 311299 bullet finish weight was 204 grains, 311284 finish weight was 214 grains. Bench testing on the 500 meter Ram targets, I got just one to fall with a single shot. It was the 311284 bullet striking about four inches above dead center. The 311299 bullet required several hits to topple a Ram:



I'm going to try some even softer bullets next. I'll let you know how they work.

Oh yeah, I also tried the 220 grain jacketed bullets; BANG! FLOP! Worked first time every time!
Too bad they are so expensive! If I can't get the cast bullets to take a Ram reliably, I'll just have to go with the big jacketed bullets for Rams and use cast for everything else.


SHASTA

[Shasta]

Another update-

I tried the Ram targets with some Lyman 311299 and Lyman 311284 cast at 30:1, which is about as soft as I think I can go without leading up the bore. So much for the "dwell time" theory- those rams still took an average of three hits to topple over.
I think it must be the cold, dense winter air holding them up. Yeah, that's the problem. Cold air!

The good news is that I was able to purchase a couple hundred new Remington .30-40 Krag brass from Buffalo Arms, the only vendor I found to actually have any in stock!


SHASTA

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Another Krag shooter. That is one nice Krag you have. Many of the post Spanish War Krags were well stored in arsenals and only some used by home guard units on rail bridges. Thus the later Krag stocks are beautiful.
Origonal barrels are all over the diameter spectrum. I have one "sporterized" that will shoot .316 diameter the best. Three other prefer .314 diameter. Then one lone "sporterized" carbine that will shoot .312.
Years back when Danville Rifle and Pistol Club was in use of the old NG Range we had 500 yards. At that time I was using a caliber 30-06 to wack steel critters with. At 2200 fps I found bullets like the 311284 GC and 311335 GCSP cast of 50-50 (WW- range lead +2% tin) worked about as good as any cast at the 500m rams. Our stands were checked often for level. Any stand that has a slight forward tilt will near defy permitting a ram to go over with cast. On the other hand stands set with a slight rear tilt will fall much easier. So give 50-50 a try. The tin will reduce the brittle factor and the cast will not shatter. This is my basic hunting mix also. Will not shatter on shoulder joints unless pushed beyond reason. 2200 fps has never failed me. But then I hunt river bottoms and woods so ranges are always close.
Mike in Peru