Mob control, self protection, riot/looters etc

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:15 pm

jcw wrote:Grizz, the Kel-Tec SU-16 Is a great little rifle. Not a lot of personal experience with one but I have shot ones belonging to other shooters at the range. BTW not one of them was willing to part with theirs. On you tube search out the nutinfancy channel. He has reviews that are some of the best out there.

nutinfancy flogged the sub2k pretty well in his desert spot. I got the 9mm sub2k and have a couple of 32 round mags, a couple of 20 round mags and a couple of 15 round mags. That should repel boarders for a few minutes.

Never got my hands on the SU-16. I think I'd like the colt m4 if I'm going to shoot 5.56

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:17 pm

jcw wrote:Grizz, the Kel-Tec SU-16 Is a great little rifle. Not a lot of personal experience with one but I have shot ones belonging to other shooters at the range. BTW not one of them was willing to part with theirs. On you tube search out the nutinfancy channel. He has reviews that are some of the best out there.

I'm not big on Nutnfacy's reviews, and The SU-16 is not a favorite of mine.

However, what it fills a really good role in that it:
Shoots 5.56, so ammo is everywhere and effective.
Is compact for storage or transport - can be put in a container that does not say, "Rifle inside!"
Is light.
Is not expensive. This is a big deal, since there are many people out there for whom even a cheap firearm is a big investment. These people need guns, too.
It not expensive, so if your car gets broken into or stolen or you boat sinks, etc., you don't feel so bad.
It uses M16 mags

Assembly is a pain in the neck, when you have them apart.

However, it is not a pistol, so it does not fit the OP's needs, and the pistol version does not use a buffer tube, so it is harder to use the arm brace. For someone who can carry a rifle, it makes a nice, cheap weapon to keep in a vehicle.

If it were me, I would still go with an AR carbine, or an AR pistol if space was an issue, over the SU-16, hands down.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:33 pm

Had a su16c for a bit. Decent rifle. You have to be good with plastic though. The feel doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Break in on mine was kinda rough. Lots of FTE. You mayhave to spend quality time with yours, maybe not. They're like Rossi in a way. Everything on the rifle except for mags and rails is proprietary. If you shoot the barrel out, you'll be calling keltec because its molded into the upper.

It's good for what it is and fills the disposable ar/pack rifle niche well, though their lackluster availability doesn't help matters.
Frankly, just buy an SKS for half the price, invest in one of those folding stocks and call it good.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:51 pm

hfcable and I have it well covered with our 5.7mm Johnson and they will make it through a hundred carbine courses.
They also do not inspire the fear and loathing that EBR's do.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:50 pm

Mescalero wrote:. . . our 5.7mm Johnson . . .

That's cool!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:33 pm

Mescalero wrote:hfcable and I have it well covered with our 5.7mm Johnson and they will make it through a hundred carbine courses.
They also do not inspire the fear and loathing that EBR's do.

M1 in 5.7mm Johnson, man I've been looking for one of those for years. The fact that it's a pretty much load your own proposition doesn't seem to have shaken any loose in my area.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:43 pm

cable found one in a shop and bought it.
He was pretty much struck for brass so I shipped him 50 cases' to get started with.
He got his dies and sent me back 50 pcs. of brass that he made with his dies, but he never said if he liked it or not.
Pretty much tailor made for this type of event, but if you think I am sticking around this type of event long enough to fire 1000 rounds, you are loco; I'll just be using it to clear the path out of Dodge.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:43 pm

Here is a good option:
https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/sa-vz58-pistols

The photos are too big to post, so you have to go to the link to see them.

Rugged, reliable, and can be set up to fold. 5.56 or 7.62x39, whichever you prefer. Can use AR mags in the 5.56 chambering.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:50 pm

Totally off topic,...but theres a fun clip from Strike Back where they are using VZ 58's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M55qQOS0zzk

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:48 pm

Malamute wrote:Totally off topic,...but theres a fun clip from Strike Back where they are using VZ 58's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M55qQOS0zzk

That chopper is the kind of backup I'd like to have...!

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:35 pm

I hadn't seen or heard anything about strike back. Thanks for the link. I have been watching season one episodes ever since last night on YouTube. Three seasons. Who knew? Lol

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:50 pm

rjohns94 wrote:I hadn't seen or heard anything about strike back. Thanks for the link... Three seasons. Who knew? Lol

+1.

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:52 pm

I like my Kel Tec Sub 2,000 in .40 S&W with Glock magazines. The magazines are the same as in my Glock 22, and that round really comes alive in a Kel Tec.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:33 pm

rjohns94 wrote:I hadn't seen or heard anything about strike back. Thanks for the link. I have been watching season one episodes ever since last night on YouTube. Three seasons. Who knew? Lol

OK - I don't watch television, so is this a TV show, or some cable-network thing, or what...????

I haven't been that far east (Washington DC is the farthest 'east' I've ever been), but I have to admit that from what people who HAVE been to the middle east tell me, that kind of scenario is fairly realistic.

Pretty sad that all the human PRODUCTIVITY gets so quickly un-done by war and terrorism...

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:14 pm

I don't have TV either Doc. I heard about it from another forum, then found clips on youtube. Just the other evening when I posted that clip, a suggestion in the sidebar showed episode one, season one, so I got to see that season about the same time Rjohns did.

Watch the season soon if you like it, it may get taken down from youtube. Season two seems to be a pay thing so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UCDkfIVpa8

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:52 am

It appears the show is aired on cinemax. If you have cinemax through a cable provider, then Cinemax on the go is available on mobile devices. only season one is currently available on youtube. The rest, just trailers. I watched all of season one. looks like a great show. I don't have cinemax so I guess I won't see the rest. pretty cool though.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:55 am

Hulu has a lot of stuff on there: http://www.hulu.com/search?q=strike+back

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:02 am

Check with your local library, if they either have any of the other seasons, or can get them through inter-library loan. I've gotten a number of different TV show seasons that way. It costs $3 for the mailing to get them to my library, but I can't complain about $3 for an entire season or even a single movie I'd like to see or books I like.

If any of you guys like high energy fantasy fiction, the Larry Correia books of the Monster Hunter International series are great fun, with good gun/action scenes (him being a gun geek and having plenty of experience with them). His Grimnoir books are also fun action fantasy set in the 20's-30's, in a slightly different vein. His are some of the few books I end up staying up way too late reading when I get one.

http://monsterhunternation.com/

Strike Back is on Hulu? Cool!

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:03 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
rjohns94 wrote:Laws here in Pa. Do not allow a loaded rifle in the car. They do allow loaded handguns within the law.
Ahhh . . .

So again, your solution is here:

All pistols!
Where are restrictions, there lives innovation.

The significance of this escaped me at the time. A pistol gives more legal leeway to be loaded in a vehicle (remember, in a vehicle and travelling is the topic of the thread) in many places than a rifle does. A short barrel rifle, besides the paperwork, isn't allowed in all states and requires more paperwork to travel with in any event. The Sig brace is usable as a shoulder rest, and allows good accuracy. Theres been discussion of it around the net that I've recently stumbled onto, and its been decisively determined to be an arm brace by the ATF, regardless of if its "used improperly or not as designed". For the first time, I'm taking an AR pistol seriously as a vehicle gun. Theres also a folding attachement for AR stocks that allows near instant use of it, with a stop that allows a single shot to be fired when folded. It makes up into a very compact unit, with the power and range potential of a rifle cartridge.

The pistol configuration of an AR is also legal in some places that a rifle AR isn't.

The wheels are turning,....

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sit ... i2nOaGiLPM

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:05 pm

Dang Malamute... now you got me thinkin'...

But... in the long run, I wonder about the effectiveness of a 5.56 as a short range cartridge... I like my .30-30 more.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:48 pm

Yes, I like my 30-30's also, quite a lot. They do fill certain roles a little differently though. I think the 223 does fine for shorter and medium range, especially when decent expanding ammo is used. They seem to take deer fairly well with good bullets.

One thing I didn't take seriously before as well was different chamberings in the AR's. The 300 Blackout gives similar performance as the 7.62x39 using 223/5.56 cases necked up and shortened. Same bolt heads, same magazines, and much less muzzle blast in shorter barrels. It's got me thinking some also, though all this is down the road for me with my work situation.

Some of the comments on other forums leans towards using a 223/5.56 upper for practice (cheaper and easier to find loads) and the 300 Blackout for carry use.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:21 am

Griff wrote:Dang Malamute... now you got me thinkin'...

But... in the long run, I wonder about the effectiveness of a 5.56 as a short range cartridge... I like my .30-30 more.

VERY effective. But the right ammo is key. The two cartridges you want to consider are the Black Hills Mk 262 Mod 1 OTM (this is a 77gr open tip match bullet) and the Black Hills 62 gr TSX load.

The 77gr OTM fragments violently and kills quickly. It fragments even at low velocities so it is effective at longer ranges and from short barrels. It is safer through barriers like drywall. The TSX load is pretty incredible, reliably penetrating car doors and still expanding and penetrating deeply. Average expansion is to .45" and it penetrates deeply. It works well through glass as well. It brings barrier penetration to the 5.56.

In my opinion the most versatile chambering for the AR is the 6.5 Grendel.

It will do most of what most other chamberings will do, and more. I would prefer the 6.5 Grendel or the 5.56 for antipersonnel work over a .30-30, but the .30-30 is not bad and the .300 Blk or 7.62x39 give similar performance in a semi-auto (don't do the 7.62x39 in an AR, keep it in a rifle that was intended for it). I still like the Grendel better than the Blackout, as it is more versatile.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:45 am

7.62 Precision wrote:It will do most of what most other chamberings will do, and more. I would prefer the 6.5 Grendel or the 5.56 for antipersonnel work over a .30-30, but the .30-30 is not bad and the .300 Blk or 7.62x39 give similar performance in a semi-auto (don't do the 7.62x39 in an AR, keep it in a rifle that was intended for it). I still like the Grendel better than the Blackout, as it is more versatile.

I love me some 30-30 too, but capacity in the sort of situations we're talking about makes me cry. Yes, I know you can load them up on the fly, but at the cost of slowing your roll big time. A levergun is still a good idea, but i think I'd opt for a pistol caliber in this case. Hell, we all love 454 around here, so why not drop some sledgehammers? You get the increased capacity and your target won't notice the difference inside a 100 yards anyway while retaining barrier penetration.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:18 am

7.62, how does the 6.8 SPC do compared to the others?

The need for different bolt and magazines complicates it some, but I've seen some comments about using them on deer with good results.

I've thought about 6x45 (6mm-223) but didn't know if it was really gaining anything over the heavy bullet loads in 5.56. Nosler partitions are available for the 6mm though, which would help in hunting, and perhaps in defensive use. The Barnes copper bullets (TSX?) are also available.

Proper bullets are key in any load. One guy commented about how miserable the 7.62x39 was when using ball ammo compared to 5.56. He had used and seen used both in Iraq.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:35 am

6.8 SPC is great for what it is designed for - to give better barrier penetration and terminal performance to the M4. It was designed to replicate the advantages of the 7.62x39 in the M4 after it was proven that you could not ever get the Russian caliber to function flawlessly in a standard M4 configuration.

I prefer the 6.5 Grendel though, as it does everything the 6.8 does just as well or better than the 6.8, with the added bonus of extremely good long-range performance compared to the 6.8's rainbow trajectory.

The 6.8 fans will argue that if you find magazines that allow you to load longer bullets (past the intended OAL of the cartridge) it can perform almost as well as the 6.5 Grendel. My argument is that this changes the purpose of the cartridge, as it no longer works right for what it was intended for; to work in a standard M4 within the restrictions of the M4 magazine well. Also, the case design is not intended for those bullets.

If the Grendel already does the longer, heavier bullets by design, why mess with the 6.8?

The 6.8 is great in its intended role.

Also, with the steel case Wolf ammo now available for the Grendel, you can get steel case 6.5 G ammo as cheap as steel case 5.56, as well as brass case (the Grendel chamber was specifically designed for steel case ammo, unlike the 5.56).

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:37 am

I also prefer the 6.5 Grendal

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:39 am

Thanks,
I did not know about the steel cased ammo.

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:53 am

Malamute wrote:7.62, how does the 6.8 SPC do compared to the others?

The need for different bolt and magazines complicates it some, but I've seen some comments about using them on deer with good results.

I've thought about 6x45 (6mm-223) but didn't know if it was really gaining anything over the heavy bullet loads in 5.56. Nosler partitions are available for the 6mm though, which would help in hunting, and perhaps in defensive use. The Barnes copper bullets (TSX?) are also available.

Proper bullets are key in any load. One guy commented about how miserable the 7.62x39 was when using ball ammo compared to 5.56. He had used and seen used both in Iraq.

I've only known one guy who had a 6x45 and he told me it was the most tempermental thing he ever worked with. Take that as hearsay, but if I were considering it I'd do a lot of research before plunking down the money.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:40 am

I am not equiped for any of these last three calibers, but I have an idea that I am better off with the AR or AK round for the simple excuse that it is a military round in worldwide common use. my defense ammo is 762x51, 45ACP, and 9mmLuger. Partly chosen for its massive user base.

I like the idea of the short pistols and see that there is a pistol version of the AK. Does anyone have direct experience with it?

As far as the OP idea, a loaded pistol version of the AK should be viable. For the purpose of extricating from a riot, or defending from flash gang violence which happens every day, would the AK round be as useful as the 556 at one block ranges? The draw for the AK is no buffer tube. Easier to conceal, more compact, and a laser sight would mean it could be fired from any position. If an underfolder stabilizer was available that would be a bonus.

Grizz

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:45 am

The 6x45 seems to be quite accurate from all accounts, the tempermental part may be functional?

I didn't know much about the Grendel, but just looked it up. It looks like it does have real advantages over the other options in standard 5.56 size AR's. Do the bolt heads hold up OK with the larger cartridge head size? Is anyone making MPI bolt heads for them?

Wolf got 6.5 Grendel ammo into production this year, is it still available with the Russian embargo? Having cheap factory ammo is a serious advantage for plinking and practice.

There is a folding buffer tube mechanism available for the AR. It allows firing one round when folded, and is quick and simple to open or close as needed. I think Ace makes a folding mechanism for the AK's with various stocks.

I agree about having easy to get ammo. One thing I'm coming to appreciate about the AR's is that you can change uppers, and calibers in seconds. You can use a specialty ammo for certain purposes, and swap to a standard chambering very easily, and a different length or different purposes. I'd heard others talk about this, but it hadn't really sunk in until very recently what that can do for you.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:04 pm

Malamute wrote:There is a folding buffer tube mechanism available for the AR. It allows firing one round when folded, and is quick and simple to open or close as needed. I think Ace makes a folding mechanism for the AK's with various stocks.

WHO makes the 'folding buffer tube mechanism for the AR'...???

Malamute wrote:One thing I'm coming to appreciate about the AR's is that you can change uppers, and calibers in seconds. You can use a specialty ammo for certain purposes, and swap to a standard chambering very easily, and a different length or different purposes. I'd heard others talk about this, but it hadn't really sunk in until very recently what that can do for you.

Yep. I have a couple AR's but the 'main' one has a scoped 223 upper with a 18" bull barrel, 'cuz I don't care much about weight, since my longest 'battle mission' is about 400 yards to the sandpit behind the house. However, I also have a 300 Blk upper that I use my Mystic suppressor on, a 50 Beowulf upper that I can hunt deer with (just to irritate the Hoplophobic LibTards), and a 338 Lapua (single shot) upper that I can hunt deer with if they are in the next county. Considering a 204 Ruger upper, but the 223 bull-barrel is so accurate I don't see a need.

I agree with 7.62 Precision - the Grendel is an awesome round, and perhaps what the guns should have been designed around in the first place. It leaves little or nothing for the 5.56 round to 'better'. I also like the 300 Blk, and if one wants something that does 'conform' to the 5.56-configured firearm's limitations, it is a nice cartridge, particularly if one's primary goal is truly quiet suppressor fire. Of course one CAN load the Grendel both 'hot' and 'quiet', and suppress the latter, to the same end. The alleged advantage of the 300 Blk as I understand it is that both supersonic 125 grainers and subsonic 220 grainers can function in the same weapon. However, I don't know that such is REALLY the case unless all the stars are lined up and the phase of the moon is right. My 300 Blk's have been rather 'picky' about what will function in them, with or without suppression.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:36 pm

I'm still leaning toward a lever action or two.

From http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles ... n_05.shtml....

One trick the Indians used was to draw the fire of their enemy, after their guns were empty and they were trying to reload, the Indians would rush them. This tactic worked for over a hundred years. But in 1865 one group of Indians were in for a surprise.

Two former Union soldiers had kept their Henrys and took them with them into Blackfoot Indian country. They began mining borax, knowing it was just a matter of time before they were paid a visit by the Indians. That day did not take long in coming. One morning about 40 warriors dismounted out of range and advanced. Once they got in range, two of the Indians would show themselves hoping to draw the fire of the two miners. The miners caught on to what the Indians were trying to do. The miners fired their Henrys at the same time but only one round each. The Indians seeing that two shots had been fired decided to rush the miners, thinking they were reloading their "muzzle loaders." The two miners waited until the Indians were within easy range and started a deadly rapid fire with the 15 remaining shots in each of their Henrys. Reloading, they chased the fleeing Indians and shot any of the wounded Indians that were left behind. After the shooting was all over, they dragged the dead Indians and piled them up out of rifle range and left them as a warning to any would-be attackers. The surviving Indians never bothered them again, they even named the Henry the "Spirit Gun."

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:38 am

Grizz wrote: I like the idea of the short pistols and see that there is a pistol version of the AK. Does anyone have direct experience with it?

If an underfolder stabilizer was available that would be a bonus.

I would prefer an Sa vz.58 pistol to the AK. It has a short-stroke piston, last-round bolt catch, the controls are better, and it is lighter. Ir will e a bit more expensive than some AK pistols, less expensive than others. I would make the arm brace side-folding on either, but it will be easier to do on the vz.58 than most AR pistols.

I don't like under-folders since there is no good cheek weld.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:45 am

Malamute wrote: I didn't know much about the Grendel, but just looked it up. It looks like it does have real advantages over the other options in standard 5.56 size AR's. Do the bolt heads hold up OK with the larger cartridge head size? Is anyone making MPI bolt heads for them?

Wolf got 6.5 Grendel ammo into production this year, is it still available with the Russian embargo? Having cheap factory ammo is a serious advantage for plinking and practice.

AA Arms is the place for bolts and barrels. I would only buy an upper from AA for 6.5 Grendel because they are really uptight about quality, and Bill Alexander is a perfectionist, and very meticulous in designing things. Other companies offer "Grendel" bolts that were not really built for the Grendel, and mrs with the chambers to try to improve them. Bill can tell you exactly why the changes to the chambers are not a good idea - he tried a lot of things in developing the cartridge and the chamber. Plus, it is now a SAAMI-spec chamber and factory ammo is built for it, so messing with the chamber is not a great idea. I was approached a couple years ago by one of the manufactures who built barrels for AA. They offered to sell me the barrels that AA rejected at a great price. They sold them to a lot of companies, and still make them even though AA no longer buys from them. I don't trust their quality. So I go straight to AA for 6.5 Grendel parts and uppers, and the same is true for the Beowulf.

From what I understand, Wolf has everything in place to produce ammo outside of Russia if necessary.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:36 am

Thanks for the post 7.62. Good information.

I'm in slow motion getting anything AR oriented up and running again, but its interesting to learn about. I'll start out in 5.56, and see where I go from there. The calibers being discussed make the guns more field useful for other critters, or for longer range.

Interesting about the Wolf ammo situation. I know some of the com block ammo comes from other countries in any event. If that ammo is available and affordable, it makes the Grendel much more practical to use and shoot.

AJMD429 wrote:WHO makes the 'folding buffer tube mechanism for the AR'...???

Law Tactical. They are a bit pricey, but look well made from my vague impression from their video. If one wants their AR to be small and compact for travel or discression, it looks like it does the job. Their video shows it in use.

http://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_s ... 014003.htm

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:52 am

Well, I made a few decisions on this and tried the fit of a few possibilities. This is going to be a two step process. First step was to upgrade the handgun to carry a few extra rounds. I went back to the .45 and chose a Sig P227 with 14 + 1, factory smooth package, nite sites, rail, extra mags, and Sigs laser/light combo. This gives me the option to carry as CCW, or dress it out and carry it in my EDC bag.

Still considering the 2nd option, may just be an unloaded colt ar with 16 inch barrel. Will just have to keep the SIG close all the time till I figure it out

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:22 am

My friend Juan has a .30 carbine Enforcer and he does not shoot it much.
May have to get that away from him.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:51 am

Mescalero wrote:My friend Juan has a .30 carbine Enforcer and he does not shoot it much.
May have to get that away from him.

Good choice. I thought of a 30 carbine in a paratrooper stock.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:58 am

Can't go wrong there.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:50 pm

the unloadedness of the carbine is a problem. so I am contemplating this:

NOT-yet.JPG

this isn't running. yet. if I get it to work reliably I'll post it up.

this way there is an immediate rapid response available without pesky carry laws in the way, at least in the pnw. so far.

this is addressing the "what if I bump into a riot" scenario we were discussing.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:01 pm

I like it! Trying to locate a RRA or Sig 556 pistol. I really like the concept. I don't like the short forearm grip. Think I Would rather go with a single point sling with a short barrel, gas piston system, in 5.56. That way I don't have to worry about the "rifle" rules.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:12 pm

rjohns94 wrote:I like it! Trying to locate a RRA or Sig 556 pistol. I really like the concept. I don't like the short forearm grim. Think. Would rather go with a single point sling with a short barrel, gas piston system, in 5.56. That way I don't have to worry about the "rifle" rules.

Yup. Mr Murphy has me thinking about that also. But contrary guy that I am I'm thinking of the ak pap pistol, which has the capacity without the buffertube. easier to hide imo.

AND, I wonder about the 556 in short barrels, vs the 762-39 in short barrels, something I know almost exactly nothing about.

I've read that the 556 ammo needs 2500fps to function "correctly". And I've read that short barreled ARs develop more than 50,000psi in cans, not that I plan on having one of those. It's just that, maybe, the thirty cal would be a better choice if it proves less tempermental. from that "platform"...

Or the 556 isn't, and I don't know enough about it yet? Any thoughts about those nagging details?

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:28 pm

The p556 has a gas metering system, adjustable for various ammo, and has a piston recoil vice DI because of the short barrels. In CQD situations, with a group down on the eastern shore of Maryland whom I have been doing some work with, the P556 wore a can and functioned flawlessly, but I didn't ever ask the pressure being generated. Same group also has the 7.62 variety which they seem to use without problems in overseas ops.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:34 pm

thanks for the info

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:48 pm

There are adjustable gas blocks for the regular DI systems also. Its just one more way to approach the question when making short barrels work.

The buffer weight can be tuned to the barrel length/gas port pressure to make them operate, and someone is making longer gas tubes, they take a turn around the barrel to reduce the pressure at the bolt. One thing that was touched on in one of the threads about this, if going with a piston system, parts aren't as easy to come by in case the gun is damaged somehow or needs parts for whatever reason.

I saw this when looking at this stuff a few days ago. It's a chart of pressure for different length barrels.

http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech/223vs68pressure.gif

As far as velocity to "make the bullets work properly", use soft points or hollow point loads. They are vastly better for defensive use, the full jacket stuff is for plinking and practice. I don't want to limit myself to the poorest choice in bullets for defensive purposes. The soft points I used expanded well on varmints at 300 yards from a 20" barreled gun, the newer ammo is probably better as far as expansion and bullet integrity.

The long mags work well in the glock 19's.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:41 pm

Good stuff Malamute

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:06 pm

The long mags work well in the glock 19's.

that's a beretta mag in an xd. it doesn't latch because of the difference in the latching notch location. I plan to bubba one of the long ones to see if I can get them to run in the xd, which will fit the scenario and buy time to arm up the carbine if it's still needed.

the problem being that a legal xd with normal capacity mags (32 rounds) is acceptable while the pistol caliber carbine cannot have the same ammo in the same mags in the carbine mag well while in the car. brilliant, eh?

otherwise I've never seen a long mag in an xd. I don't carry the glock, it sits home alone.

I get the point about using suitable ammo in a pistol length AR, that's good info.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:59 pm

Grizz wrote:that's a beretta mag in an xd.

Pleasepleaseplease share this if you get it working. Because I just happen to know an XDm 45 compact that would love to make its aquaitan-- Wait. That's 9mm isn't is? Sadface

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:39 am

Grizz wrote:
The long mags work well in the glock 19's.
that's a beretta mag in an xd. it doesn't latch because of the difference in the latching notch location. I plan to bubba one of the long ones to see if I can get them to run in the xd, which will fit the scenario and buy time to arm up the carbine if it's still needed.
...

I get the point about using suitable ammo in a pistol length AR, that's good info.

I did something similar once. I bubba'd an 8rd 1911 mag to accept the heel-mag catch on an AMT DAO Backup .45 (another gun I wish I had kept).

Worked well, so I don't see why you couldn't do it to the Beretta mag.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:41 am

so, if the mag mod doesn't run, I'm still thinking about this little pistol:

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/compone ... l?Itemid=0

now, the clincher would be if the soundtrack is built into the fore grip so I can operate with the tune

whatever....

there must be a million reasons why this pistol is a bad idea, but I haven't thought of any yet.

it's not an uzi, but on the other hand, it's not an uzi............................

and then, right on over to the other other-hand there's this:

http://www.jgsales.com/yugo-zastava-pap ... 69747.html

Grizz