back to the riot and hi-cap subject

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:53 pm

I handled a couple of AR-15 pistols and an AK pistol at a lgs. The AK is much shorter than the AR, but heavier. The AR won't swing well inside a vehicle. Either is legal in the vehicle under current law.

So in the revolution of the slow grey cell the thought slipped out that a high cap 9mm hand gun is much much easier to operate inside the car, is totally legal so far, and makes the midnight run to the airport a more comfortable ride. I might buy another xd9sc for my wife to carry in case we have to walk home.

The fly in the ointment is that the promags get bad marks in internet opinions as unreliable on the xd forum. I'm waiting on the mag order until I wring out the promags I bought for my baretta mag-well sub2k. The 17 round mag that came with the carbine is reliable, so that's the on that lives in there. That's the update from here'bouts.

The looter-rioter class is still active in various places. Try to avoid the swarm of locusts.

Grizz

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:05 pm

I agree, regular pistols are much easier to use in a vehicle, if not dealing with an entire wall of zombies(rioters).

The 33 rd Glock mags work well. Having a couple of them on hand along with a handful of regular mags should help forestall running out of ammo at inopportune moments.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:46 pm

Redacted

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:19 pm

For most situations short of a full-out zombie-attack, one (or two) double-stack handguns with a bunch of magazines is more than enough, though there is little merit in just having 'enough' when bad things happen.

However, there is definitely a 'cool-factor' with some of the semiauto sub-gun-looking AR's and so on in 'pistol' format. Since I've never had a pod of zombies ambush me, I don't know whether I'd do better with an AR-15, or for that matter an M1A, vs. just a pair of 1911's and bunch of loaded magazines. Hope never to find out, actually.

Definitely the pistols are more practical and compact and discrete.

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:48 pm

Since my gun fund has it's (real low) limits I opt for the high cap pistols. Glocks for me. The last line in the docs post covers it all.

Cat

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:35 pm

Yeah, for inside a vehicle, a pistol works better, but for shooting out of a vehicle a carbine or AR pistol is easier to stabilize, and it is better if you have to travel on foot (barricades, disabled vehicle, etc.)

I would assume a pistol would be carried anyway, and used for fighting in or at the windows of the vehicle if necessary, and the carbine or AR pistol would be carried in the vehicle for use in fighting from the vehicle, or in case the vehicle had to be left behind.

I do not trust Pro-Mag magazines, for the most part.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:35 pm

I wouldn't take a Pro-Mag if it was free, except for range training in malfunctions.

I absolutely will NOT recommend them for any serious use. Ever.

For a Beretta 92, "PB" (Pietro Beretta) factory mags, MDS (also factory under a different name) and Mec-Gar are all I'd use for serious work.

Airtronic GI contract mags aren't bad to have around, and are a major improvement over the Checkmate "trying to get us all killed" M9 mags of the last 10-15 years. We got Airtronic replacements while deployed in '07, so they've been out a while with few major issues I have heard of.

A pistol is certainly easier to hide, and shoot in tight spots. A rifle is easier to fight with and more effective. Do what you have to in your situation. For most a pistol and 2 reloads is fine. For riots an extra 3 would be handy,

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:29 pm

point taken about the carbines. the biggest advantage I see for surviving a block party is capacity.

I'll see about the promags I have when I get the testing done and look for the better baretta mags. They should be responsive to mechanical input to help them along.

still want higher cap for the xd. the 32 round mag seems like it'd be great if I could find a reliable one. 20s would be fine too, just right size wize.

still looking. if anyone has links to sources for the "good" baretta mags pls post 'em.

thanks for the info

Grizz

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:46 pm

I found something I like. InterOrdiance Nano Ak47 Pistol.
I would have posted the picture, but the only ones available were huge. Click on the linkie

I just like the idea of something heavier than a 5.56

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:51 pm

Any Beretta-branded magazines will be PB or MDS. The markings will be on the side of the magazine typically.
Mec-Gar is it's own brand but is excellent quality, they are OEM magazine makers for several companies. I think Sig is one.

flyfisher66048 · Post by **flyfisher66048** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:39 pm

The AR pistol has the advantage over the AK pistol due to the buffer tube. You can use that tube as third (face) and fourth (shoulder) points of contact. They are much easier to shoot faster and more accurately than the AK pistols.

Only use the pro-mags when you feel like practicing your malfunction drills.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:28 pm

Panzercat wrote:I just like the idea of something heavier than a 5.56

Well, don't forget THIS option (great Hickock45 video of 300 Blk AR-Pistol) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7WsEjkO0fk

Even without the fancy-schmancy faux-buttstock, the concept is nice. Add a Law Tactical folding stock for your pistol-buffer-tube, and it can get really compact, too...

Check out the 300 Blackout cartridge - it is pretty close to 30-30 or 7.62x39 in power, from an 'AR' platform (the ONLY thing you have to change is the barrel, everything else including bolt and carrier and gas system is typically just fine with 300 Blk).

This is Rock River's equivalent, though it is not a normal gas/buffer system.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_id=562

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:19 am

flyfisher66048 wrote:Only use the pro-mags when you feel like practicing your malfunction drills.

Actually the last promag I had for the old 1911 performed quite well. Never had a malfunction. Not saying that promag is a top tier brand, but I was expecting worse.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:56 am

Heck guys, PTR is making a pistol version of the G3 - go big or go home

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:29 am

That's why I have this......my "go between". In size, it fits nicely between my AR LE Colt 6940 and a handgun.

Model "A" UZI with a factory folding stock. I have fired a little over 2k of 9mm from this gun using every conceivable type of hardball, hollow point and cast lead, from 90 gr to 147 gr. and it has yet to fail to function or fire.

I hear only the original early guns made by UZI are reliable with other manufacturers that made them are not up to par.

My son is trying to talk me into SBR and silence it but doing it proper will cost me another 15 c-notes.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:03 am

Streetstar wrote:Heck guys, PTR is making a pistol version of the G3 - go big or go home

to your point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6gIwjo9xL8

that would take up half the cockpit, a little too teutonic for me

mp5 is more in line with the job, but the uzi knocks it in panache

mp5k.jpeg

I mean, what says "hasta la vista" better than the uzi?

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:50 am

Enforcer in .30 Carbine.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:43 pm

The UZI has panache, but the MP5 can be had in 10mm...

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:38 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:The UZI has panache, but the MP5 can be had in 10mm...

Not readilly available unless its a franken-gun conversion --- cool concept though ---- The 10mm carbine died on the vine when the .gov just shrugged their shoulders and started using the M-4 for everything

The Sig Sauer MPX is an interesting concept in that the calibers can be changes easilly -- a 9mm unit can be converted to 40 or 357 Sig
---- A 357 Sig carbine sounds very interesting -- but here in the heartland, i havent seen a copy yet --- maybe Targetmaster has a small cache of these though

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:46 pm

I'll have to ask ghilliebear2000... if anyone can/has access/might could build a non-franken MP5K-PDW he could...

(Edit: over on HKPRO there are a few reliable builders who have (are still?) making MP5K clones... Here's one that comes with HK Quality... and price... http://brethrenarms.com/product/bap-10mm/)

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:23 pm

For work, I travel fair distances from home. Think around 200 mile radius. Now getting back home, if I could drive relatively unmolested is no problem. But, I could have to walk part of the way depending on road and other conditions.

In a vehicle, I'd stick with my normally carried 1911. Yea, only 7 rounds in a mag, but I have several. But what about the walking part?

Here a long gun comes into it's own. I've gone thru a succession of items looking for what is not only light enough to carry, but sufficient to the task. I'm not looking to start a fight nor am I worried about stopping zombies (they wouldn't want my brain anyway).

In my Jeep, I carry "The Perfect Jeep Gun". It a .410 Mossy that is broken down and fits into a 20" soft sided case. For my work truck, where I'd likely be dealing with the need to deal with people rather than kill something to eat, I wanted something a bit larger. To that end, I made "The Perfect Work Truck Gun".

Using the PJG as a starting point, I took an old Franchi Model 48 20ga and modified it in the same manner as the PJG. The barrel is again 18 1/4" (just enough to keep the Feds happy). With the stock removed and setup for quick mounting as with the PJG, the barrel is the longest part. And it will fit in the same size case as the PJG.

Now being a 20ga, it packs a bit more wallop, and if I do my part, I can keep slugs on a man sized target out to about 75 yds or so. The one thing I might do in the future is figure out some sort of magazine tube extension. But with one in the tube and four in the mag, it really should suffice for most things.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:51 pm

For in the car defense, I went to a sig p-227R 14+1 of 45 acp. I'm still not sure about what to have out of the vehicle.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:30 pm

Grizz wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:That's the kind of work they always made me do between 7pm and 6am. People don't take kindly to having their D-Mark disconnected...

looks good but the copy writer described the "true left hand model" as having a port side op rod.

uh, seriously? someone should mention to them that the standard right hand model has a port side op rod, and always has. a true left hander should have a starboard side op rod and port side ejection.

other than that it's big and cute and it's 40 cal so what's not to like?

it's starting to look like I might have to make my own pistol. maybe an exotic titanium sheet metal receiver built to the published plans of a homemade blowback repeater.... nah, not enough time for that one

P.S. I wonder if a hydraulic system could be used to replace the recoil spring, reducing the profile considerably by eliminating the huge buffer group.....

He's an HK Gun Crank, not a Sailor...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:38 pm

I know but the copy-editor gene always perks up with gems like that . . . . LOL

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:28 pm

Grizz wrote: I'm waiting on the mag order until I wring out the promags I bought for my baretta mag-well sub2k. The 17 round mag that came with the carbine is reliable, so that's the on that lives in there. That's the update from here'bouts.

Grizz

I'd really like to find one Sub2K carbines to acompany my Taurus 92. I'm assuming that Beretta mags will work in the Taurus versions of the 92/96 guns?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:35 pm

Ted, I don't know if they will, but someone on here familiar with them must know.

It's hard with so many different mags and manufacturers.

It seems that it's not the mags necessarily, but how they latch in, 'cause I have a different latch block that will convert from beretta to smith mags. the business end appears to be very similar to nearly identical.....

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:16 pm

I went with the Taurus version because I like the frame mounted safety better than Beretta's slide safety, and I found it for cheap. It's one of those guns that has it's scratches and dings, but it just shoots good, and keeps on shooting.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:22 pm

that's what makes a keeper, after a while they just get so comfortable to have around, like old friends.

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:37 pm

I am a bit surprised no one has suggested the Steyr Aug. A while back I carried one in my little pickup truck. You can shoulder and fire even thru the windshield if need be. Very handy, reliable, and carries well.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:43 am

TedH wrote:I went with the Taurus version because I like the frame mounted safety better than Beretta's slide safety, and I found it for cheap. It's one of those guns that has it's scratches and dings, but it just shoots good, and keeps on shooting.

In my opinion the Taurus 92's are way nicer than the Beretta's due to the much nicer safety; feels almost 1911'ish.

I also never heard of the slide-cracking issues with the Taurus; I think that was limited to some poorly heat-treated ones that got out of the Beretta factory. Of course there weren't tens of millions of Taurus's in heavy military use either.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:41 am

The Taurus will not use Beretta mags without modification. The mag release catch is in a different place.

The Beretta slide issues came from two things. SEAL Team Six and other specops guys shooting very hot loads (Nato SMG ammo or similar), usually suppressed, and waaaaaaaay more rounds than normal (the Beretta has a 5,000 round service life before inspection/parts repair... some of these guys were shooting 1,000 a week or more). So they were shooting the gun way outside it's normal spec (suppressors can really beat up some guns, so do hot rounds). There was likely some bad metallurgy in there, but shooting a metric ton more ammo than typical, with or without suppressors and using hot ammo didn't exactly help issues.

Ironically, the slide mounted safety-decocker was a US military decision. Early 92's had a frame mounted push-button safety.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:37 am

MrMurphy wrote:The Beretta slide issues came from two things. SEAL Team Six and other specops guys shooting very hot loads (Nato SMG ammo or similar), usually suppressed, and waaaaaaaay more rounds than normal (the Beretta has a 5,000 round service life before inspection/parts repair... some of these guys were shooting 1,000 a week or more). So they were shooting the gun way outside it's normal spec (suppressors can really beat up some guns, so do hot rounds). There was likely some bad metallurgy in there, but shooting a metric ton more ammo than typical, with or without suppressors and using hot ammo didn't exactly help issues.

Ironically, the slide mounted safety-decocker was a US military decision. Early 92's had a frame mounted push-button safety.

Thanks for the info. Kinda what I suspected in terms of 'overuse'. Didn't know about the suppressors being used though. They even bump up the back-pressure noticeably in my AR's, but I haven't used suppressors on handguns other than my 22 LR Ruger MkIII/45.

I didn't know that Beretta mags wouldn't work in my Taurus. Got lots of Taurus ones though...

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:51 pm

MrMurphy wrote:The Taurus will not use Beretta mags without modification. The mag release catch is in a different place.

The Beretta slide issues came from two things. SEAL Team Six and other specops guys shooting very hot loads (Nato SMG ammo or similar), usually suppressed, and waaaaaaaay more rounds than normal (the Beretta has a 5,000 round service life before inspection/parts repair... some of these guys were shooting 1,000 a week or more). So they were shooting the gun way outside it's normal spec (suppressors can really beat up some guns, so do hot rounds). There was likely some bad metallurgy in there, but shooting a metric ton more ammo than typical, with or without suppressors and using hot ammo didn't exactly help issues.

Ironically, the slide mounted safety-decocker was a US military decision. Early 92's had a frame mounted push-button safety.

It was a poor choice of steel for the design, and a design flaw as well. Some failed with very low round counts and standard-pressure ammo. When they were investigated, it was found that though Beretta likes to say how few actually injured someone, a ton were cracked.

It existed in their earlier pistols, like the M51, as well. The solution was to improve the material in the locking block and other places, and most importantly change the design so that when it failed, the slide was prevented from simply flying off the back of the frame.

They still break, just not as frequently and they don't hit you in the face when they do.

The slide safety is because the idea of a safety that is naturally activated by the act of charging a weapon is appealing to the brass that feels soldiers can't be trained and trusted. They took no thought to the dangerous consequences.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:04 pm

AJMD429 wrote:

I didn't know that Beretta mags wouldn't work in my Taurus. Got lots of Taurus ones though...

That kinda squashes my idea of a Sub2K to go with my Taurus.....

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:54 pm

TedH wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:

I didn't know that Beretta mags wouldn't work in my Taurus. Got lots of Taurus ones though...

That kinda squashes my idea of a Sub2K to go with my Taurus.....

maybe this will work:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/ ... 9?a=119849

on a ktog thread someone mentioned that there are three versions of the taurus mag. it has to do with the location of the locking notch, you can see it when you compare side by side...

hope this helps

when I find a .40 sub2k with glock magwell I'll add that, I'd like to have some way to use forty ammo.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:14 pm

Grizz wrote:
TedH wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:

I didn't know that Beretta mags wouldn't work in my Taurus. Got lots of Taurus ones though...

That kinda squashes my idea of a Sub2K to go with my Taurus.....
maybe this will work:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/ ... 9?a=119849

on a ktog thread someone mentioned that there are three versions of the taurus mag. it has to do with the location of the locking notch....

It should be possible to cut the appropriate notch in the magazine body to make one function in the other....?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:14 pm

Grizz wrote:
TedH wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:

I didn't know that Beretta mags wouldn't work in my Taurus. Got lots of Taurus ones though...

That kinda squashes my idea of a Sub2K to go with my Taurus.....
maybe this will work:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/ ... 9?a=119849

on a ktog thread someone mentioned that there are three versions of the taurus mag. it has to do with the location of the locking notch....

It should be possible to cut the appropriate notch in the magazine body to make one function in the other....?

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:46 am

From what I remember, yes.

I wouldn't count on it for serious use, but that's me.

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:13 am

How about this nasty little thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:21 am

williamranks wrote:How about this nasty little thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90

I got to fire one of those at a 'suppressor shoot' a few years ago. Kinda cool, and amazing how the magazine actually works; the cartridges actually spin 90 degrees as they descend into the chamber area. Never jammed though (only fired 20 rounds or so, but the owner says it is '100% reliable').

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:05 pm

The weapon itself performs very well and is highly reliable, but the 5.7mm round has less than stellar results. Both the government AP load and later rounds.

Having spoken to several deputies on a tactical team that shot multiple bad guys with them.....they were less enthused and went back to 5.56mm rifles.

To wit, one particular bad guy was shot somewhere between 12-15 times on full auto (IIRC, 3 rounds per shooter who got an angle on him, in just a few seconds). All of them were upper center mass hits. Bad guy fell over and said to them "stop shooting me, it hurts".

He wasn't particularly disabled (arms and legs still worked), just in severe pain. He did die in the ambulance because all the little rounds did the job. Just not right away.

The HK 4.6mm load has the same effect. You end up "sprinkling" the bad guy with 10-25 rounds, i.e most of a magazine to get a solid stop, instead of 2-3 rounds of 5.56mm.

Both rounds were designed for personal defense of rear area non-combat troops, to penetrate body armor. Sort of an M1 carbine role. They might work, and they're certainly fun to shoot (i've shot the PS90 and P90, and know guys who've shot the MP7 extensively) but they wouldn't be my pick for most things.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:11 pm

MrMurphy wrote:From what I remember, yes.

I wouldn't count on it for serious use, but that's me.

I'll give it a try if I get my paws on a Sub2K. Thanks for the info.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:58 am

I'm with Murph on the 5.7. On paper, it looks great. Real-life use shows varied results.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:45 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Panzercat wrote:I just like the idea of something heavier than a 5.56
Well, don't forget THIS option (great Hickock45 video of 300 Blk AR-Pistol) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7WsEjkO0fk

Even without the fancy-schmancy faux-buttstock, the concept is nice. Add a Law Tactical folding stock for your pistol-buffer-tube, and it can get really compact, too...

Check out the 300 Blackout cartridge - it is pretty close to 30-30 or 7.62x39 in power, from an 'AR' platform (the ONLY thing you have to change is the barrel, everything else including bolt and carrier and gas system is typically just fine with 300 Blk).

This is Rock River's equivalent, though it is not a normal gas/buffer system.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_id=562

You're not talking to Daddy Warbucks here :p
AK pistol is half the price and so is the ammo.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:49 pm

Panzercat wrote: You're not talking to Daddy Warbucks here :p
AK pistol is half the price and so is the ammo.

Doyou have a spare Glock, XD, or Jericho laying around? I could have a solution for you.

For an AK pistol, the Krebs selector is a good investment, it makes it a little better.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:00 pm

Panzercat wrote:You're not talking to Daddy Warbucks here :p
AK pistol is half the price and so is the ammo.

In my case, I already had plenty of 'AR' stuff to cannabilize, so ALL I had to get was an 8" barrel for about a hundred bucks, and a 'pistol' buffer tube for sixty bucks. It sticks out and looks funny, but still not sure the 'Arm Brace' is for me.

If it functions well and I wind up liking it, I'll maybe add one of them fancy 'hinge' things. Anyway, for about $230 invested, I can make me a decent '300 Blk pistol' that is fully documented and legal (subtract $59 if I just did it with an ordinary 'lower' that I already had, vs. a newly-purchased lower that I had 4473'd as a 'handgun' just to be sure it was politically-correct).