POLITICS - Another example of LEO trampling the 2A

[sore shoulder]

I want to know why this officer was not fired.





http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/sep/2 ... s-apology/

Gun owner receives apology from police chief
Chief's letter, more training follow officer's confusion, threat of arrest
By Matt Lakin (Contact)
Saturday, September 22, 2007


Michael Patrick

Trevor Putnam, who was stopped while he legally carried his gun inside a Wal-Mart by an officer who was mistaken about the state’s gun permit laws, received an apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
Video
Trevor Putnam describes what happened at Wal-Mart
Related documents and links
A copy of the Internal Affairs complaint form
A copy of the summary and findings by Internal Affairs
A copy of the letter police chief Sterling P. Owen IV sent to Putnam
ColtCCO - A screened resolution of 39-17×1351 (Putnam's account of the incident on his blog)

Trevor Putnam knew the gun laws. The officer who stopped him didn’t.

“When I told him that I hadn’t done anything, he said he’d find a reason to put me in jail,â€

[JReed]

Dont you love it when the people charged with up holding the law dont know the law them selves.

[Hobie]

While I expect that Police officers, like anyone else, will make mistakes and/or be bad apples who've slipped in through the hiring screening, it bothers me that the police "culture" seems (and I emphasize "seems") to be that it is ok to do just about anything to "citizens" (aka "civilians" as opposed to "LEOs") so long as their intent is to do "good". "Good" might be removing drugs, firearms, snakes, or spoiled 6-year olds from a classroom.

Now, I notice that most none of these are of our ilk, i.e. gun enthusiast, hunting. I doubt that this applies to any police officer or federal agent on this board. What I'm talking about is a culture that separates "them" from "us". I rather think that the idea of police officer as public servant has been corrupted.

[Old Ironsights]

Dont you love it when the people charged with up holding the law dont know the law them selves.

What ever happened to "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse"?

[JReed]

OI
I agree with you it is no excuse.

[Modoc ED]

I feel that the distrust of LEOs as a whole has been brought about by the LEOs themselves because of incidents as related in this thread.

Last year I was called for Jury Duty. During the initial screening of our group via a paper questionnaire, I wrote at the bottom of the page that I would not vote to convict anyone in either a civil case or a criminal case who was charged and tried solely on the basis of a Law Enforcement Officer's testimony. I was dismissed as a potential juror and was told by the Clerk of the Court that my name had been permanently removed from the Jury Pool List.

There are just too many incidents like the one related above where a cop threatens to make an arrest on a trumped up charge just because the cop thinks what the individual is doing is wrong instead of basing a potential arrest on an actual law.

[sore shoulder]

I doubt that this applies to any police officer or federal agent on this board. What I'm talking about is a culture that separates "them" from "us". I rather think that the idea of police officer as public servant has been corrupted.

In my experience that "them" vs "us" comes from them. Too many of them take an air of superiority that is completely unjustified. I've seen it. It used to make me sick to see the way the SO and State Patrol treated people at accidents when I was EMS. I've heard with my own ears the former K9 for my SO say head no respect for civilians. He was former mil. I was formally offered a job once by the SO and one of the "bennies" was being able to associate in a different social circle. That was a big turnoff.

Hobie, the idea of peace officer has not been lcorrupted. It was stomped out by the boot of the law Enforcement officer.

[sore shoulder]

There are just too many incidents like the one related above where a cop threatens to make an arrest on a trumped up charge just because the cop thinks what the individual is doing is wrong instead of basing a potential arrest on an actual law.

Which is why every action the Chief claims as vindication of his depts efforts is worse than laughable, it's criminal. The cop threatened false charges and false imprisonement. He is a criminal, and lower than a child rapist IMO, becaue he had the authority of his badge and a police dept to back him up. The chief is now an accessory to the officers actions and a criminal himself. So a criminal, with a criminal stooge at his beck and call, and one that now owes him a BIG favor, are running a town. Nice, real nice.

If you or I had commited the same crimes as that officer, we would be in prison.

[Leverdude]

I feel that the distrust of LEOs as a whole has been brought about by the LEOs themselves because of incidents as related in this thread.

Would go a long way towards fixing that distrust if the offending officers in cases like this were simply dismissed or better yet actually charged with something. People in other trades lose their jobs when grossly incompetent.

Franks right I think. Most people would love to co-operate with the police openly but have, by experience, learned that they are not & will not be treated as equals. Evidence of the double standard is everywhere but few people question it & those that do are labeled wacko's by most.

IMHO law enforcement is entirely to aggressive regarding victim less crimes, and entirely too lax when one of their own screws up. Sometimes the silence is deafening.

[AJMD429]

A police officer friend told me once that there are so many 'hot shots' on the force that he would recomment NOT telling an officer (as required) that you have a firearm in your vehicle if stopped. He feels too many of the officers he knows would immediately escalate the situation by getting all tense, hand on gun, and 'take you down' for frisking on the ground. He said most of the cops (urban) he knows have the attitude nobody but them should get to have guns, especially powerful or high capacity ones.

OTOH in the rural area I live in, 2/3 of the deputies are fellow gun enthusiasts, and more likely to admire your gun than get all jealous because it's bigger than their duty gun. Years ago when we had some druggies in the woods, a cop came by who was going to walk up in the woods to where they were, and since it was dark and deep ravines, I went with him to guide him through the better paths. When he arrived I had my .45 in my back pants pocket, and was walking back from the barn with a shorty AR with Boonie-Packer spare magazine on it. He mentioned something about wishing he had something other than his service revolver, so I asked my wife to hand over the Mini-14 she was holding, and she went back in the house (Mr. Mossberg was with her still ), and the deputy and I went to throw the druggies off our property. It went uneventfully - probably because we didn't appear like people to argue with. Some cops would have just freaked out that I had a gun they didn't, which is one more reason not to live in the city or on the coats.

[sore shoulder]

A police officer friend told me once that there are so many 'hot shots' on the force that he would recomment NOT telling an officer (as required) that you have a firearm in your vehicle if stopped. He feels too many of the officers he knows would immediately escalate the situation by getting all tense, hand on gun, and 'take you down' for frisking on the ground. He said most of the cops (urban) he knows have the attitude nobody but them should get to have guns, especially powerful or high capacity ones.

OTOH in the rural area I live in, 2/3 of the deputies are fellow gun enthusiasts, and more likely to admire your gun than get all jealous because it's bigger than their duty gun. Years ago when we had some druggies in the woods, a cop came by who was going to walk up in the woods to where they were, and since it was dark and deep ravines, I went with him to guide him through the better paths. When he arrived I had my .45 in my back pants pocket, and was walking back from the barn with a shorty AR with Boonie-Packer spare magazine on it. He mentioned something about wishing he had something other than his service revolver, so I asked my wife to hand over the Mini-14 she was holding, and she went back in the house (Mr. Mossberg was with her still ), and the deputy and I went to throw the druggies off our property. It went uneventfully - probably because we didn't appear like people to argue with. Some cops would have just freaked out that I had a gun they didn't, which is one more reason not to live in the city or on the coats.

My main residence is very remote high up in the mountains off the grid. I'm often working on stuff quite a ways from the house and will have a .45 in a thigh holster, I've had feral dogs sneak up on me. Sometimes I sling an AR across my back for chores just to keep in practice for my mil duties. I have had strangers who are lost (they have to be to drive up my driveway) come up on me when I had the AR carbine sitting next to me while working on equipment, and suddenly when I hear them my first action is to grab the carbine, then look. People really get spooked and hit the brakes, some have had CA plates. It's really great when I'm wearing my favorite workpants around the place, the old BDU's. I'm sure the CA people stopped and called 911 after they left and recieved an even bigger shock when they were asked so what?

I have a friend who is the one, and only as far as I'm concerned, redeeming quality of our local SO, and he is the Undersherrif now. He often calls me to inform me of great gun deals he runs across. He recently called me to let me know about some HK91 clones he found out about. I once helped him transport and carry several AK47's to a meeting of the local prosecution team for them to examine for a gang murder case (yes MS13 came up here once). When I walked through the door first carrying 2 AK's the deputy prosecutor probably wet his pants because the last time he saw me I called him a liar in the courtroom. The look on his face was priceless.

[steveb]

In my experience that "them" vs "us" comes from them. Too many of them take an air of superiority that is completely unjustified.
.

I agree.

IMHO law enforcement is entirely to aggressive regarding victim less crimes, and entirely too lax when one of their own screws up. Sometimes the silence is deafening.

I agree.

[LeverBob]

Now, I notice that most none of these are of our ilk, i.e. gun enthusiast, hunting. I doubt that this applies to any police officer or federal agent on this board. What I'm talking about is a culture that separates "them" from "us". I rather think that the idea of police officer as public servant has been corrupted.
Quote: Hobie...

Bullseye : I couldn't agree more. It's too bad the po-lice have been militarized in this country as it promotes the "us vs. them" mentality. Most of the LEO's around No. Nev. are 1st rate people. They (LEO friends) have told me in no uncertain terms that they don't give a rats *** if the citizen is armed, believing that it is a G-D given right...period. Just love them & hate the jack-booted thugs.

LeverBob

[Leverdude]

They (LEO friends) have told me in no uncertain terms that they don't give a rats *** if the citizen is armed, believing that it is a G-D given right...period.

Thats a good time to ask him if he would carry out an order to disarm people.

[Jeeps]

To be honest this is a very hard thing to quantify.

It has been filtering down and being distilled since day one on how to take
charge of a situation. No easy task when you are human.

When you are ready for a "worst case scenario" you are hardly prepared for
a civil discussion.

If you are being "Mr. Niceguy" a bad situation can get out of control faster
than a blink of an eye.

I was pulled over in the beginning of January, I didn't notice my vehicle inspection
had lapsed, and our local LEO's have a "hawkeye" for those things.

I was on the way to look at a house to demolish for a friend. I seen a set of
red lights behind me so I pulled over. It was a friend of mine, local sheriff,
after a few minutes of waiting for him to run my plates while still in his car
he drove up beside me and yelled "get that dang thing inspected bro".

I told him I would after accusing him of stalking me, we both laughed, and
my friend and I pulled into burger king to eat. We then continued on to the
house and within another mile, yes that fast, there were red lights on me
yet again. When I say "hawkeyes" I meant it.

It was a trooper this time, after giving over my papers he proceeded to administer
a battery of questions. Where are you going, why, and so forth.

I was asked why I am going to look at a house if I can't afford to have my
Jeep inspected. The usual ball busting I never could understand, it seems
like they make fun of you so you will say something they don't like so they
can have their feelings hurt.

He looks at my friend and say, "let me see some identification", to which I
reply "what did he do?". After I was told to shut up I got a little miffed and
stated "you have no reason to ask for his identification". I had already politely
answered about fifteen question about myself he asked which had no bearing
on my Jeeps "uninspected" state.

I got lucky, his face turned red and he told me to have my Jeep inspected
and he got in his car and left.

I won't even get into the village LEO who used to pull over my girlfriend
right after I got out of the Corps and ask her for her phone number all the
time on her way to work. I don't blame him, but after three or four times
a man should get a hint.

I think it might all boil down to the ratio of how many times you were helped
by LEO's compared to how many times they have upset your day.

[FWiedner]

I think it might all boil down to the ratio of how many times you were helped by LEO's...

In 50 years, ZERO.

I understand that it is a difficult job to do, and one that I myself could not. I wo't claim that I never made a bad situation worse, but I've never, not even once in my entire life even met a friendly cop.

In recent years, those nice "peace officers" became "law enforcement officers" and then an army of occupation with the single goal of beating the people into submission.

Sorry to be so negative, but that's my experience, and my personal opinion.

[Jeeps]

I think it might all boil down to the ratio of how many times you were helped by LEO's...

I won't claim that I never made a bad situation worse, but I've never, not even once in my entire life even met a friendly cop.

Prolly cuz your rough around the edges like me Just teasing

I have the problem of being too nice of a guy, but if I feel like someone is
trying to get "Alpha Male" around me I bristle pretty quickly. Not a good idea
around LEO's.

Being teased by someone with a badge and having to keep your mouth shut
because you fear reprisals that won't even be questioned can leave a bad feeling
and permanent scars in peoples minds.

Like having to stare at the ground in the presence of the school bully.

I think the old "bad apples" quote prolly sums it up pretty good. Not that the
whole bunch get rotten, rather it's good name gets tainted by a few bad
examples.

[gary rice]

While I expect that Police officers, like anyone else, will make mistakes and/or be bad apples who've slipped in through the hiring screening, it bothers me that the police "culture" seems (and I emphasize "seems") to be that it is ok to do just about anything to "citizens" (aka "civilians" as opposed to "LEOs") so long as their intent is to do "good". "Good" might be removing drugs, firearms, snakes, or spoiled 6-year olds from a classroom.

Now, I notice that most none of these are of our ilk, i.e. gun enthusiast, hunting. I doubt that this applies to any police officer or federal agent on this board. What I'm talking about is a culture that separates "them" from "us". I rather think that the idea of police officer as public servant has been corrupted.

hobbie, i agree 100% on that one. public service as a whole is not funtioning the way our founders intended.

[Ray]

In the spirit o the 2nd Amendment I believe that the presence or absence of a weapon should have no bearing on an encounter with a peace officer. But in the real world, at least in the mind of most police personel, any weapon must be immediately and completely "secured". The peace officer who can carry on a contact with an armed "civilian" without panic or hysteria is rare.

It is only the possum and carp constables that will abide an "unsecured" weapon and the greener ones have already got in the habit of asking a subject to either lean the weapon against a tree or to lay it down on the ground and step away before asking for I.D., hunting license, or game tags.

[Nazgul]

Live in a very small town, everybody knows everybody and their business. A great place. Our town Marshal couldn't be a better guy. Would trust him in any situation. Have a neighbor who is a State Trooper. When he moved in I made a point to greet him and get to know him. Didn't work. Had to wear him down for almost a year before he would even wave as he left for second shift.

I just wonder when a neighbor in such a small place doesn't even acknowledge a hello.

[stevie_d_64]

They (LEO friends) have told me in no uncertain terms that they don't give a rats *** if the citizen is armed, believing that it is a G-D given right...period.

Thats a good time to ask him if he would carry out an order to disarm people.

Post of the thread award!

But, make sure you are prepared to proudly wear the "Come and get It" hat..."Molon Labe" would work in a pinch, but there are too many people out there that don't read ancient Greek I suppose, or something like that...

That way everyone on both sides of the equation are on the same page...

[stevie_d_64]

Dirn, was that my first post in the new forum???

Geesh, I need to get out more often!!!



I'm such a goober...

[Rebel1972]

it's been my observation that most LEO's see the general public as criminals who just haven't been caught doing anything yet

[Hagler]

Gentlemen,

If we can recall:

Not too long ago, we had a discussion about openly carrying guns in Louisiana. Louisiana has a law that says we have the right to openly carry a gun, and that law cannot be pre-empted, overturned, or otherwise usurped by ANY local agency. Also, if you recall, one of our own, who just happens to be a Police officer right here in Slidell, told me that openly carrying a gun means that I WILL be stopped frequently, because LEOs will think of me as "suspicious". So:

Louisiana law= right to openly carry
Anyone openly carrying in Louisiana = the "right" for police to harrass you

...all because of "the current climate", and gun= "criminal"!

I bet most Louisiana police officers do NOT know this Louisiana law. If you recall, I stated, at the time of the original discussion, that I will NOT try my luck with this law, which gives me a right to carry. ...how sad...

Shawn