380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
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380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Had a little time, so I whipped up a batch of gelatin to shoot some various 380 rounds into for a comparison. My choices were limited to a factory load of a 90 gr. Corbon JHP, a handloaded Remington 102 gr. Golden Sabre, and a handloaded cast bullet from the Ranch Dog mold that weighs 103 gr. cast from clip on wheelweights and air cooled, and powder coated, nothing fancy.
I covered the 6x6x12 inch block of gel with a single layer of an old moving blanket, it's a fairly thick material that's sort of like flannel or felt, only substantially thicker. That should simulate a jacket and shirt fairly closely.
I had set up my chrono to capture velocitys, but the sun was at a low angle and I didn't get consistent readings, so I won't include them here now, but I will reshoot for speed at a later time. I can say that the Corbon load is hot, and I loaded both of mine to max book data with Unique. I shot the block from a distance of about 6 feet.
First up was the Ranch Dog cast bullet. It had no trouble fully penetrating the entire block and both layers of the blanket (front and back of the block). It then punched into about a half inch of the dry phone book I had backing the gel block, and bounced back through the blanket again into the block headed the opposite direction!
The Corbon and the Golden Sabre were both retained inside the gel, and penetrated to a depth of 8" and 9" respectively.
Not surprisingly, the cast bullet plowed a straight line, with a fairly small wound channel that was pretty much the same the length of the block.
The Golden Sabre, and the Corbon JHP both appeared to rapidly expand, and violently. The Golden Sabre shown in the middle, had a somewhat larger wound cavity than the Corbon, and it shed some lead fragments around the 2-3 inch mark.
As expected, the cast bullet retained all it's original weight.
The Golden Sabre lost the largest percentage of weight, but still very acceptable 95.6 gr. from the original 102.
The 90 gr. Corbon also held on to most of it's weight, only loosing 0.6 gr.
The cast bullet riveted a tad, growing to .375"
The Golden Sabre had the most expansion, which goes along with the largest wound cavity.
The Corbon was right behind the Remington bullet though with good expansion to .645"
So there you have it, you can take it for what it's worth. I'd like to include a few more bullets in the testing later on, but this at least gives me an idea as to the 380's performance, or lack of, depending on your opinion of the 380 as a defensive round. This isn't scientific by any means, I just enjoy playing around with it and hope you enjoyed reading it.
I covered the 6x6x12 inch block of gel with a single layer of an old moving blanket, it's a fairly thick material that's sort of like flannel or felt, only substantially thicker. That should simulate a jacket and shirt fairly closely.
I had set up my chrono to capture velocitys, but the sun was at a low angle and I didn't get consistent readings, so I won't include them here now, but I will reshoot for speed at a later time. I can say that the Corbon load is hot, and I loaded both of mine to max book data with Unique. I shot the block from a distance of about 6 feet.
First up was the Ranch Dog cast bullet. It had no trouble fully penetrating the entire block and both layers of the blanket (front and back of the block). It then punched into about a half inch of the dry phone book I had backing the gel block, and bounced back through the blanket again into the block headed the opposite direction!
The Corbon and the Golden Sabre were both retained inside the gel, and penetrated to a depth of 8" and 9" respectively.
Not surprisingly, the cast bullet plowed a straight line, with a fairly small wound channel that was pretty much the same the length of the block.
The Golden Sabre, and the Corbon JHP both appeared to rapidly expand, and violently. The Golden Sabre shown in the middle, had a somewhat larger wound cavity than the Corbon, and it shed some lead fragments around the 2-3 inch mark.
As expected, the cast bullet retained all it's original weight.
The Golden Sabre lost the largest percentage of weight, but still very acceptable 95.6 gr. from the original 102.
The 90 gr. Corbon also held on to most of it's weight, only loosing 0.6 gr.
The cast bullet riveted a tad, growing to .375"
The Golden Sabre had the most expansion, which goes along with the largest wound cavity.
The Corbon was right behind the Remington bullet though with good expansion to .645"
So there you have it, you can take it for what it's worth. I'd like to include a few more bullets in the testing later on, but this at least gives me an idea as to the 380's performance, or lack of, depending on your opinion of the 380 as a defensive round. This isn't scientific by any means, I just enjoy playing around with it and hope you enjoyed reading it.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Head shots.
Of course, lack of penetration is exactly why the FRG Polezi gave up their .32s and went to 9mm...
(Love that Walther BTW...)
Of course, lack of penetration is exactly why the FRG Polezi gave up their .32s and went to 9mm...
(Love that Walther BTW...)
Last edited by Old Ironsights on Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Thanks, Ted. Interesting.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Thanks very interesting
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I have that same pistol so I am all ears as to all testing and results and thoughts and opinions.
Cheers,
Carl
Cheers,
Carl
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Good post Ted. I have always pretty much ignored the .380. The talk of it on here lately has really caught my attention. Keep it coming.
Thanks, Kevin
Thanks, Kevin
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Ted-- really like your Walther PPK too (owned one years ago)...very cool test and info...but for me the .380acp (.9mm short/Kurtz) is a little on the light side for self defense, especially if winter clothing is encountered...I feel the same about 5-shot J-frame revolver types...but that's just my lousy cranky back-east opinion... :)
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Thank you for taking the time.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I enjoyed your post, here in the UK I can only read about modern handguns....
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Or get very good at hiding them...game keeper wrote:I enjoyed your post, here in the UK I can only read about modern handguns....
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Good post Ted.
I've only recently been understanding calibrating the gel to make each test truly comparable. Have you looked into that? I understand it isn't too hard but involves a couple more steps. Calibrated tests have the BB shown in the pictures. When properly set up and used at the correct temps, the gel will take a bb at a prescribed velocity and it will penetrate a certain depth range, ensuring the test will be directly comparable to other gel tests as to penetration depths and bullet performance.
I've only recently been understanding calibrating the gel to make each test truly comparable. Have you looked into that? I understand it isn't too hard but involves a couple more steps. Calibrated tests have the BB shown in the pictures. When properly set up and used at the correct temps, the gel will take a bb at a prescribed velocity and it will penetrate a certain depth range, ensuring the test will be directly comparable to other gel tests as to penetration depths and bullet performance.
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Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I have read about calibrating the gel but I've not gone to the trouble. I mix it by weight, the same every time and keep it at the same temperature, so that's close enough for me.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Ted, I've been reading a lot about the powder coating and was wondering, do you know how those bullets would do if they were cast from very soft lead? I don't think I've seen that addressed.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Thanks for posting Ted, I find it very helpful. I have a .32NAA, which is a .380 necked down to .32, makes for a nice summer carry and back up to my .45 ACP.
Please keep posting.
Steve
Please keep posting.
Steve
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Very good idea, I was thinking the powder coat would act like a jacket.Rusty wrote:Ted, I've been reading a lot about the powder coating and was wondering, do you know how those bullets would do if they were cast from very soft lead? I don't think I've seen that addressed.
Steve
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
SteveR,
Have you done simular tests with your .32 NAA?
I have a Llama parts gun with a piece of extra slide, I am going to do a longslide Llama in .32 NAA.
Have you done simular tests with your .32 NAA?
I have a Llama parts gun with a piece of extra slide, I am going to do a longslide Llama in .32 NAA.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
plenty of penetration with the cast. that's so useful and interesting. it makes the cast load the only option for wife's gun.
I'd love to see the comparison to the 147 gr fmjfp she carries, would you like me to send a few?
In my waterjug tests, not the same thing BUT able to compare like to like, the load we use penetrated to about the same place as the 9mm gold dots we carry. I'm curious about the gel comparison. Looks like you could use a 2-block train for that one.
Grizz
I'd love to see the comparison to the 147 gr fmjfp she carries, would you like me to send a few?
In my waterjug tests, not the same thing BUT able to compare like to like, the load we use penetrated to about the same place as the 9mm gold dots we carry. I'm curious about the gel comparison. Looks like you could use a 2-block train for that one.
Grizz
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
No, but it would be interesting to see the results.Mescalero wrote:SteveR,
Have you done simular tests with your .32 NAA?
I have a Llama parts gun with a piece of extra slide, I am going to do a longslide Llama in .32 NAA.
I would love to see how that shoots with the longer barrel. I have the NAA with the short barrel, I bet yours would run upwards of 2000 fps, with the 60gr Hornady XTP.
Steve
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I don't think that fast, but what I was looking for is the consistency of shooting from a locked link design.
My model is an older one with a real link, no rib on top of the slide.
My model is an older one with a real link, no rib on top of the slide.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I haven't cast these 380 bullets from anything but wheelweights. I have played quite a bit with 45acp cast hollow points with various alloys trying to find a good balance between expansion and penetration, along with varying the depth of the hollow point. From what I've seen I think you could push powder coated soft lead as fast as you wanted to from a pistol cartridge.Rusty wrote:Ted, I've been reading a lot about the powder coating and was wondering, do you know how those bullets would do if they were cast from very soft lead? I don't think I've seen that addressed.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I was thinking that a soft lead bullet covered with powdercoat would be about as close as you could get to the old Nyclad rounds and they were said to be excellent stoppers.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
That's what I was after with the 45acp hollow points. I thought the flat nose design of these 380 bullets would be better hard, but it might be worth a try to cast some soft and see what they do.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Great report and tests. Did Imiss which one you would prefer for carrying? Seeing that Walther reminds of all the gunshows back in 70's when I was young and broke.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Great information!
I don't have to worry about the performance of 380 relative to other options... I have enough 380 ammo to last the rest of my life, and a Colt Pony Pcketlite. I don't sell Colts, so I will use this little gem whenever it is appropriate, not matter what might be better for self defense.
I don't have to worry about the performance of 380 relative to other options... I have enough 380 ammo to last the rest of my life, and a Colt Pony Pcketlite. I don't sell Colts, so I will use this little gem whenever it is appropriate, not matter what might be better for self defense.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I think this small demonstration shows what a lot of people already say, the 380 is about as small a caliber as I'd be comfortable with for defense against a ner-do-well. That being said, I'm still going to carry my 45 when practical, but when I'm carrying the 380 I would be fine with any of those loads, but I favor the Golden Sabre just because of the heavier starting weight and the impressive wound cavity. I know some folks like more penetration, but let's face it, most of us are not cops on the street. My loads don't necessarily have to pass the FBI standard. If and when I need my gun, I probably won't be needing to shoot through a car door or a sheet rock wall. More than likely is going to be up close and personal, with a good chance of bystanders around, or I'll be inside my dwelling. Neither of which would I want a bullet that's like the energizer bunny and just keeps going and going. If I can ever get a hold of some Speer Gold Dots I will certainly try them too. They have become the standard to which all others are compared, imo.3leggedturtle wrote:Great report and tests. Did Imiss which one you would prefer for carrying? Seeing that Walther reminds of all the gunshows back in 70's when I was young and broke.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Thank you for taking the time and energy to do this.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Thanks for the write and test. Really enjoyed reading it.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Interesting post. I would love to see what you get from a much softer lead bullet though. Something like 20:1 or 30:1 lead:tin mix.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Can I send you a few of the Win white box flat points? I've seen them in meat but I'd like to see them in the same conditions as your other tests.
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Ted, Thanks for posting. I to have switched from 1911 to a S&W J frame in warmer weather. In CT you have to worry about upsetting the sheeple, so concealed is important to me.
Goes to show while maybe not ideal these are much better than a sharp stick.
Goes to show while maybe not ideal these are much better than a sharp stick.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Sure. I'm trying to get some Gold Dots to try and I'll also cast some of the lead bullets softer for the next round.Tycer wrote:Can I send you a few of the Win white box flat points? I've seen them in meat but I'd like to see them in the same conditions as your other tests.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I look forward to hearing about those soft lead bullets. I've got a .380 that would be better off with lead than with the modern bullet I think.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Great info. I would be curious to see how a .38 spc snubnose compares to the .380.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Substantially better. Heavier bullet running faster. The meat tests I've done give the 38 much better penetration with hollowpoints and cast.horsesoldier03 wrote:Great info. I would be curious to see how a .38 spc snubnose compares to the .380.
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Thanks for the data and pictures, which are quite impressive. I've never heard of powder coating lead bullets, however.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Tycer,
What gun were you shooting .380 out of?
What gun were you shooting .380 out of?
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Uncle Buck, if you look over on the castboolits forums you see more about powder coating than you can read in a week.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
.
Very interesting, Ted - thanks for posting your report.
It's especially relevant to me, since I yesterday bought a pristine Browning Model 1955 .380 pocket pistol from a local funshop, that I want to CCW in deep cover, since it's so nice & thin.
.
Very interesting, Ted - thanks for posting your report.
It's especially relevant to me, since I yesterday bought a pristine Browning Model 1955 .380 pocket pistol from a local funshop, that I want to CCW in deep cover, since it's so nice & thin.
.
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
that Browning looks a lot like my old Remington 51
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
P3AT and either a snub Smith 36 or 60 for the 38s. I've had really great luck with this little piece of plastic and metal P3AT. The only FTFs I've ever had were with reloads and those were either bulged or over crimped.Mescalero wrote:Tycer,
What gun were you shooting .380 out of?
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
I am not familiar with that gun, what type of action?
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Now that is one sweet 380!Pete44ru wrote:.
Very interesting, Ted - thanks for posting your report.
It's especially relevant to me, since I yesterday bought a pristine Browning Model 1955 .380 pocket pistol from a local funshop, that I want to CCW in deep cover, since it's so nice & thin.
.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
My friend Keith had one of those when we were young, there is an interesting quirk to these actions.
I have to think about it for a while.
Not suitable subject matter for open debate.
I have to think about it for a while.
Not suitable subject matter for open debate.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Pete, that Browning is absolutely immaculate. Nice find!
Ted, really looking forward to your results with powder-coated soft-cast boolits.
I have to try this powder coating thing ...
Ted, really looking forward to your results with powder-coated soft-cast boolits.
I have to try this powder coating thing ...
Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Finally got around to trying soft lead bullets. I cast them from stick on wheel weights, and powder coated them like the others. Same power and charge weight as before too. I thought before I bothered with mixing up a batch of gel, I'd check and make sure the accuracy was acceptable. I'm not too demanding of the smallish gun, but want to make sure a center mass hit was likely at 25 yards. A fired 5 rounds from a sandbag rest at 25 yards. There was 1 hole in the target, not just the 8x11 paper, the entire backing cardboard piece that was about 3'x4'.BrentD wrote:I look forward to hearing about those soft lead bullets. I've got a .380 that would be better off with lead than with the modern bullet I think.
Since the first part of this report, that Walther was sold and replaced with a G42. While the little Glock shoots harder clip on wheel weight bullets quite well, apparently the polygonal rifling is not compatable with the very soft lead.
So that idea of soft lead is obviously scrapped for me.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
Wow....Not in any way doubting your reporting, but that just don't sound right.....Were there signs leading in the rifling? Do you think that making them oversized would help?TedH wrote:Finally got around to trying soft lead bullets. I cast them from stick on wheel weights, and powder coated them like the others. Same power and charge weight as before too. I thought before I bothered with mixing up a batch of gel, I'd check and make sure the accuracy was acceptable. I'm not too demanding of the smallish gun, but want to make sure a center mass hit was likely at 25 yards. A fired 5 rounds from a sandbag rest at 25 yards. There was 1 hole in the target, not just the 8x11 paper, the entire backing cardboard piece that was about 3'x4'.BrentD wrote:I look forward to hearing about those soft lead bullets. I've got a .380 that would be better off with lead than with the modern bullet I think.
Since the first part of this report, that Walther was sold and replaced with a G42. While the little Glock shoots harder clip on wheel weight bullets quite well, apparently the polygonal rifling is not compatable with the very soft lead.
So that idea of soft lead is obviously scrapped for me.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
[/quote]Sure. I'm trying to get some Gold Dots to try and I'll also cast some of the lead bullets softer for the next round.[/quote]
I have a few boxes of Gold Dot .380 from when they were issue in the safe how many do you need to test.
I have a few boxes of Gold Dot .380 from when they were issue in the safe how many do you need to test.
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Re: 380 ACP Bullet Gel Test- pic heavy
No trace of lead. I had just cleaned the barrel before shooting those 5. I'm pretty dumbfounded myself. It may help to make them a little larger, but my mold drops them at .357", and I was only sizing to .356", so I don't think .001" will make that much difference.BlaineG wrote:Wow....Not in any way doubting your reporting, but that just don't sound right.....Were there signs leading in the rifling? Do you think that making them oversized would help?TedH wrote:Finally got around to trying soft lead bullets. I cast them from stick on wheel weights, and powder coated them like the others. Same power and charge weight as before too. I thought before I bothered with mixing up a batch of gel, I'd check and make sure the accuracy was acceptable. I'm not too demanding of the smallish gun, but want to make sure a center mass hit was likely at 25 yards. A fired 5 rounds from a sandbag rest at 25 yards. There was 1 hole in the target, not just the 8x11 paper, the entire backing cardboard piece that was about 3'x4'.BrentD wrote:I look forward to hearing about those soft lead bullets. I've got a .380 that would be better off with lead than with the modern bullet I think.
Since the first part of this report, that Walther was sold and replaced with a G42. While the little Glock shoots harder clip on wheel weight bullets quite well, apparently the polygonal rifling is not compatable with the very soft lead.
So that idea of soft lead is obviously scrapped for me.
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