OT- Discouragement?

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:18 pm

While I was on vacation this week my Wife grabbed a magazine for me to read. It was a hodge-podge of articles called "The best of Shooting Times and Guns & Ammo". I was reading an article from the September 1998 issue of Guns & Ammo called "Long-range Handgunning" by Ross Seyfried. He rubbed me the wrong way.

He started off talking about how hard long distance shooting with handguns was and the basics of what it took to get it done. Then he goes into a slough of praises on Elmer Keith and how awsome he was. He kinda gives ya the feeling that if he were a woman, he'd a gladly had Elmers babies. That I could care less about; who you like is your buisness. But the next part I found just irratating.

"I watched him[Elmer] shoot when he was old, borderlng on feeble. He was good enough then to be almost unbelievable-good enough to leave absolutely no doubt that he had done everything he claimed. We won't achieve his level, but by understanding his principles, we can make a handgun perform magic.

I might be on a ship-of-one here, but I have little patience for people that say stuff like that. His affection for Keith skews his perception of other people, and it spilled right out onto the page. What a joke.

Who is he to tell people that they will never do anything? I don't have anything against Elmer Keith, heck, I don't know much even about him. But for him to so casualy make the proclaimation that none of us will ever get as good as Keith, is foolish.

Of course, I may just be too sensitive towards demeaning comments about my shooting abilitly made by people that have never even met me. Yeah, that's probably it.

Rant over, thank you for "listening".

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:29 pm

I am a former Marine and I will never be Chesty Puller, but I'm proud to have followed in his footsteps...so to speak. Along with many other Marines who achieved more than I...Just becoming a Marine was the proudest day of my life...

Think positive and you can do/accomplish just about anything you wish...to include shootin' as well as anyone out there....

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:14 pm

A lot of fellows went West in the 1800's but only a few made the history books. Some of them died in the wilderness and some went on to live long successful lives in anonymity - but that didn't necessarily mean they were less competent than the ones we remember today by name. The same goes for common folks who are good marksmen but not in a position to be famous.

Elmer Keith did a lot of work to develop the .44 Magnum and he wrote about that and many other things. He was also of an age to know some old West characters who were still alive when he was a young man. There is no doubt he was an accomplished shot - as was Townsend Whelen, Charles Askins and Jeff Cooper. I could go on but I think the point is made - Ross Seyfried and other gun writers are simply in the business of selling magazines - nuff said...

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:50 pm

IMO Elmer was one of a kind. I greatly admire his work. He was usually right, and his detractors were usually wrong.

Jeff Cooper & John Taffin are the only others that I admire as much as Elmer. Bob Milek was also one of my favorites.

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:02 pm

I have read that article and most of Mister Seyfried other writing. I understand that he spent several of his summer vacations in the Keith home as an apprentice of sorts. He talks of Mister Keith testing handguns for accuracy at three hundred yards and beyond. These are guns that most of us shoot at 25 to 50 yards.

You need to read Mister Keiths "Sixguns" and his autobiography. Even assuming that he had an overinflated view of himself, there are few of us that can ever fill his boots. I am sorry that I never met him and admit to having a small measure of envy toward those who had that privelege.

I consider Mister Seyfried to be an honest gun writer. I have little interest in rook rifles or wingshooting but when he talks of African hunting and large bore British rifles I cannot put the magazine down. His handgun hunting experiences are amazing. How many of us here have slain cape buff with a 4" model 29?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:41 am

Elmer Keith grew up in a different time and a different world. For much of his life he didn't even have electricity or what we call modern conveniences. In much of the west, it was still the old west well into the 1900s. These are the times and places Keith grew up in. He did things we simply can't do now. He shot guns to live, now we shoot them to play. He was there in the infancy of handgun hunting. The fact that we use handguns to hunt with today is because of the work he did developing better bullets and cartridges.

Before you badmouth those who knew Keith, and even Keith himself, do some research. I'd suggest reading Keith's autobiography: "Hell I was there". You'll never believe he even survived to adulthood, let alone became the dean of hand gun writers.

Joe

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:16 am

J Miller wrote:

I'd suggest reading Keith's autobiography: "Hell I was there". You'll never believe he even survived to adulthood, let alone became the dean of hand gun writers.

Joe

I agree. Every once in a while I read the chapter titled "Of Fire and Pain" It puts things in perspective and discourages me from whining.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:21 am

JMiller wrote:Before you badmouth those who knew Keith, and even Keith himself, do some research. Joe

I didn't say anything bad about Keith. I only made negative comments on one article of one man. What's to research? My post revolved around the comment Ross made, not whether or not Elmer Keith was for real or not.

Do you beleive nobody is ever gonna achieve Keith's level of accomplishment in handgun hunting, Joe?

I know I wont be doing it. I can with confidence rattle off 20 or so names of people I know that will never be as half as good as Elmer. But, I will not say that none will do so. That would be foolish. That's what my problem with the article was all about.

Woodtroll · Post by **Woodtroll** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:47 am

The written word at times depends a lot on personal interpretation, especially when taken out of context (and by that I mean, literally, a small portion lifted from a larger work on the same subject, not the negative connotation that most people think of when they hear "taken out of context").

I don't think Seyfried necessarily meant that "no one else will ever be as good". I grew up reading Keith's articles in "Guns and Ammo", and by high school had read most of his books. It always impressed me that Keith was one who had truly "been there and done that", and he literally grew up and lived his life using guns in capacities that we never will. How many folks now can carry a gun all day, taking shots of opportunity, judging range and compensating for misses, etc.? Just like professional drivers, pilots, or craftsmen whose vehicles and tools become extension of their will without conscious thought, I can believe that Keith developed many of his abilities through constant exposure, use, and experimentation with firearms.

To put it a little differently, I think that the phrase was intended to be a tribute to Keith's abilities, and the conditions that enabled him to develop these abilities, rather than to say that no one else ever has a hope of being as good. The opportunities are just not the same for us now as they were for him.

I'm not trying to argue the point, just giving my impression of what Seyfried was trying to say.

Y'all take care! Regan

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:53 am

By gum, now you fellows got me thinking I'm missing something! I've never read anything that Elmer Keith wrote, but now I figure I need to get my hands on some of his books. What are the top 3 books that he wrote? .... I'd like to order them. I do have the 44 Cal Keith bullet mould and shoot them in my 44 Russian.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:59 am

Elmer Kieth was a great shooter in his time.....
so was Al Parsons in the 60s & 70s
Just like Bob Munden and Tim Bradley are today....
These guys are incredible shots....
I have seen Bob Munden shoot a baloon on a metal target
at 200 yards with a snub nose 38.....
Then again I have done it too....with a little practice
though not with a snubby...
I cheated...used a SW 686 8 3/8" barrel...
All it takes is...... practice...$$...and basic understanding of physics..
I have seen a guy in this forum put 6 shots in less than a 1" group at 50
There are great shots everywhere.....

Woodtroll · Post by **Woodtroll** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:06 am

I don't mean to sidetrack this thread from the original comments about Seyfried's article, but since you asked...

My favorite for "getting to know" Keith is Hell I Was There!. This autobiography tells his life history pretty much based on his experiences in the outdoors and with guns. Some folks believe a lot of this book comes across as pompous, but if you read it with an open mind, and remember that the folks who knew Elmer believed he was honest and sincere in everything he related, you will find it very interesting. You have to remember that he lived in a much different time than we do now.

Aside from that, any of his books on hunting or firearms are enjoyable reading, I think. He certainly was not the polished writer that his contemporary Jack O'Connor was, but I enjoy the down-to-earth, straight-forward way he relates his experiences.

I hope that this helps- I'm sure others have their favorites.

SJPrice · Post by **SJPrice** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:22 am

I think his two best works are "Sixguns" and "Hell I Was There" his autobiography. Unfortunately "Hell I Was There" is out of print, but you can still find a used copy for sale if you search for it. One thing to remember is that we have some of the finest single actions available ever in some of the best cartridges you could ask for because of the pioneering work done by Elmer in his time. If you ask around you will find folks like John Linebaugh, Dick Casull, Hamilton Bowen and others are great fans of Mr Keith.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:06 am

Andrew, please don't let discouragement with writers sour your day. Life is worth too much to let little things like that bring in negativity.

As for shooters approaching the level of some of the pioneers .. some may, some may not. The best way to find out what someone can do is invite them to a public shoot. Let's see what folks can do with a sixgun or a levergun.

That's the fun thing about shooting. We can do it with other people and show our stuff!

For the other question about Elmer Keith's books -- he wrote 10 books in his lifetime beginning with a small book called "SIXGUN CARTRIDGES AND LOADS".

Some of the others are (not in order of writing) SHOTGUNS, HELL! I WAS THERE, SIXGUNS, BIG GAME HUNTING, RIFLES FOR LARGE GAME, BIG GAME RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES.

You can find some of them on Alibris - http://www.alibris.com/search/books/aut ... h,%20Elmer

John Taffin's tribute to him is posted at http://www.sixguns.com/bunkhouse/elmer_keith.htm

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:23 am

I'd like to jump in here, too.

Andrew, I read Seyfried's comment to mean that nobody will ever be in the time and place with the resources and contacts to do what Elmer Keith did. I think that is true, that Elmer Keith occupied a unique point in time and space that can't and won't be duplicated. I don't think his implication was that nobody can or ever will shoot as well as Elmer Keith.

That said, a lot of us admire Mr. Keith because he did what he did, when he did it, with a lot of impediments that he really glosses over. If one reads "Hell, I was There", one can only begin to understand how hard his life was after that fire. And clearly, his family and experiences taught him to be a blunt instrument in many ways but as I understand it he was as much a standup guy as there ever was. To admire such a person is, I think, a measure of person's values and Mr. Seyfried can only benefit from a bit of fawning over his hero if that is what he did do.

Now, Kirk, if I was to get Mr. Keith's books (which I am), I'd get "Sixguns", "Hell I was There" and "Shotguns" first and foremost. They've all been reprinted and can be found for not too much money (especially since the Canadian dollar is so strong now!). Once you've been through those you'll want the rest, indeed to read everything the man wrote, good and bad, because you'll then know there are many jewels even in the slag from some of his editors.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:48 pm

Andrew,

I kinda wonder why it bothers you at all? This is a 10 year old article written by a man that you don't know about another man that you won't ever know. I met Elmer Keith only once, but I enjoyed the meeting. I know Ross, and I call him a friend.

Live and let live. Ross did not write that to get under your skin and I doubt that he even knows you are alive.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:50 pm

"BIG GAME RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES" was one of the first hardback gun books I ever read. It ruined me for life;)

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:52 pm

Hobie wrote:...I read Seyfried's comment to mean that nobody will ever be in the time and place with the resources and contacts to do what Elmer Keith did. I think that is true, that Elmer Keith occupied a unique point in time and space that can't and won't be duplicated. I don't think his implication was that nobody can or ever will shoot as well as Elmer Keith.

I like that idea. It makes alot more sense when it's written out like that. I hope that is what he meant.

ScottT wrote:I know Ross, and I call him a friend.

I don't want people to get the impression I don't care for this Ross guy at all, I just didn't like the comment. As stated I like how Hobie put it up above, maybe that's what he really meant. Maybe you could ask him what he meant. I'm not affraid of correction, and I would love to get his extrapoltion on the comment.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:00 pm

Do you beleive nobody is ever gonna achieve Keith's level of accomplishment in handgun hunting, Joe?

Andrew,

Yeah, that is pretty much what I meant. Elmer Keith used his handguns as true tools. He used them to bring home food, to survive in times that killed many people. To him they were an extension of his self. I never met him, but from reading his books and articles I've gotten to know a bit about him.

Nobody in the U.S. today, or in the last 50 years even comes close to living the life he lived.

Unless you live the life style, and really need the guns to survive, you just don't have the mind set he did. So I really doubt anyone will ever truly achieve Keith's levels of skill with the handgun.

It's a goal to work towards though.

Joe

Rexster · Post by **Rexster** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:07 pm

I can see someone here has not read much of Ross Seyfried's writing, nor read much about him. No less a writer than Col. Jeff Cooper wrote very highly of Ross Seyfried, on everything from IPSC championship shooting to African hunting. And, no disrespect meant to John Taffin, but when he was actively writing, for a while there, Ross Seyfried, IMHO, came closest to inheriting the legacy of the great Elmer Keith. Not only did he apprentice with Elmer Keith, but seemed to capture much of the Grand Old Man's flavor in his writing. One reason we don't see much of Ross Seyfried's writing these days is because modern gun rag editors seem to be too controlling, IMHO, wanting to put too much of their stamp on articles in their magazines. Ross Seyfriend does still write for _Double Gun Journal_, and his articles very occasionally appear in other mags. _G&A_ became pretty worthless when Ross left them, and _Rifle_ and _Handloading_ were also much diminished when the same happened to them.

Rexster · Post by **Rexster** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:24 pm

Just to be clear, Ross Seyfried worked cattle in his earlier days, and wore an S&W .44 mag daily while doing so. Later, he became an IPSC champion, in the days before compensators and light loads. He became a professional hunter in Africa after his IPSC days, and being a fan of fine old British rifles and cartridges, used a .416 Rigby. He was a pioneer in the the use of really big bore revolvers to shoot some really big critters in Africa and elsewhere, with .475 and 500 Linebaughs, when those cartridges were still widcats. His big-boomer rifle experimentation did not result in as much commercial attention; I think his .58-ish caliber Nyati was a bit much. Most of all, he can really use the English language superbly. I don't read much of his stuff lately, simply because expensive double shotguns are not my cup of tea, so it is rare for me to buy and read a copy of the expensive _Double Gun Journal_, though sometimes at B&N, I will find a copy someone has peeled open, and will take a peek inside to read a Seyfried article.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:24 am

I think it was a nostalgic, complimentary comment that Seyfried was trying to make. I don't think that he's necessarily saying that nobody will ever have the abilities that Elmer Keith did, although those abilities would be very difficult to achieve. I think that the comment he made is just the same as saying that nobody will ever be as good as Michael Jordan at basketball. Will others posess equal or better abilities than Michael? Maybe. But no one will ever again have the same impact he did on the basketball court. It's just like comparing MJ to basketball, or Jim Brown to football running backs.

There are excellent shots out there today. Bob Munden, Tom Knapp, and others. These people are excellent shooters, very entertaining to watch, and may be every bit as proficient with a firearm as Keith. (I'm not saying they are as good, just trying to make a point.) They, however, will never have the impact on the shooting world that Keith did.