OT-Problem with Cimarron Firearms Co.

[ejc]

I purchased a Cimarron Bisley revolver in 45 Colt. The first time I fired it, it was grouping very poorly. After I got home and cleaned the gun, I slugged the barrel and it measured .458 inch( should be .451-.452 for 45 Colt). I shipped it to Cimarron and included a slug from the barrel with it. Two months later I sent an e-mail inquiring if they had an estimate of when the gun would be returned to me. I got a response that they had fired the gun and got a five shot group of 2 7/8 inch at 10 yds. Using Black Hills ammo and wanted to know what ammo I had used. I responded with the ammo I used but then explained that I had not returned the gun because of inaccuracy but because the barrel groove diameter was too large and asked if they had measured the barrel. Shortly I got a call from a Cimarron VP who called to talk at me not with me. He appeared angry and told me about the group size they had shot, that there was nothing wrong with the gun, it would be shipped back to me the next day, and if I had any further questions that I needed to address them to him. The implication was that the group size they got when they fired the gun is ample proof that the barrel is not oversize. I find that to be an interesting technical approach to determining a handgun’s groove diameter.

For two weeks the gun did not ship until I called and asked to speak to the president of the company. I then received a phone call from the shipping clerk giving me the tracking number of the shipment.

When the gun returned there was nothing with it to give any indication that they had measured the barrel. I took it to the gunsmith at Gander Mountain and asked him to measure the groove diameter of the barrel and give me a written statement of his findings which confirmed the .458 dimension.

I sent a fax to the president of the company going over everything that had transpired and included the statement from the gunsmith. I had not received a response in 11 days so I sent another fax telling him how disappointed I was and that I would not contact them again. I’ll just order a replacement barrel and get it replaced and chalk this up to experience.

[JReed]

.458 you could shoot 45-70 bullets threw that thing! What do the chambers measure out to be?

Sorry to hear about your poor dealings I dont have any personel experience with Cimarron as I have not bought any of their products. But that sounds like bad customer service to me.

Not to high jack your topic but I notice that you are down in Huntsville I have been stationed at Redstone a couple of times and always liked it down there.

[J Miller]

.458" is well in excess of SAAMI specs. This gun is defective. I'd not spend a dime on buying parts. I'd contact SAAMI and anybody that could get involved and force the issue. That gun is out of specs for the caliber.

Oh, and 2-7/8" group at 10 yards (30 feet) is pathetic. All of my .45 Colts are capable of 2" groups at 25 yards (75 feet). If that is within their specs then they are selling JUNK.


Joe

[Jarhead]

Thanks for posting...I will steer clear of Cimarron products for sure!

[sore shoulder]

Thanks for posting...I will steer clear of Cimarron products for sure!

Yea, seconded here. If true, that is some pee poor service.

[ejc]

JReed, the chambers measure .455. While I would prefer tht they be smaller I don't have a problem with them at that size. My Colt SAA also has .455 throats and it shoots 1 3/8 in groups at 25 yds.

I too first came to Huntsville in the Army. I got out of the military in 1981 and have been in Huntsville since that time.

JMiller, all of my handguns will shoot smaller that 2 7/8 inch groups at 25 yds also. That is why I was so baffled that they thought that group at 10 yds proved anything. The VP also told me that his people told him that if the barrel was the size I said it was, that it wouldn't even hit the paper at 10 yds. I doubt whoever said that has ever fired a gun that they know had a .458 groove diameter until they fired mine. I could understand thinking that I just didn't know how to measure the barrel, but you would think that when I provided a gunsmith's measurements that they would at least talk to me about it.

This gun was made by Uberti and I have another gun made by them that has a .451 groove diameter so I don't think this is normal for their guns. Maybe on one day someone made a mistake and used a 45 cal rifle rifling tool by mistake to rifle handgun barrels.

[Ben_Rumson]

I read somewhere awhile back that when one purchases from gun sellers that have their brand name on a firearm that you have to settle for their service policies..Even though you have an Uberti made revolver you don't get Uberti's service policy...Last time I checked Barretta handles Uberti warranty & repair and have heard they have a quick turn around.. I think Joe's idea is a good one.. maybe if you forward that thought to Cimmaron they might step up & do right...Don't forget to tell them too, how crappy that 30 foot group really is...

[Grizzly Adams]

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I have used Cimarron products for many years, and have never had any problems with either the product or with the folks there. Hope this is not a new trend!

Mistakes happen. I know of a fella that bought a new single action revolver, and discovered that someone had put a 38sp barrel on it. Problem was that the cylinder was for a 45!

[J Miller]

ejc,

If that gun has .455" throats, it should then have a .454" grove diameter barrel. That would be at least match.
But the .455" throats with a .458" barrel is upside down.

Your other guns with the big throats most likely have .451" - .452" barrels.
That would explain their grouping as good as they do.


Joe

[Charles]

Lot of luck... The companies have pretty loose standards. They think if you can hit your hat at ten paces, they have made you an acceptable firearm. About 20 years ago, I went round and round with Ruger over a 41 Magnum with a groove diamer of .414. I sent it to them three time and still no new barrel. I gave up and swaped it off.

If you gun is unsafe, they will fix it, but it if gives lack luster accuracy, most often you are stuck.

[Ysabel Kid]

Good to know, just wish you didn't have to learn the hard way on our behalf. I can't believe any company that doesn't stand behind what they sell will stay in business very long...

[Tycer]

What's the guys contact info? I would like to tell him that I will never buy a Cimarron and why.

[ejc]

Charles, I don't know what their policy is, but their website has a chart with what the bore and groove diameters are for all their weapons. It shows .442 for the bore and .450 for the groove diameters for a 45 Colt. They never said that the group they shot met their standards, they told me that the barrel was not .458, implying that the group proves it. He told me that his people told him that if the barrel was the size I said it was, that the gun wouldn't even hit the paper at 10 yds. I don't believe that anyone there has ever shot a handgun where they knew the barrel was .458 to be able to make such a statement, that is until they fired mine.

I did not return the gun for poor accuracy, I returned it for an oversized barrel.

[505stevec]

Just a thought, maybe when something like this happens to one of us we should all get the info for the company and send in emails of displeasure. Thus we might be able to help a friend while sending a strong message that we disagree with their company policy. After all is this not a form of lobbying like the NRA?

[Ysabel Kid]

You have them. I did not know they posted the barrel specifications. Your gun does not meet those specifications, and you can easily make the point that part of your purchase decision was based on their posted data. After all, had you known the bore was .458", would you have purchased the gun? No.

I'd write up a letter, detailing the interactions, and tell them you want a new gun altogether (not just a new barrel; they had their chance to make it right the "easy way" before). Print off the web page with the specs and include it with the letter. Let them know that if you do not receive a new gun, you will take them to court. You have a slam-dunk for a small-claims action, which will cost them a ton more than the cost of a new replacement gun. If you wanted to get into a false or deceptive advertizing claim, well...

Either way, it should scare them into doing what they should have done up front - the right thing. This makes me think they have a bunch of over-bored revolvers on their hands, otherwise they would have made it right in the first place...

[sore shoulder]

This makes me think they have a bunch of over-bored revolvers on their hands, otherwise they would have made it right in the first place...

More like some rifle barrel blanks that ended up getting chopped into pistol barrells.

[Noah Zark]

ejc,

If that gun has .455" throats, it should then have a .454" groove diameter barrel. That would be at least match.
But the .455" throats with a .458" barrel is upside down.

+1.

I'd suggest that you drop the discussion of the group size with the factory, because Cimarron is hanging their hat on everything being OK because the gun groups "good enough." The issue is the groove diameter.

Instead, take the discussion to the next level in the organization and concentrate solely on the hard facts -- the bore is too large compared to SAAMI specs and other industry specs. Ask them to justify why their barrel is so much larger, and tell them that you want a barrel installed with a .453-.454 groove diameter.

Noah

[ejc]

Noah Zark, for me the discussion was never about the group size. They brought it up. In my fax to the president I only mentioned that assessing barrel groove diameter by a group size was not a very scientific method. The gun was returned for an oversized barrel not for poor accuracy.

Ysabel Kid, I explored legal action and a lawyer told me that while I could file a complaint in small claims court that because they weren't licensed to do business in my state there was no way to collect from them even if I got a judgement against them.

[JReed]

I would email them the link to this post. I just looked it has been read in excess of 420 times. Include the info that you found from their own site.

As for me I have looked at many Cimarron products but after hearing how they treated you I will not be buying any thing from them.

[brucew44guns]

This stinks when a big company like that just shoves it up your nose and tells you to eat it. It would have cost them very little to replace the barrel in their shop setting. Imagine the outcome to them if you were singing the praises here on Leverguns of how great their service was. Bunch of greedy so-in-so's most likely. Hope you get some kind of better results soon.

[Hobie]

I've heard both good and bad (now) about Cimarron but have never had any experience with them or their products.

Frankly, and if you have to deal in customer service you understand this, I don't see how ANY business can get by with insulting, inexpert customer service. It just does so much damage to a company I simply can't see any company KNOWINGLY doing such a thing.

I suggest that you write a registered, restricted delivery letter directly to the president (the BIG Kahuna) of Cimarron explaining everything with all the documentation. Explain too how you know that shooting the gun is NOT a valid measurement of the bore diameter and compare it to their literature. Be polite but don't forget to give them your impression of their customer service staff. It might get you no where but it might do a lot for them as well as for you.

[Marlin336W]

This makes me think they have a bunch of over-bored revolvers on their hands, otherwise they would have made it right in the first place...

More like some rifle barrel blanks that ended up getting chopped into pistol barrells.

hey! hey! I think your on to something.

[ejc]

Hobie, what you say makes a lot of sense, but I feel that I have already done that in the fax I sent him and have gotten no response. Also I have received a private message from someone who has had a similar experience to mine and was dealing directly with the president of the company.

I have learned over the years that how a staff conducts business is a direct reflection of the character and integrity of the man at the top. With the treatment I got from his staff I was not surprised that I did not hear from him.

[KirkD]

Up to this point, I had been admiring some of the stuff that Cimmaron sells. Your experience has soured me on purchasing anything from them. As I see it, here are the facts:

1. You slugged the barrel and found that it failed to meet SAAMI specs.
2. Your gunsmith slugged the barrel and found that it failed to meet SAAMI specs.

Conclusion: The gun is defective and the company is obligated to honor its warranty.

[rangerider7]

I just called a man that I have done business with at Cimarron Arms that has been very helpful to me in the past. I ask him to look into this matter and he said he would. I ask him to look at the post here and go from there. He said he would. Lets see if things can be worked out.

[Jay Bird]

Guess I won't be buying any Cimarron's in the future.

[ejc]

Guys, I received a call from the parts/shipping person at Cimarron who said they would have the gun picked up and sent to them. He said that they would remeasure the barrel(interesting term since there is no indication they measured it the first time) and rebarrel the gun if it is out of spec.

I am going out of town tomorrow and won't be back until Monday so it will get picked up on Tuesday.

I'll update you whenever the gun returns.

[sore shoulder]

All hail the power of the internet!

[Bigahh]

I saw this post, and decided to email the Parts Dept. this link. Here is the response I got back..

Thanks for the heads up. We are aware of this situation and are taking steps to try to make this customer happy.

Kirk S. Kinley
Parts/Shipping
830.997.9090 ex. 30
Parts@cimarron-firearms.com[/quote]

[JReed]

And the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Hope they get it fixed for you.

[oldgerboy]

I just removed them from my "Favorites". Even if your misfortune is not the normal, your treatment along with the problem is enough to scratch them from my future.

[horsesoldier03]

Send one more email to them and attach the link of your post to it. Be sure to let them know that we are all tired of manufacturers that refuse to stand behind their products!

[Ysabel Kid]

Send one more email to them and attach the link of your post to it. Be sure to let them know that we are all tired of manufacturers that refuse to stand behind their products!

+1 Cimarron blew it here, big time. The onus is on them to come through for you now with flying colors.

[Griff]

Guys,

I know Mike Harvey from a long time association with cowboy action shooting. A nicer person to do business with you'll not soon meet. I have had dealings with them on several ocassions and always found them to be forthright and upstanding is said dealings. I would not let an isolated occurence be your guide for not choosing them for the guns of your choice. Cimarron Arms is a big supporter of cowboy action shoots, has been more than generous with our club for many years.

Sometimes, things fall thru the cracks, get looked at by the wrong person, or somehow some slight offense is taken where none was intended. I would not hesitate to buy a Cimarron arm; and in fact am looking at a couple for my next purchase... just can't make up my mind what it is I really want next. (Well after another 2nd Series Colt 1851).

ejc, a fax is unlike a registered, receipt requested letter... sometimes an expectation exists that certain protocols will be observed in the resolution of a problem. I hope this issue can be resolved to your satisfaction.

rangerider7, good job, again you prove the value of a gentleman. Sometimes the right contact is necessary. What they say about, "it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know," is very often true. That's nothing against Cimarron Arms or any other business, but just a fact of life. I can't tell how many times I've had co-workers tell me, "aw, jezzz, I was just at that place, you'll never meet as big a bunch of a-- h---- in your life." Yet, I go, have the time of my life and enjoy their company and folks that work there. Expectations are often reflected in our body language, tone or other non-verbal communications and illicit a negative reaction.

[RSY]

Using the internet to gain satisfaction in a matter like this is well within the realm of fair play. However, don't sell them down the river, just yet. As a rule, they sell some fine products and service is usually stellar. I don't know what happened here, but I have a feeling it'll work out, at this point.

They are "right down the road" from me and I love stopping in at Texas Jack's after poking around the Beckendorf gallery next door. If you're in the area, I highly recommend doing the same.

scott

[claybob86]

And then I hear pretty regularly that Marlin, when they happen to let a lemon get out the door, takes care of the problem to the customer's complete satisfaction every time. Without the "it's who you know, good ole boy network" type stuff. I'll think long and hard before ever ordering anything from Cimarron after hearing this. A business needs to take proper care of all their customers, all the time. Not just the ones who have buddies that know someone in the right place.

[RSY]

And then I hear pretty regularly that Marlin, when they happen to let a lemon get out the door, takes care of the problem to the customer's complete satisfaction every time. Without the "it's who you know, good ole boy network" type stuff. I'll think long and hard before ever ordering anything from Cimarron after hearing this. A business needs to take proper care of all their customers, all the time. Not just the ones who have buddies that know someone in the right place.

Suit yourself. I can respect that. But, to a large degree, you're making a bad apples-to-oranges comparison:

Marlin manufactures firearms, Cimarron does NOT. Their stuff is from Italy (Uberti, etc.).

There is a difference. Not one that excuses bad customer service, but a BIG difference, nonetheless.

scott

[claybob86]

That should be Cimarron's problem, not their customer's problem.

[Rusty]

You might try talking to John Taffin or the brothers Quinn and see if any of them know someone in the company. It would be nice to see the company stand by their stuff.
As it is now I don't think I'd ever buy one of their products. Not because the problems with the gun. that can happen. The thing that makes it all so hard to swallow is them not doing the right thing.

[cowboykell]

I bought a Cimarron 1872 open top .38 special. Great fit and finish (the case colors leave something to be desired) and very acurrate. I would buy again.

[Hobie]

Hobie, what you say makes a lot of sense, but I feel that I have already done that in the fax I sent him and have gotten no response. Also I have received a private message from someone who has had a similar experience to mine and was dealing directly with the president of the company.

I have learned over the years that how a staff conducts business is a direct reflection of the character and integrity of the man at the top. With the treatment I got from his staff I was not surprised that I did not hear from him.

I understand your point but you never know until YOU have done it. I have to agree with Griff that some protocols in business like interaction should be observed as they eliminate misunderstandings.

Now I see that a resolution approaches. That's wonderful. I hope you get just what you wanted.

[cimgunner]

Hello,
My name is Chris and I work for Cimarron, have for over two years. I am also an avid SASS shooter.
Mike Harvey asked me to post a reply to this thread after I showed it to him. First let me say, that after receiving the fax, the shipping department was instructed to send a call tag for the gun. This happened before this post. The shipping department had not done it as of yesterday, something we found out after hearing about this post.
When we originally had the gun and slug, Mike measured the slug sent with the gun, which was rough. He measured the slug to be at .451. He regrets not slugging the barrel himself the first time. We did slug a sample of guns in the same production run. All slugged dead on to SAAMI specs.
We did shoot the gun, off hand, at 10 yards. Got a group of 4 hits in 1 3/4". One stray at 1" out. We all know this would be even better off a ransom rest.
So judging by the slug measurement and this grouping, it seemed the gun was fine.
We are bringing the gun back, we will slug it ourselves, and if out of spec we will put on a new barrel.

[sore shoulder]

Hello,
My name is Chris and I work for Cimarron, have for over two years. I am also an avid SASS shooter.
Mike Harvey asked me to post a reply to this thread after I showed it to him. First let me say, that after receiving the fax, the shipping department was instructed to send a call tag for the gun. This happened before this post. The shipping department had not done it as of yesterday, something we found out after hearing about this post.
When we originally had the gun and slug, Mike measured the slug sent with the gun, which was rough. He measured the slug to be at .451. He regrets not slugging the barrel himself the first time. We did slug a sample of guns in the same production run. All slugged dead on to SAAMI specs.
We did shoot the gun, off hand, at 10 yards. Got a group of 4 hits in 1 3/4". One stray at 1" out. We all know this would be even better off a ransom rest.
So judging by the slug measurement and this grouping, it seemed the gun was fine.
We are bringing the gun back, we will slug it ourselves, and if out of spec we will put on a new barrel.

Kudos for being courageous enough to post this here and open youselves up to the public scrutiny of some crusty shooters. I hope you will let us know your findings. Just curious though, when they measured the slug at .451, was that the land or the groove.? What would you measure?

[Modoc ED]

Hello,
My name is Chris and I work for Cimarron, have for over two years. I am also an avid SASS shooter.
Mike Harvey asked me to post a reply to this thread after I showed it to him. First let me say, that after receiving the fax, the shipping department was instructed to send a call tag for the gun. This happened before this post. The shipping department had not done it as of yesterday, something we found out after hearing about this post.
When we originally had the gun and slug, Mike measured the slug sent with the gun, which was rough. He measured the slug to be at .451. He regrets not slugging the barrel himself the first time. We did slug a sample of guns in the same production run. All slugged dead on to SAAMI specs.
We did shoot the gun, off hand, at 10 yards. Got a group of 4 hits in 1 3/4". One stray at 1" out. We all know this would be even better off a ransom rest.
So judging by the slug measurement and this grouping, it seemed the gun was fine.
We are bringing the gun back, we will slug it ourselves, and if out of spec we will put on a new barrel.

That sounds fair. Decent of you to respond to this thread with your boss's knowledge.

[rangerider7]

Thanks Chris. I was sure there was a way to work this out to everyone's satisfaction.

[SmokeEater2]

Thanks for posting cimgunner. I'm glad to see that a company representative will take the time to address concerns on a public forum such as this,I think it speaks well for the company and it certainly makes me feel better about the Cimarron guns I have.

[JReed]

Thanks for the info Chris. As the others said it speaks well of you and the company to post here and give us an update from y'alls end.

[Ysabel Kid]

Thanks for the info Chris. As the others said it speaks well of you and the company to post here and give us an update from y'alls end.

+1. Glad to hear you want to check this out and make it right!

[Quick Karl]

I have an Uberti SAA clone - you can actually see a circular flaw in the rifling 1/3 of the way from the muzzle, but the fricken thing shoots awesome groups.

It's not a Colt, but it didn't cost as much as a Colt, and it's fun as heck shooting it.

[Hankster]

I've got an Uberti SAA clone in .357.....and of the 7 handguns here....I shoot it better than all the rest! (semi .22 and 9mm, DA .22 and .357, SA .357, .22 and .44)
Great gun.....