Accurate .38 Special lever gun loads ???

[Alphawolf45]

In order to get started in pistol cartridge silhouette matches next year I have ordered a Rossi levergun in .38/.357 ..I reload but I have no experience trying for an accurate levergun load.. Bullet length is limited by what will feed through the action.. Is it possible to find a bullet that will crimp properly and yet have an overall length that will have the lead started into the rifling?

I need to buy a bullet mold quick but I hate the prospect of buying and trying a whole series of bullets till I find the one that works best. Recommendations would be appreciated....And should I be using .38 Special brass or .357 Mag brass?....What powder? .......

Thanks....Oh yeah, some of you know that I coulda scratch built the rifle instead of buying one but buying is SO EASY, felt purty good for a change..

[w30wcf]

What shoots very well in my Marlin Cowboy .357, is the Lyman 357665 and 11/4759 which is pretty much a capacity load in .357 Magnum brass.
Other loads that do almost as well ....5.0 / Titegroup or 6.0 / 231.


Have fun!
w30wcf

[Alphawolf45]

What shoots very well in my Marlin Cowboy .357, is the Lyman 357665 and 11/4759 which is pretty much a capacity load in .357 Magnum brass.
Other loads that do almost as well ....5.0 / Titegroup or 6.0 / 231.


Have fun!
w30wcf

Thanks w30wcf . I have 'nuff Titegroup for 'bout a 1000 rounds so I'll try it first.. And about that mold-- I don't find 357665 but find 358665 Lymans..Reckon that one is good for start?.. And again- which brass should I be using .38 Special or .357 magnums? You are using the magnum brass with that Lyman bullet?? I have a bucket load of 38 special brass but none 357 magnums but I'll buy what I need.
Thanks again.

[3leggedturtle]

AW45; Nothing I have shot out of my Puma 357 has not been not accurate. Have used Unique, 2400, HS7 Blu Dot and red Dot with with everything from 125-180gr bullets in 38 and 357 brass, from 600-1700fps. Tho I did learn 3grs of Unique and a 148gr WC doesnt like like to make it out of the barrel every so often.

[Alphawolf45]

AW45; Nothing I have shot out of my Puma 357 has not been not accurate. Have used Unique, 2400, HS7 Blu Dot and red Dot with with everything from 125-180gr bullets in 38 and 357 brass, from 600-1700fps. Tho I did learn 3grs of Unique and a 148gr WC doesnt like like to make it out of the barrel every so often.

Hmmm By accurate what are we talking? 3 inchs at 100 yards or better? .Far as I know 3 inchs @ 100 yards is good enough for the pistol cartridge silhouette matches but That don't sound too good, I have to have tighter by half groups for my rifle used in black powder cartridge rifle silhouette that I presently compete in.....That's what I am reading-many guys getting no better than 3 inch 100 yard groups with their .38/.357 magnum lever rifles. What is considered good for .38 Special in a lever gun?

[Chuck 100 yd]

Alphawolf45 , Yes, most shooters are happy with 3" @100yd. and consider that accurate.
The .38/ .357 is not a bench rest cartridge and if you can get inside of 2" with it at 100 yd. you are doing just super.

[Alphawolf45]

Alphawolf45 , Yes, most shooters are happy with 3" @100yd. and consider that accurate.
The .38/ .357 is not a bench rest cartridge and if you can get inside of 2" with it at 100 yd. you are doing just super.

Thank you very much Chuck . I did not know that. Now let me hope to do that well...Reckon 3 inchs is difficult to achieve? Uhmmmm ..Wow , there is so much I don't know. .I appreciate the help....Note I don't even aspire to ever win a match. .I just hope to avoid humiliation.. I will enjoy it if I just show up and learn something.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Not saying it cant be done easily but we hear so many stories about just how great such and such lever shoots. Well the guys who shoot 4+" groups just don`t come on forums and brag very much and lots of those guys who do forgot those poor groups and only remember those tight ones. I`m happy with a levergun that will keep 99% of it`s shots under 2" at a hundred yards with any sight.

[AJMD429]

Not saying it cant be done easily but we hear so many stories about just how great such and such lever shoots. Well the guys who shoot 4+" groups just don`t come on forums and brag very much and lots of those guys who do forgot those poor groups and only remember those tight ones. I`m happy with a levergun that will keep 99% of it`s shots under 2" at a hundred yards with any sight.

Absolutely.

[Old Ironsights]

AW45; Nothing I have shot out of my Puma 357 has not been not accurate. Have used Unique, 2400, HS7 Blu Dot and red Dot with with everything from 125-180gr bullets in 38 and 357 brass, from 600-1700fps. Tho I did learn 3grs of Unique and a 148gr WC doesnt like like to make it out of the barrel every so often.

This.

[Old Ironsights]

Alphawolf45 , Yes, most shooters are happy with 3" @100yd. and consider that accurate.
The .38/ .357 is not a bench rest cartridge and if you can get inside of 2" with it at 100 yd. you are doing just super.

That's minute of critter - even 'yote - and that's all that really matters for a saddle gun... right?

[Alphawolf45]

Alphawolf45 , Yes, most shooters are happy with 3" @100yd. and consider that accurate.
The .38/ .357 is not a bench rest cartridge and if you can get inside of 2" with it at 100 yd. you are doing just super.

That's minute of critter - even 'yote - and that's all that really matters for a saddle gun... right?

No...Respectfully, I am needing a levergun/load that is competitive on silhouette targets.. I want the offhand misses to always be all me , not the load.. This minute of critter measure of accuracy sounds sorta loose for competition...But 'course at this stage I don't know what the other competitors in the game are achieving with their guns...But,but,but,, ,I think I have heard enough views and suggestions to get started. I'll get off here and order a mold now.

[Sixgun]

If your load is for silhouette, do not concern yourself with bullet design as you will be shooting steel. In other words, don't worry about a big flat point that is mostly used for hunting. Most likely, a standard round nose cast bullet will feed better and be more accurate. Use .357 brass as you want the bullet to be as close to the rifling as possible. Cast bullets will be much cheaper and will afford you more practice as you can shoot more to practice. Get the largest diameter that will still chamber in your rifle, most likely .358 or .359.

You will have to test the loads yourself as to weight. A 125 gr. bullet will do you better than a 150 gr. but even that will be OK.

Next in line will be velocity. Do not concern yourself with high velocity. "Match velocity" (1050-1125) will be the most accurate. Light to medium loads will be easy on you and will help you in not developing a flinch as even the most seasoned shooters will get after shooting noisy and hard kicking loads. I'm thinking 4.5 to 5 grains of Unique or 4 grains of Bullseye with a standard small pistol primer will be the best for you. It will be like shooting a .22 rimfire with about the same trajectory.

Sight in for the load to hit 3" high at 40 and 50 meters then make your adjustments for 75 and 100.

Silhouette shooters shoot a lot. I know I do.

Using slower powders to match the lighter charges of faster powders to obtain the same velocities mean more recoil, more velocity variations, and more cost. Stay with Bullseye, Unique, 231, or powders with a similar burn rate.

Happy shooting------6

[Old Ironsights]

Alphawolf45 , Yes, most shooters are happy with 3" @100yd. and consider that accurate.
The .38/ .357 is not a bench rest cartridge and if you can get inside of 2" with it at 100 yd. you are doing just super.

That's minute of critter - even 'yote - and that's all that really matters for a saddle gun... right?

No...Respectfully, I am needing a levergun/load that is competitive on silhouette targets.. I want the offhand misses to always be all me , not the load.. This minute of critter measure of accuracy sounds sorta loose for competition...But 'course at this stage I don't know what the other competitors in the game are achieving with their guns...But,but,but,, ,I think I have heard enough views and suggestions to get started. I'll get off here and order a mold now.

Well... It always worked for me for both Hunter's Pistol/ Cowboy Rifle Metallic Silhouette and regular Silhouette. Maybe not "champion" level, but competitive.

[Alphawolf45]

[quote="Silhouette shooters shoot a lot. I know I do.

[/quote]

Sixgun You mean you practice on your own and/or compete in many different types of matches both in and outside of your home range?...

Reloading/Shooting .38 Special/.357Mag would be easier on your body and pocketbook than the .45-70 BPCR silhouette I been shooting.. I hope I do end up shooting pistol cartridge a lot.. I have one each of the 1/2 scale silhouettes and a battery operated automatic target re-setter which makes for fun practice.....But for actual matches there are just 8 pistol cartridge matches a year at my range. . Not a lot of trigger time to be had here in actual competition.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Lots of the sillywet shooters at our club shoot paper targets for practice. Trigger time is what counts most IMHO. Have fun!!

[Sixgun]

Alphawolf,
Yep, I shoot and practice all I can. I shoot monthly at our home club. (Atglen) and usually make it to the Regionals and the Pa. State Champs. I'm rated AAA across the board but I don't usually shoot that. My scores are usually from 27-31.

There are several clubs within a hundred miles that if I wanted, I could shoot the levergun silhouette game just about every weekend but time and money, and home duties usually prevent that. But......."............I retire in a year and a half and baby....watch out because I'll be shooting all over........The Good Lord willing of course.

You could use your .357 for pistol caliber and big bore. I've seen many guys use the same pistol calibered rifle for both....I have many times with the 44-40 and even the 32-20, but.....the 200 meter rams need a heavy bullet in the 357/44 and a high hit with the 32-20.

The neat thing about the silhouette game is that you never hit them all......well, I cant........so the game stays interesting. Two years ago I won first place at the pistol caliber and the .22 event in my class at the Regionals but the next year I shot a 16/60 with the .22. The guys got a great laugh out of that one but I did have an excuse as I shot a mess of old ammo the night before the match and clogged up the rifling and did not bother to clean it.

Like alcohol, silhouette shooting can be very addicting. -----6

[Griff]

Alphawolf,

Is your Rossi a "rifle" or "carbine"? Factory or aftermarket sights? IMO, you can take the most accurate ammo in the world, but if you shoot it thru a "run-if-the-mill" rifle that hasn't been accurized, you're wasting time & ammo. Two of the worst offenders on a carbine are the rear band and the magazine plug screw. The latter also being problematic on rifles. It NEEDS to be fully engaged in the hole in the barrel, but not bottoming out. There needs to be several thousands of clearance so it won't bottom out as the barrel expands w/heat. The rear band needs to be loose enough that it doesn't apply ANY torque on the barrel as whips from its harmonics throughout a temp range from your first "cold" shot to the last of the match. Be it in the sun or shade. I think of it as free-floating the lever gun.

The front band of Rossis with the integral front sight are problematic in their own right. As that band has to be tight so there's no movement of the sight. But not so tight it makes a choke point on a hot barrel. For best results grind off the sight and dovetail the barrel. Then only tighten the band screw so it won't come out. Light application of Locktite® or fingernail polish will do the trick. Same with the rear band on a carbine. I'll take a loose forend over a pressure-point every day! Both my .38/357 Rossis are cowboy action rifles; except for plinkin' neither has stared down a 100 yard target, so both still wear their factory sights.

Same with the forend tenon & cap on a rifle... I like a tight fit to wood, but NO contact of cap or wood on the barrel.

If you want to know if YOUR gun is shooter, strip off the forend and magazine stuff and fire it as a single shot from cold shot to hot barrel; then reassemble and shoot it again. If POI remains consistent, you've discovered just how well it can shoot... For a baseline shoot like that before disassembly. I'll bet you see a noticeable improvement... even without match grade ammo!

[Alphawolf45]

Griff
I bought the rifle version with 24 inch octagon barrel.. When I get it I will take your advice and check it for pinch points/free floating barrel. I am not squeamish about tearing it down for modifications.. I enjoy gun work.

[gundownunder]

Before buying your mold I would recommend finding out what bullet weight your rifle likes. My Marlin is only happy with heavy bullets like 175 - 180gr. I bought a 175gr Accurate mold and use it for pistol caliber CLAS with trailboss powder and rifle CLAS with LilGun, 2400, or 2205. A 175gr bullet at 1750fps will dump the 200 yd ram if I do my bit and the rams aren't hard set.
As far as accuracy goes, common opinion is that the 357 isn't a patch on 32-20. In my case the 32-20 shoots 5 shot groups half the size of the 357, 2" compared to 4".
I don't think anybody has mentioned yet that your idea of engaging the rifling will be dependent on whether you're going to be able to cycle the ammo through the action with the bullets seated out far enough to do that.

[Griff]

Griff
I bought the rifle version with 24 inch octagon barrel...

Generally, far easier lever gun to accurized than a carbine.

[Alphawolf45]

Before buying your mold I would recommend finding out what bullet weight your rifle likes. My Marlin is only happy with heavy bullets like 175 - 180gr. I bought a 175gr Accurate mold and use it for pistol caliber CLAS with trailboss powder and rifle CLAS with LilGun, 2400, or 2205. A 175gr bullet at 1750fps will dump the 200 yd ram if I do my bit and the rams aren't hard set.
As far as accuracy goes, common opinion is that the 357 isn't a patch on 32-20. In my case the 32-20 shoots 5 shot groups half the size of the 357, 2" compared to 4".
I don't think anybody has mentioned yet that your idea of engaging the rifling will be dependent on whether you're going to be able to cycle the ammo through the action with the bullets seated out far enough to do that.

Heya gundownunder--- what match sets the rams at 200 yards? I am not familiar with that one.....Now, certainly, of course this is why I asked about engaging the rifling and still able to feed. .I was wanting to know what you and others do about that with your leverguns..I am accustomed to single shots where I don't concern myself with lengths capable of feeding up through a repeating action. Are you able to engage the rifling and also feed from the tube???

[Alphawolf45]

Griff
I bought the rifle version with 24 inch octagon barrel...

Generally, far easier lever gun to accurized than a carbine.

Griff I never even considered a carbine.. This is a rifle sport isn't it?

[Alphawolf45]

Sixgun
I hadn't really considered shooting this .357 in the longer big bore matches.. Indeed one man at a match I watched did tell me he used his in the rifle caliber matches...I guess I will try it. The targets are very close as compared to the BPCR matches I have been shooting. Just that pill sent downrange is so much smaller. hmmmm. Yeah Buddy I will practice as often as I can.

Hey On a good day I am a pretty good shooter myself. However I have silly problems crop up regularly that lower my scores.. I am old, caint see, just enjoying the sports that I will very likely never win.

[w30wcf]

In order to get started in pistol cartridge silhouette matches next year I have ordered a Rossi levergun in .38/.357 ..I reload but I have no experience trying for an accurate levergun load.. Bullet length is limited by what will feed through the action.. Is it possible to find a bullet that will crimp properly and yet have an overall length that will have the lead started into the rifling?

Cartridges made with .357 Mag cases and the 358665 bullet measure 1.57" OAL. The Rossi will accept cartridges up to 1.59" OAL so the Lyman bullet fits just fine.

More important than wether the bullet has a round or flat nose is how it fits the barrel. I find that the 358665 fits the barrel very well and the base of the nose forward of the crimp groove is full groove diameter and is very close to the rifling.

Personally, I consider it the ideal .357 levergun non gas checked bullet based on other designs I have tried. Accuracy at 100 pushed with 11/4759 is in the 2" - 2 1/2" range when I do my part. I was able to get my first 10x10 on the Turkeys with the 358665 / 4759 combination. The faster burning powders also do pretty well but I found that the capacity load of 4759 was a bit more consistant.....

Individual results may be different.

Lee makes a similar bullet but I have no experience with it.

w30wcf

[crs]

Accurate .38 Special Loads? Not in my rifle.

In my Winchester M92 .357 with 20" Douglas barrel, the ONLY .38 special load that was accurate was the Super Vel 110 grain +P JHP ammo.
For my rifle, the faster the better, and the most accurate was .357 110 and 125 grain +P from Super Vel which was new at the time. Yes, I have been at this for a few years .

No cast bullets even approached the accuracy of full house .357 JHP ammo, so I just stopped messing with them except for plinking loads for my M19.

After the glow of seeing what ammo made the smallest groups faded, I went on to hunting with full house factory 125 and 158 JSP and hand loaded 140 grain at 2200 fps(my fave load with a bunch of H110). This was devastating on Texas whitetail deer, much like the Nosler PP in a .45-70 and .45-90 - dramatic expansion..

Come to think of it, those old bullets were so effective, I wonder how some of the modern brass and copper bullets would perform on game? A 140 grain .357 XTP type bullet at 2200 would be interesting, eh?

[Alphawolf45]

Accurate .38 Special Loads? Not in my rifle.

I haven't yet gotten started in this sport yet so I'll make a statement followed by a question mark so that folks can jump in with comments without feeling need to spare my feelings..

Given the size of the half scale targets I believe that a class AAA shooter could win a good share of matches using a rifle/ammo combination that will only group to 4 inches at 100 yards.?..

Beginner that I am--I figure if I had the most accurate rifle/load combination on the shooting line I could still finish dead last while the best shooter in the line could win with the worst rifle/load......So I'll get a decent load worked up and then go practice offhand. The offhand shooting at silhouettes is what I am anxious to do. Working up loads on the bench at paper targets just seems like work that has to be done but not great fun.. Since you guys say 2 or 3 inches at 100 is good I will go with that...That is size I can on a good day get at 200 yards with my .45-70 black powder Highwall.

[gundownunder]

My 175gr bullet has a crimp groove which results in OAL of 1.595, so that's where I seat them. I don't know what length would engage the rifling or whether that length would cycle. A lever action is not a single shot, you will need to crimp, or bullets will push back into the case while in the magazine tube and maybe mess up your face when the action gets blown out of the rifle.

If you want to maximize case capacity or accuracy I would suggest waiting till you get the gun and then try dummy rounds till you find the longest round that will cycle every time, then get your mold made by Accurate with the crimp groove in the right place for your rifle.

If using your 357 at 200yds you would be shooting the CLAS match where you would be shooting against 30-30, 38-55 etc. You won't match the rifle calibers for accuracy but you can enter the match and have some fun till you can get the next rifle.

[Tycer]

Remember that a two piece stock requires that the front stock be held in the exact same place for best accuracy.

[w30wcf]

The Ram target at 100 is 6" wide so ideally a <3" rifle a that distance would be good.

w30wcf

[retmech]

If YOU can shoot, a 3" 100yd rifle is not going to loose very many targets in the pistol caliber matches. The ram is not the problem at 100yds, it's the turkey at 75 yds!(got my first 10 last summer ) In my experience unless pushed pretty fast the Rossi's with their 30" twists like the lighter bullets like the Lee 125 RF. I run that about 1250 fps out of my Rossi and have never lost a 1/2 sized ram that I hit. It's a nice comfortable load to shoot, basically a big .22

[Alphawolf45]

retmech Ten in a row turkeys would be fine shooting at any distance.. The only 10 I have gotten is 10 pigs in BPCR off sticks.. I have considerable difficulty seeing turkeys at 380 meters with iron sights...But- now I will brag about this--- a few weeks ago a friend and I were shooting at full scale turkey silhouette in my battery operated target re-setter and Paul suggested we set it out at the 500 meter Rams line. He could see and hit it easily with his scoped .40-65 Sharps.....I could not see it at all with my home built iron sighted .45-70 Highwall----- but wait--- I could just barely see it as a blurry dot with my left eye.. So I got down prone with rifle butt to my left shoulder and left eye to the sights and worked the trigger with my usual right finger , and was able to knock it down 5 out of 8 shots , last 3 in a row were hits..Then had to quit because the awkward hold was letting the rifle butt pound my shoulder till I could do it no more..
I got the loading dies and the 358665 Lyman bullet mold in mail yesterday and rifle s'posed to get to my local FFL today.. I am looking forward to playing with it .This the first brand spanky new rifle I have bought for myself in 'bout 36 years.

[Pete44ru]

.

OT - It's good to hear from you again, Alphawolf45 - It's been awhile.

Happy Holidays, to you & yours.


.

[Alphawolf45]

.

OT - It's good to hear from you again, Alphawolf45 - It's been awhile.

Happy Holidays, to you & yours.


.

I read on here almost everyday. I don't say much as I don't have the guns and trigger time that a lots of you fellers have.

I picked up the new Rossi today.. Had I built it the gun would have been much nicer metal finish and wood to metal fit.. But I am very,very happy with it.. For a new manufactured firearm at this price ($637.00) I cant complain one bit. .It is a tool, not going to be passed down as a family heirloom .It will serve me very well, the misses will be me.