Load for Miroku .45 colt

[Fisher-Price]

I have just gotten a Winchester Miroku 1892 in .45 colt, it's one of the Oct barreled 1 of 500 editions if that matters. I load 8 grains of Unique behind a 250 gr rnfp. For my 7.5 in SAA. Cannot get a group with this rifle. At first thought it was my older eyes so replaced factory buckhorn with Skinner barrel mount aperture sight. Still getting 6 inch groups at 50 yds. with some 8 to 10 inches off center in all directions. I am looking for a load that will shoot in both my Saa & this rifle. I thought I may have been flinching, picked up my 1886 in 45-70 w 38.5 gr of 3031 mentioned in an earlier post. With 3 times the recoil I can just about cloverleaf them on the same target.

For what it's worth... My 1892 browning miroku in .44 mag will only shoot a 240 gr jhp with 23 gr of H110. I have tries just about every factory offering there is and it will not group in a pie plate at 25 yds with any other ammo than the h110 reloads.

[AJMD429]

My Marlin 1894 is finniky about loads, but my son's is not. I'd suggest first slugging the bore to see if it is oversized. Then if it is try larger diameter lead bullets, gas checks, or jacketed bullets. And try a whole range of loads, preferably over a chronograph, because often the most uniform velocities will correlate with accuracy. Stout crimps also may be mandatory, particularly with some powders; until I got a 'rifle type' Lee Factory Crimp die, my groups were twice as large, no matter how 'hard' the crimp.

[Buck Elliott]

I suspect you are not getting good consistency from your Unique loads in your 92.. My '73 loves H-4198 behind a .454" diameter Laser-Cast bullet.. I worked my way up from 20 grains to 24 grains, and found a good "sweet spot" at 22 1/2 grains, with CCI LPMP.. Standard deviation measured 9, which is about as good as it can get.. The 24 grain load is almost as consistent..

That is a good, stout load in a SAA, but my Beretta Stampedes seem to thrive on it..

[Fisher-Price]

I slugged the rifle today, it has a 20 inch barrel and my caliper indicated .451, I am hoping this means I will be able to find a load that will work in the SAA & the rifle. Suggestions? 8.5 or 9 grains of Unique or should I try something else? I have Red Dot, W231 & tite group available, powders are scarce now.

I am not interested in hot rodding the rifle or using jacketed bullets. My current loads are the Missouri bullet 250 gr Cowboy they are .452 diameter. I would like to keep a pleasant load for the pistol 800 - 900 fps range that will work in the rifle.

I am loading on a Dillon 550 and using RCBS sizing & seating dies and Dillion's powder measure, belling die & crimp die.

Fisher-Price

[Sixgun]

Relax.....you are not alone. 6-8 weeks ago a Miroku 45 L. Colt showed up at the post office. It was a gift from my son. He says, "yo pops, here's a toy for you to play with". It did not take me long to figure it all out......he could not get it to shoot.

I tried 4 different bullets, 2 sizing diameters, a dozen seating depths, and velocities from 700-1200 and the best I got was 4-5" at 50 meters.

Now I know why it showed up....

After doing online research, I found this rifle to be troublesome for many. I "hear" it's the faster twist in the gun. I "hear" that the long 300 grain bullets shoot well. I'm not there yet but this weekend I'm gonna try some 300 gr. 45-90 bullets.

In all seriousness, I have never had a rifle with such a nice bore condition, perfect crown, tight lock up shoot so poorly.

Like I said, your not alone....the experimentation continues...----6

[Fisher-Price]

I wonder how the 73's are doing, they are just becoming available and there is one at my LGS. Same twist as the 92? I have wanted a 92 in 45 colt since I was a teenager, I didn't realize until the internet some years later there never really was such a thing in the old west. I have finally got one to go with the SAA that was a gift from my Dad. If I cannot find a common load for the pair I very much doubt I will keep the rifle.

Please keep me posted with your results.

FP

[Richardx]

I have had great accuracy in my wife's Rossi '92 in .45 with 9.0 grs of Unique under a 250 gr RNFP but I do not know the twist rate.

Try a few of these and good luck, I had a T/C Contender in .45 Colt that made me weep--I could not find it's sweet spot, many loads and bullet weights turned that Contender into Browning Hi Power.

RichardX

[jd45]

Fisher-Price, I know you said you didn't wanna mess with jacketed but my 20" Rossi mfg'd LSI Puma in .45 Colt likes Buck Elliot's H4198 load with Speer .451" 260GR JHPs. My barrel has a 1-in -38"-twist, and a .451" groove diameter. SIXGUN, I fear the .45-90 bullets you want to try may be way too big in diameter to be compatible with your rifles groove diameter. BTW, what IS that "faster" twist you're talking about in your Miroku? Curious.
RichardX, I'll bet your Rossi has the same twist as mine, jd45
Well, I satisfied my curiosity about the twist rate in the Miroku '92 in .45 Colt. It's 1 turn in 26". All barrel lengths. I called Browning in Utah. jd45

[DPris]

Getting one load that'll shoot well in both guns is a matter of experimentation.
The late Bob Milek wrote an article on it many years ago, took him a while to get a combination of powder & bullet that was interchangeable between a levergun & a single-action he had.

Some years back I had a Uberti 66 & a Ruger Vaquero in .44-40.
I had to go through about 40 different powder, charge weight, and bullet combinations to find a load that was acceptable in both.

Even there, it was a matter of compromise.
The load I finally ended up with was not the most accurate through either gun, but was the most accurate through both guns.

Nobody can give you a load that'll be The One True Load for both of your guns, you're just going to have to work it up on your own.
Denis

[Fisher-Price]

I suppose so, the myth of walking into the general store and getting a box of shells that worked in the rifle and the pistol may be just that. I will play with some other loads, my patience may be limited with that. I'm not the kind of guy that enjoys making 10 of this and 10 of that just to test, esp considering the time factor. I prefer to shoot It's why I have the progressive re-loader. I just didn't know if anyone else was having the same trouble or if they had a pistol load that worked in the 1892. Almost wish i hadn't had a reloading spell, I have 1,000 rounds of .45 colt all loaded up, have to shoot the SAA a box or two just to get some brass to work with.

Thanks for all the suggestions,

Fisher-Price

[DPris]

I'm starting to actually force myself to shoot my own guns a little more.
I'll be going through the same process with a 7.5 Colt & a ringlever Miroku '92 in the not-too-distant future.
Right now, working up lead for .38, .45 Colt, .357 Mag in handguns, since those are the priority.
Once those are fully established, I'll do some more experimenting to see what works in leverguns of the same calibers & go on from there.

I like heavier bullets in the .357 & .44 Mag as working loads, have to see how well the Marlins run with those.

I'm not one who enjoys reloading, as such, it's merely a necessity that crops up now & then.
I dunno how much effort I'll end up putting into matching rifles to revolvers.

Part of my problem right now is no Unique or 2400 available & I'm out of Unique entirely.
Denis

[Sixgun]

Just fired this out back. So far I have 85 rds fired for accuracy and the small group fired with the 200 Lymans is the best. This bullet is the 200 gr SWC designed for the 45 auto.

I know how to shoot. Most of my antique Leverguns and Colt Lightnings will do an inch to 1 and 1/2" at 50 yards.

The bullseye is 3". Velocity is "match velocity" ....just under 1100

The group with the 200 Lymans threw one shot. It was not me. This rifle throws flyers all the time.

Standard 45 Colt bullets in the 225 to 260 grain weight about equal what the 300 gr. 45-90 bullets did......terrible

Gonna try some jacketed tomorrow----6

[Malamute]

...If I cannot find a common load for the pair I very much doubt I will keep the rifle.

That situation tends to dampen any enthusiasm I have for a pistol caliber rifle (and I don't have all that much to begin with) If my 45 cal 92 doesn't shoot well with loads I want to use in my pistol, I'll probably have it rebarreled to 44 mag, which is at least a more useful caliber for me. I carry a 44 cal Smith DA far more than I do a 45 cal SA. A better grade barrel and tighter chamber than factory may yield better results overall also.

[Griff]

All 4 of my 45 Colt long guns, (1860 & 1873 Uberti, 1892 Rossi & 1885 Miroku/Winch) are approx. 1:16" twist. Barrel lengths are 24-¼, 24-½, 20" & 24" respectively). All have slugged at .451 and shoot a .452 cast or .451 jacketed adequately. But... it's been so long since I put them on paper... can't remember what they've done.

I do believe that chamber dimensions are problematic with some rifles.

Have to wait till next week and see just what they'll do on paper... maybe Sunday!

[cas]

Years back I had a '94 in 45 Colt and everything I tried in it resulted in sling shot groups. (shooting the bullets with a sling shot at a similar distance would have provided the same size groups.)

The only thing it shot worth a hoot was 300gr bullets pushed to punishing levels, loads I wouldn't print.

[Sixgun]

All 4 of my 45 Colt long guns, (1860 & 1873 Uberti, 1892 Rossi & 1885 Miroku/Winch) are approx. 1:16" twist. Barrel lengths are 24-¼, 24-½, 20" & 24" respectively). All have slugged at .451 and shoot a .452 cast or .451 jacketed adequately. But... it's been so long since I put them on paper... can't remember what they've done.

I do believe that chamber dimensions are problematic with some rifles.

Have to wait till next week and see just what they'll do on paper... maybe Sunday!

Griff,
Forget all of the other brands of rifles......focus on the Miroku.........my results are what other guys tell me....terrible. From what I have been reading, the Miroku is troublesome. Some guys claim great accuracy, but........I know what they SHOULD do. Everyone has their expectations of accuracy and mine is 1 to 1 and 1/2" at 50 yards or 3" at 100.........tang sight. Many of my antiques do better, with clusters of a glob at 50.......at match velocity. My Colt Lightnings in all three calibers will cluster them.

In this Miroku, standard 250 grain bullets go about 3-5" at 50.......WTF! This is at any velocity or seating depths or sizing diameters from 451 to 454. I think you know what my skill level is...no brag.....but it really does not take a Lonns Wigger to shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. (Or however you spell that jerks name......yea...he is a jerk..."The Gunny" told me so........

I tell ya.....even though that boy of mine gave me the rifle, I feel like I'm gonna fly out there, pull him off that locomotive and give him an old fashioned azz whippin'! (Wait here, I'm 59 and he is 41....and in shape..sorry son, ole buddy ole pal.)

This rifle has given me more fits than that old Model 53 in 25-20. Ya ******...figger....a perfect new rifle with a perfect bore with new mechanics and a new sight ought to do better than that....----"The 6"

[Buck Elliott]

I guided Lones Wigger on a combo elk/deer hunt, many years ago, over in the Greys River country of far western Wyoming.. He and I got along just fine, and he was tough, but he was a fine gentleman..

Sorry you can't get your Miroku to shoot.. I had one back in the 80s, in .44 mag that shot OK, but I rebarreled it to .45 Colt, using the same barrel we had destroyed an handful of 94 Winchesters and a 336 Marlin with, when chambered to .454 Casull... Rethreaded and rechambered to .45 Colt, that Shilen tube was a tack-driver...

[Malamute]

Buck, do you happen to recall what the twist rate was and the groove diameter of the Shilen barrel?

[w30wcf]

Sixgun,
Nice work.

Are you experiencing any throat leading?

Awhile back a friend who also had accuracy problems with the same rifle eventually found that the original .45 Colt .456" bullet size tightened groups right up for him. I don't remember what powder or charge weight he used.

w30wcf

[Buck Elliott]

Twist was 1:22..

Rifling resembled Pope (...Henry..??) style, with grooves having a much greater radius than the bore, with maximum dimensions being in the "corners" between lands and grooves.. those "corners" were about .456", wile the radiused "flats" were only about .450".. Surprised me that it shot so well...

[Sixgun]

Sixgun,
Are you experiencing any throat leading? Awhile back a friend who also had accuracy problems with the same rifle eventually found that the original .45 Colt .456" bullet size tightened groups right up for him. I don't remember what powder or charge weight he used.

Jack 0.......no leading anywhere.....bore remains bright---its a tight one at 451. I'll eventually get it figured out. I have a few old Ideal moulds that will cut out a 45 Colt bullet out to .457. The chamber could be sloppy, so maybe a .456 case expander and a fat bullet will help to line it up. ---------6

[w30wcf]

Sixgun,
Hope the larger diameter bullet will tighten things up.
When I use .456/.457 dia. bullets in the .45 Colt, I find that the Lyman .45-70 "M" die works really well in my neck sized cases (sized to about 1/16" below to where the base of the bullet will be).

w30wcf

[Gunnin'Wreck]

I have one of the Miroku 92's in 45 Colt. I have had exactly the opposite experience from what you have had. Mine has the 24" octagonal barrel, and it has been accurate with virtually every load I have put through it. I have consistently shot ragged one-hole groups at 50 yards with loads varying from 200 to 250 grain lead bullets to 240 to 250 grain jacketed bullets. Considering how bad my eyes are getting, I consider this phenomenal accuracy.
I have had the best accuracy with Trail Boss for light loads and 2400 for heavy loads. Accuracy with factory loads has been acceptable (2" at 50 yards) but nothing exceptional. The bullets I have had the best luck with were Lasercast lead bullets and Hornady jacketed bullets. Velocities varied from about 1100 to 1650 fps with 250 grain bullets. I do not have any experience with heavier bullet weights as these loads have done all I needed done.
Both loads will shoot completely through feral hogs weighing up to about 200 lbs. or whtetail deer up to about 130 lbs. Where I hunted, in west Texas, that is about the size of the game.
This is one of my favorite rifles, even though it is getting harder and harder to see the sights.

[jd45]

Gunnin'Wreck, I don't know just how much of a purist you are, but there is a solution to your problem with the ability to see the sights ebbing away. Get a pistol scope, maybe 2x7 power. It has a long eye relief. Mount it forward of the receiver far enough so you get a complete view of the reticle. You may have to play around with positioning along the barrel to get the full view. It's called a scout scope position. Works great....I did it to my Lyman Great Plains frontloader to keep the scope away from the percussion lock system. You may want to keep the irons as long as you can, but sooner or later, this'll be the way to go if you want to continue using the rifle. jd45

[Malamute]

^ ^ As the reality of poorer eyesight, and the dramatic increase in practical usability of glass sinks through my thick skull, I have far less objection to glass than I did just a few years ago. At this point, I don't care if it offends anyones traditional sensibilities, I think glass is a dramatic improvement for a hunting gun or working gun. If folks would rather handicap themselves than keep shooting, and even improve their abilities over what they'd been able to do in the past with young eyes and irons, that's their choice. I'm willing to use worthwhile improvements.

[Gunnin'Wreck]

Thanks for the advice. I am not that much of a purist. The uses I make of this rifle are very close-cover situations with fast shots, sometimes at moving targets, and sometimes with canine assistance. Consequently, I want to maintain the maximum field of view that I can. I am currently looking at putting one of the small red-dot sights on at the rear of the receiver. If that doesn't work, the scout scope option will be next. This M92 is one of my favorite rifles, and I am determined to figure out something that works. Thanks again for the advice.

[Snaketail]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion - was working up a load for my .45 Colt lever gun and ...well, you know.

I spent two years trying to get my Rossi M92 .45 Colt rifle to shoot like I wanted it to. It finally came together when I did a couple of things:
A: I used Dyna-Tek Bore Coat in my rifle http://www.dyna-tek.com/Bore-Coat-Article-s/1839.htm
B: Stopped using .452 bullets and went to .454
C. "Discovered" the Hank Williams Jr. (Bocephus) load - 20gr IMR 4227 under a 255gr RNFP cast bullet
D. Use a tight roll crimp - tighter than you think you'd need

The bore cote adds a micron thickness to the bore (makes it tighter - a micron is sometimes defined at the length our hair grows in the time it takes to read this sentence!)
The .454 bullets lead less and seem to close my groups up considerably
IMR 4227 works just fine. I can duplicate the fps with Unique, but the results are not the same.
Tight roll crimp - seems the .45Colt and IMR 4227 need to build up some steam before heading down the bore - the tight crimp gives it the chance.

My rifle has a 1:30 twist and a 20" barrel. Whatever voodoo steps A through D have done seems to work for me.

I liked the results so much I used the Dyna-Tek in my new rifle too, before I ever shot it - makes cleanup faster too. I honestly can't say this is the step that made the difference, but I was ready to get rid of that rifle until I tried this combo of bore coat, load and crimp. Now I win Lever Action matches where I used to be an "also shot." Gonna keep the rifle now.

M

[Sixgun]

Snaketail,
You just brought up a sore memory. I never did fool much with that rifle but I did have some semi-luck with the 200 grain Lyman SWC sized .454 a few months back.

I ain't going through all that agg with the coating. I've had antique rifles with only traces of rifling do better so this gun ought to shoot.

Tomorrow's another day for experimention-------------6

[FatJackDurham]

I don't have any of the experience that these guys have, but here is my 2 cents:

1) For SA shooting, the rifle targets are close enough that evne 6 inch at 50 yards is fine.
2) Try many different bullet sizes, lengths, hardnesses, etc.
3) Cast both the chamber throat and the muzzle. Even if you slug through at .451, there might be a wide throat that could upset the bullet or runout at the muzzle (unlikely in a new gun, but possible).
4) Check the twist rate and use an online calculator to make sure you are getting stability
5) Try black powder loads. Lighter smokeless loads can have widely varying ignition results. BP gives very consistant results and will help eliminate the powder side of the equation during experimenting. For example, I found 3 to 15% variations with cowboy load muzzle velocity for the lighter loads with unique, but less than 1% variations with BP for the same bullet and brass.
6) Try a different or magnum primer. I found CCI primers had poor ignition with a "tuned" lever gun that had a lighter strike. The Federal primers were more consistant and the magnums even more so.
7) Lap the bore. You can try running a regimen of fire lapping through the bore, or do it with lead slugs.

I am sure I am stating what everyone here knows, but that was my experience.
1) Rossi 92 - poor groups in 357 magnum - Black powder shot very well, changed from Unique to 4227 and federal primers
2) Rolling Block number 5 7mm - 12 inch groups at 25 yards - cast the muzzle and discovered both severe run-out and a .287 bore instead of .284. Recrowned, and switched to a .287 round. 2" at 100 yards
3) Uberti .357 SAA. Tight bore, loose cylinder, couldn't hit at 25 yards. Sold it.