need mild .45-70 load

[BrentD]

In two weeks, I will meeting up with my shooting partner and sometime gunsmith in Raton for shooting CLA and BPCR matches. While we are there, I'm going to be reintroduced to my square-bolt 1895 Marlin. It is now wearing a new barrel, magazine tube, carrier and some other things and my partner will carry it there from California while I bring the fitted but not finished stocks and some ammo so we can try it out for functionality. I'm going to end up shooting only blackpowder in this when it is done, but for now, I thought I would make up some mild smokeless loads using stuff on hand. The problem is that I don't have a good, safe recipe.

I'll be using a 475 gr cast bullet and I have both 3031 and 4198 on hand. Can someone suggest good load for this?

Thanks,
Brent
This is what it used to look like when I saw it last - the wood and barrel are now gone and the extra holes are now filled and things will be quite different when we next meet again.
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... 13%20A.jpg
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... 13%20C.jpg
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... 13%20B.jpg

[Malamute]

Do you have access to a Lyman reloading manual? I have the regular one, which has some cast loads, and the cast bullet manual, which has more loads and different bullets. I'll check when I can, but am a bit slow motion right now.

[Tycer]

You didn't list it, however 13 grains of Unique would be dandy.

[AJMD429]

I'd check out LoadData.com or AmmoGuide.com. The first one gives only 'factory' loads and is a bit difficult to sort/search, and the second one gives both factory and 'user' loads, with much better search features.

Well worth the $19.95 or whatever per year.

[Pete44ru]

.


I used to make up BP Gallery Loads for my .45-70, using C&B-type plain round .457" balls and charges of FFFg Holy Black.

The 3gr FFFG loads shot/felt like a .22; the 15gr FFFg loads shot/felt like a .38 Special.

I used standard primers & seated the ball with a wooden dowel/mallet - then crimped the cases with a washer (with an approprite-sized hole) held against the big end of a sparkplug socket, with everything squeezed in a bench vise.


.

[BrentD]

We want to test feeding chambering and extraction so I will stick with a pretty conventional bullet and brass combo. I don't have Unique, so I'll look up a few loads. I have the most recent edition of Lyman's book that MLV wrote. Where it is, is hard to say but its around here somewhere.

[Malamute]

The Lyman manuals show 38.5 grs 3031 with a 420 gr cast bullets as a factory equivalent load suitable for trapdoors. I believe the velocity in the low or mid 1300's. Should be a pleasant and usable load for an old 95.

That or may drop to 36 if your gun is in any way less that top condition regarding lockup, and the slightly heavier bullet weight.

[jdad]

Low velocity load data, with lots of choices.
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[BrentD]

I was looking at the Hodgdon Reloading sight and found some interesting things.
When selecting for caliber, they list 3 flavors of .45-70s. Trapdoors, levers and "Modern rifles" (I always thought of levers as modern but anyway...).

So, I picked Levers and got these for Minimum Starting and Max loads for a 405 bullet
powder weight fps Pressure ..... weight fps Pressure
H4895 50.0gr 1,614 19,200 CUP ..... 55.0gr 1,859 26,500 CUP
IMR 3031 51.0gr 1,809 26,900 CUP ..... 55.0gr 1,971 37,300 CUP
H4198 46.0gr 1,854 29,500 CUP ..... 50.5gr 2,002 39,400 CUP

These all seem way too hot for what I want and a plain base lead bullet.

So, I selected the Trapdoor loads and got these

H4895 40.0gr 1,424 14,900 CUP ..... 48.0gr 1,645 18,900 CUP
IMR 3031 45.5gr 1,597 17,300 CUP ..... 48.5gr 1,706 21,100 CUP
H4198 27.0gr 1,251 14,200 CUP ..... 31.0gr 1,459 17,100 CUP

These are much more what I was looking for, but the curious thing to me is that they "minimum loads" for a lever gun start higher than the starting loads for a trapdoor? In fact the heaviest trapdoor load is lighter than the minimum load for the lever. That also seems a bit extreme, but I suppose lawyers were involved. Still, the fact that lever loads START above the starting trap door load makes no sense. Why can't a lower charge be used in a Lever gun?

[jdad]

I was looking at the Hodgdon Reloading sight and found some interesting things.
When selecting for caliber, they list 3 flavors of .45-70s. Trapdoors, levers and "Modern rifles" (I always thought of levers as modern but anyway...).

So, I picked Levers and got these for Minimum Starting and Max loads for a 405 bullet
powder weight fps Pressure ..... weight fps Pressure
H4895 50.0gr 1,614 19,200 CUP ..... 55.0gr 1,859 26,500 CUP
IMR 3031 51.0gr 1,809 26,900 CUP ..... 55.0gr 1,971 37,300 CUP
H4198 46.0gr 1,854 29,500 CUP ..... 50.5gr 2,002 39,400 CUP

These all seem way too hot for what I want and a plain base lead bullet.

So, I selected the Trapdoor loads and got these

H4895 40.0gr 1,424 14,900 CUP ..... 48.0gr 1,645 18,900 CUP
IMR 3031 45.5gr 1,597 17,300 CUP ..... 48.5gr 1,706 21,100 CUP
H4198 27.0gr 1,251 14,200 CUP ..... 31.0gr 1,459 17,100 CUP

These are much more what I was looking for, but the curious thing to me is that they "minimum loads" for a lever gun start higher than the starting loads for a trapdoor? In fact the heaviest trapdoor load is lighter than the minimum load for the lever. That also seems a bit extreme, but I suppose lawyers were involved. Still, the fact that lever loads START above the starting trap door load makes no sense. Why can't a lower charge be used in a Lever gun?

Did you check out the link I posted above? There are many loads UNDER 1000fps using a plain base 405 and pistol powders.

[BrentD]

yes, but they did not list the powders I wanted to use. This is only for 10 rounds to test the functioning of the action and chambering/extraction.

[Blaine]

Nice Rifle....H-4198 is versatile in 45-70. 25-30 grains will give you a trapdoor load. (I use 43 grains for a hunting load...sweet!!)
Screen Shot from the Hogden site:

[BrentD]

That's a pretty stiff load there. Do you use jacketed or gas check bullets then? I would think it was a bit too much for plain base lead like I use (25:1 or softer).

I'm using 19.25 grs of 4198 in my .38-55 with plain lead bullets. Seems to work pretty well.

[Malamute]

These are much more what I was looking for, but the curious thing to me is that they "minimum loads" for a lever gun start higher than the starting loads for a trapdoor? In fact the heaviest trapdoor load is lighter than the minimum load for the lever. That also seems a bit extreme, but I suppose lawyers were involved. Still, the fact that lever loads START above the starting trap door load makes no sense. Why can't a lower charge be used in a Lever gun?

I doubt it has anything to do with lawyers. I'd say the "starting" loads for each type are a percentage below what they determined the max to be. You can use any lighter level load in a stronger gun of course, but the data is set up to reflect what each type will do safely for max for the type.

In general, when looking at powders, the slowest for a given application will tend to use the most amount (better loading density),...and,...peak in pressure more slowly, a point many seem to miss. I've never chosen rifle powders because they used the least amount of powder to achieve the desired velocity, more the opposite, or at least in the middle burn rate and volume. The better the loading density, generally the more consistent the ignition and less unburned powder.

[Blaine]

That's a pretty stiff load there. Do you use jacketed or gas check bullets then? I would think it was a bit too much for plain base lead like I use (25:1 or softer).

I'm using 19.25 grs of 4198 in my .38-55 with plain lead bullets. Seems to work pretty well.

I generally use the Remington JSP 405s....But, I have used hardcast Aardvark 405s, 300s, and Some Lasercast 350s with up to 46 grains with no leading....My shoulders hurt too much for those these day....The only 45-70 I have now is the 12# Sharps.....

[Old Time Hunter]

Just my personal favorite...405gr sized .459 w/29.0 grains of H4198 seems to work for me. ~1350 fps out of my Trapdoor (rifle), 1310 fps Trapdoor (carbine), and 1325 fps for my 1886.

[Griff]

My favorite powder for duplicating BP pressure loads is XMP5744 (Accurate). Both Accurate and Lyman list loads for it, but even for the same power level (Trapdoor/Lever/Ruger #1), there's some discrepancy in the data... at least for the 405 lead bullets.

In my 1886 (Browning), I use a 325gr flat nose and load it in front of 29grs, which keeps the velocity from the 26" rifle below 1400fps. Lyman's 49th edition shows 29 grains to the max for the Trapdoor data and lists 1313fps. Same charge with the 330gr bullet is listed at 1357fps, which is close to what I'm getting... I'm not using something as soft as 25:1... but I'm not getting any leading with my straight wheelweights... any faster and I would need to harden up my bullets.

[flatnose]

I use 34.5 grains of IMR4198 under a plain based 405grn bullet in my 1886 miroku/chester. Its one of the most accurate loads I have, and comfortable in the recoil dept. Maybe 1500fps..I don't know.

[Grizz]

I shot 50 rounds of Marshall's 45/70/325 loaded over 14gr Trailboss in starline brass with cci-200 primers. hit the gong every time but it was in easy eyesight so can't speak to paper punching potential.

trailboss seems to be more popular now than it was then.

I didn't chrono this but it is a light recoiling load with a noticeable lag between the boom and the clang. Blaine and Fred shot it, maybe Blaine has better recall than I do.

someone with the software might be able to come close to the exit velocity. the bullets are hard cast and gas checked, they won't lead at 1900 fps.

[Blaine]

I shot 50 rounds of Marshall's 45/70/325 loaded over 14gr Trailboss in starline brass with cci-200 primers. hit the gong every time but it was in easy eyesight so can't speak to paper punching potential.

trailboss seems to be more popular now than it was then.

I didn't chrono this but it is a light recoiling load with a noticeable lag between the boom and the clang. Blaine and Fred shot it, maybe Blaine has better recall than I do.

someone with the software might be able to come close to the exit velocity. the bullets are hard cast and gas checked, they won't lead at 1900 fps.

I can't recall what I had for breakfast yesterday.
I do believe that you have never put together a bad 45-70 load....That 525(?) is still my favorite....punched through a record number of water-filled gallon jugs and didn't hurt to fire.