Why didn't the '95 sell better?

[tman]

When winchester came out with the .307, It kinda bridged the ballistic gap between early 06 loadings and the 30WCF. UN fortunatley, nobody liked it and it went away

The .307 begged the question, "Why?"

But I still want one. I just haven't wanted one bad enough to pay the price I've seen them for.
Got a box of ammo in the closet just waiting........

I was drawn to the 95 late. I currently have the 35 Whelen and 405 Win. Sold my .30'06 and 30/40. Those last two rounds are more appealing to me in a bolt gun. But if I find a nice 30/40 military carbine I probably won't be able to resist Or the holy grail, a Russian musket.

"Why?" double the range of the 30-30 in the same gun. Gotta be a 94 freak to appreciate it, I guess

[7.62 Precision]

plus sling swivels-on the front a barrel band swivel.

You might consider putting the swivels on the side.

[vancelw]

When winchester came out with the .307, It kinda bridged the ballistic gap between early 06 loadings and the 30WCF. UN fortunatley, nobody liked it and it went away

The .307 begged the question, "Why?"

.

"Why?" double the range of the 30-30 in the same gun. Gotta be a 94 freak to appreciate it, I guess

Double? Not hardly.

With open sights, I keep all my hunting shots under 200 yards any way...so the .30-30, 38-55, 348, 405, 45-70 etc (you get the idea) all work just as well. And I have a .308 bolt, which has more case capacity than the .307 and is not limited to FN bullets. The only levers I limit to 150 yards for hunting are my 44 mag, 45 Colt, .32-20.

Using Winchester's Ammo ap, with all three sighted dead on at 200

.30-30 is 6.14" low at 250
.307 is 5.04 low at 250
.308 is 3.87 low at 250

Someday I'll stumble upon a .307 I can afford and buy it...but it won't be because I NEED it.

[7.62 Precision]

I think the why was to try to capitalize on the popularity of the .308.

They got a bit more velocity, but velocity isn't everything. They might have done better if they had the Hornady flex-tip bullets back then.

On the other hand, not everyone who buys a .30-30 wants it to be a .308.

[vancelw]

I think the why was to try to capitalize on the popularity of the .308.

They got a bit more velocity, but velocity isn't everything. They might have done better if they had the Hornady flex-tip bullets back then.

On the other hand, not everyone who buys a .30-30 wants it to be a .308.

But if the magical FTX bullet had existed, the .30-30 would have outperformed them all

[Nate C.]

One of my "Really Want" guns is a 95 "Russian" in 7.62x54R. What's not to love?

Amen! Been looking for years, apparently in all the wrong places. Wish somebody would offer a reproduction in this caliber.

[7.62 Precision]

Me too, but it seems like most of the ones that made it back to the states got sporterized.

Maybe eventually I will try to find one overseas and import it.

[BenT]

Me too, but it seems like most of the ones that made it back to the states got sporterized.

Maybe eventually I will try to find one overseas and import it.

I came across one last spring for $800 that was sporterized . It had lost it's charm, it wasn't appealing.

[Old Ironsights]

Me too, but it seems like most of the ones that made it back to the states got sporterized.

Maybe eventually I will try to find one overseas and import it.

FWIU there are tons still in Arsenal storage.

But Vlad isn't letting go of them.

[Grizz]

One of my "Really Want" guns is a 95 "Russian" in 7.62x54R. What's not to love?

Amen! Been looking for years, apparently in all the wrong places. Wish somebody would offer a reproduction in this caliber.

I found one !

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/9482774

Too late, sorry.

[Malamute]

With open sights, I keep all my hunting shots under 200 yards any way...so the .30-30, 38-55, 348, 405, 45-70 etc (you get the idea) all work just as well. And I have a .308 bolt, which has more case capacity than the .307 and is not limited to FN bullets. Using Winchester's Ammo ap, with all three sighted dead on at 200

.30-30 is 6.14" low at 250
.307 is 5.04 low at 250
.308 is 3.87 low at 250

Someday I'll stumble upon a .307 I can afford and buy it...but it won't be because I NEED it.

What bullet weights in each?

One reason the 307 would be appealing to me is longer range. Not just trajectory, but bullet performance as the range increases. Even at closer ranges, it will hit harder. Perhaps not everyone has the same experience, but the deer I've shot with the '06 have gone down harder and faster than the ones shot with a 30-30 ( I havent shot deer or other game with a 307, but those that have say it downs game faster/harder than the 30-30). The "placement" argument always comes up in these discussions, but given similar hits, the harder hits still seem to put them down harder/faster, given less then perfect hits, even more so. I'm not able to make perfect hits under all circumstances, but know that a certain amount of power will still put deer and other animals down with shots I wouldn't take with a lighter caliber.

One thing about the 307 that would appeal to me, its an angle eject, and I'd scope it, no question. I'd still like an angle eject 30-30, but the 307 would be a better general purpose hunting gun that covers more ground for longer distances and larger game reliably.

I admit I haven't shot much game with a 30-30, partly because I've mainly shot game with an '06. The difference was very noticeable though, and doesn't make me want to shoot game with a 30-30 if I have an '06 around. Heresy to some. Just my opinion and experience.

[Malamute]

Was looking for this, finally found it. It doesn't answer all the questions, but I think that's been gone over fairly well in the thread. I think the model 71 had some bearing on the sales of the 95, as well as the things mentioned in the article. The much lower cost of the 94 carbines undoubtedly had a major bearing.

Dang, it wont load as a bitmap file. I don't know how to change that. Its an article from 1945 describing the reasons the 95 was discontinued. It was written by Edwin Pugsley of Winchester.

[vancelw]

Dang, it wont load as a bitmap file. I don't know how to change that.

Open it with Microsoft Office picture manager and export it as jpg. Or mspaint.

[Malamute]

I don't see anything about Office in my computer. Never used it that I know of.

I don't understand exporting, or what paint can do to change it. I looked but didn't see any way to convert it to a jpeg file.

I'm not a Luddite, but could play one on TV convincingly.

[vancelw]

Okay, let's see if Malamute's article is legible after I enlarged it. If not, I can transcribe it later.

win 95 discontinued.jpg

Seems like myths sometimes have basis in truth.

[vancelw]

Blown 95 w 8x57.jpg

More W95 vs 8x57.jpg

More articles Malamute found...Thanks

Looks like the Kaiser is to blame for the demise of the Winchester 95.
Servicemen were bringing home 8mm Mausers and their ammunition.
I guess an 8x57 Mauser cartridge will chamber in the .30-'06 Winchester 95. But, like the article says, .323 doesn't go into .308 very well.
Since they didn't know what was causing 95s to fail and sales were slow.....

[Malamute]

Thanks for posting those.

I started saving things as bitmap files after someone told me they retained better resolution than jpegs. I need to figure out how to convert them on my computer.

[Mike Armstrong]

One factor that hasn't been chewed over here much is that the '95 was conceived as a military rifle and much of the production was military or paramilitary. As "levers" has mentioned a huge part of the production went to Russia (and disappeared, only to return in places like Korea and Vietnam....) and a fair fraction of the rest went to LEAs here and abroad and to arms dealers who sold them to various Mexican factions in 1910-20.

I wouldn't say that the '95 was a success as a military arm, although it got a lot more use than the Savage '95 musket that became the '99. But it was mainly made in what were originally military calibers (.30 US/.30-40, .30-03, .30-06, .303, 7.62x54R) and that may have made a difference in consumer perception of it as a sporting rifle, compared to, say, the '94.

I would agree that it was competition with the '94 that ultimately killed the '95. As mentioned, the '94 just had so many more virtues for the average hunter, including price.

Except for the huge Russian purchase--a "one-off" phenomenon--I would even guess that more '94s ended up as military and paramilitary rifles than '95s in the end, too. LEAs were using '94s until relatively recently (when WWII weapons became widely available to them in the 1950s and '60s) and still were used by sheriffs and wardens and prison guards when I was a kid in the 1950s. And if you've looked at as many original pix of the Mexican Revolution fighting as I have, you begin to get bored with the number of '94s you see. '95s show up, but not nearly so many.

Interesting thread!

[MrMurphy]

To kick a dead horse.....


I'm guessing the Savage 99 sold for a century because it had no protruding magazine, chambered fairly powerful rounds, and didn't cost a fortune to buy.

Also being scopeable helped later....

I know the '99 was popular in Alaska and elsewhere for many years.

[2ndovc]

Me too, but it seems like most of the ones that made it back to the states got sporterized.

Maybe eventually I will try to find one overseas and import it.

FWIU there are tons still in Arsenal storage.

But Vlad isn't letting go of them.

A lot of the Russian contract '95s were sent to other countries by the Soviets for various conflicts.
Mine has a Spanish Loyalist cartouche from the Spanish Civil War.



I think the price and availability of the 95s had a lot to do with it. The Russians bought up the majority
of the production which left very little left for the commercial market that had plenty of 94s on the shelves.

I've been hunting with and collecting Model 95s for many years and I find them to no more difficult to carry or shoot than any other rifle that I own. They're just different.

jb

[7.62 Precision]

A lot of the Russian contract '95s were sent to other countries by the Soviets for various conflicts.
Mine has a Spanish Loyalist cartouche from the Spanish Civil War.

I guess quite a few ended up in Finland.

You, sir, have too much Russian guns. Is not healthy. I can help with that. Send one to me, and you will not have to much. I recommend, uhhhh . . . number five from the top. Would do nicely.

I will post a photo of my Russian gun soon - not so interesting as yours, missing a lever, just has a handle sticking out the side, but comes with a neat history.

[2ndovc]

A lot of the Russian contract '95s were sent to other countries by the Soviets for various conflicts.
Mine has a Spanish Loyalist cartouche from the Spanish Civil War.

I guess quite a few ended up in Finland.

You, sir, have too much Russian guns. Is not healthy. I can help with that. Send one to me, and you will not have to much. I recommend, uhhhh . . . number five from the top. Would do nicely.

I will post a photo of my Russian gun soon - not so interesting as yours, missing a lever, just has a handle sticking out the side, but comes with a neat history.

I'd pay a goodly price for a Finn marked 95!!

I'll have to take picture of my Dad's collection. It's 10 x what have, including three Russian contract 1911's.

jb

[2ndovc]

Number four is a Remington by the way.

jb

[7.62 Precision]

Number four is a Remington by the way.

Nice!

[2ndovc]

Number four is a Remington by the way.

Nice!

I also have a Westinghouse Model 91 but I gave it my Dad for his display. That along with a Sparkbrook No.1 MKIII
that I bought from the same guy.

jb

[tman]

Everything said, A 95 SRC in 30-06 is a blast to shoot and can kill any game on the planet, out to any reasonsable range at which game should be shot. You can find ammo anywhere ammo is sold at very reasonable prices. You don't need "custom ammo". Lots of elephants dropped to the plain jane Remington 220 grain factory ammo. For the traditional levergun lover, who also wants to hunt the worlds big game, and throw in a little history, it's hard to beat.

[Old Time Hunter]

My perspective...ran out of favor as automobiles became more prevalent.

Those people that could afford horses were the ones that eventually purchased cars. No need for a levergun that fit into a scabbard. The '95 was chambered for longer distance hunting cartridges so it competed against the bolt guns, the '94 was by then the sportsman's rifle of choice in the woods, where you walked.

[7.62 Precision]

Everything said, A 95 SRC in 30-06 is a blast to shoot and can kill any game on the planet, out to any reasonsable range at which game should be shot.

I kind of like all of the '95 configurations, but I think the carbines are the nicest to carry and shoot.

[Blackhawk]

As far as the '95 I have always wanted one. The carbine fits me well.

As far as the 307, I agree that it fills the gap between the 30 WCF and the bigger calibers. I can push a 130grfn at 2950fps. I dont reload my 30 WCF's but I dont think they can get close to that. Maybe the 30/30AI.

[tman]

As far as the '95 I have always wanted one. The carbine fits me well.

As far as the 307, I agree that it fills the gap between the 30 WCF and the bigger calibers. I can push a 130grfn at 2950fps. I dont reload my 30 WCF's but I dont think they can get close to that. Maybe the 30/30AI.

Yes, the .307 duplicates 300 savage ballistics. The 300 savage introduced in 1920, closely duplicated THEN 30-06 ballistics. Had hornaday loaded a 307 with a 180 grain gummy point and superformance powders, the 308 Marlin would have been unnecessary.

[7.62 Precision]

Had hornaday loaded a 307 with a 180 grain gummy point and superformance powders, the 308 Marlin would have been unnecessary.

You mean it would have been ALREADY. Since the .308 Marlin is little more than a .307 with a poingy tip.

But a NEW cartridge with a NEW (sort of) rifle and an 8 at the end of the name is so much sexier, for marketing purposes. And it is marketing that uses "new" cartridges that mirror old ones to cause shooters to run out and buy new rifles. And ammo. And reloading supplies. And slings and optics and scope rings and . . .

[Old Savage]

I never bought one because it seemed clumsy to handle.