weight lifting questions

[Grizz]

if you are using a certain weight at a certain rep, and double the weight, and halve the reps, is it the same thing?

not a trick question, I'd really like to know from someone who does.

and another thing, is it better to eat before a workout, or after?

what's the good balance of proteins and carbs?

. . .

TIA
Grizz

[jruppert2]

The thing to be careful about when going to a heavier weight is not injuring yourself. I would encourage you to increase the weight gradually. Dont be in a hurry. Working out is about working to get fit or maintaining a level of fitness. It's not about strictly making gains. To injure a tendon or legiment is the quickest way to interrupt your routine. As far as eating is concerned, just listen to your body. I prefer to eat afterwards but that is just me.

[FWiedner]

It's not equivalent. You're an organism, not a machine.

It's best to eat before your workout.

[GonnePhishin]

It's best to eat before your workout.

Yeah, but ya might puke because of all the strain and pressure on yer system

[BrentD]

Have any of you seen a weight lifting program specifically for offhand rifle shooting?

I'd be interested in such.

[Blaine]

Have any of you seen a weight lifting program specifically for offhand rifle shooting?

I'd be interested in such.

This may, or may not be helpful:
Slowly wind it up, and let it back down....

[Grizz]

OK then. thanks. one vote to eat after and one vote to eat before, that's a strategy I can manage.

any input, or, from your perspective, output concerning balance between carbs and proteins.

I find I do better and feel better when I am keeping the protein up, when traveling iron-butt I max out proteins on the road. It helps me stay awake, alert, and anticipating.

I am thinking of switching to LARD for frying eggs. It takes very little and it fuels the body better than olive oil or butter. Any disparaging or encouraging words, home on the range style? I can't eat bacon or I'd just do it that way.

[Blaine]

This is "Army Training Talk", so who knows? They would say the PT at Zero Dark Thirty without breakfast was better because you have already used up the easy calories, and hard work would cause you to dig into your stored calories (fat).....beats me. Between being younger, and PT I could eat three horses a day and maintain (sort of) my weight....

[madman4570]

if you are using a certain weight at a certain rep, and double the weight, and halve the reps, is it the same thing?

not a trick question, I'd really like to know from someone who does.

and another thing, is it better to eat before a workout, or after?

what's the good balance of proteins and carbs?

. . .

TIA
Grizz

Streetstar (Doug) is the man with the proper plan for the answers.
He is extremely knowledgeable on correct eating/workout routines etc.

Usually that double/half deal does not work that way.
Example you bench 200lbs 20 reps. Benching 400lbs 10 reps good luck with that one.
I tend to do an in between meaning enough weight for growth but not too much to tear stuff and end my lifting.
What works for me now(only myself)is the 15 rep deal. Meaning at 15 reps I had enough. Then do another set say 14 reps within 7-10 mins. Then another set say 13 reps within 7-10 mins , then another 7-10 mins and the last one as many as you can but with only a rest time of 1-2 mins.

I eat about 45 mins prior to lifting and lift at 10am. That time for myself I have the most energy.
The proper meal balance again ask Doug. I usually have 3 eggs/2 wheat toast/coffee/protein shake.

If you are new to lifting I would think a light weight to start and work to do say 20reps with proper form.
As you get above 20 reps you can add at little(say 5 lbs)working back to 20 reps.
The higher reps/more sets will aid in definition and endurance as well.
Some people like higher weight lower reps, yes you will grow faster but with older people especially ones have not lifted before that can get touchy. I suppose you could do the 7-10 rep deal but I have found the 15rep thing to be my sweet spot??
I tend to be lazy, meaning trying to get the most for the least. Basically, my main deal is (Bench Presses/Squats/Preacher Curls/Lat Pull Downs/Leg Extensions) with doing them as follows Bench Presses, Squats--Friday and Tuesday and other three exercises ---Wednesday and Saturday.
Do not get hung up on the amount(macho thing)usually that is when someone gets hurt. Do it for only you and have fun doing it.

Where is Doug? That dude is one fine specimen.

[Pete44ru]

.

Count me "out" - Like the guy on TV said: "I lift things up....... And put them down". .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7gzmoqmL7g


.

[Griff]

NO, two ratios between reps & weight are NOT the same... Weight increases will eventually build strength while added reps builds endurance... It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Add strength, or increase stamina.

Do you fuel your car before or after a trip??? But, as with everything involving the human body, it best handles things in moderation. Eat lightly before your workout... then refuel! (Again, in moderation).

You're best advised to see a nutritionist and get specific advice in accordance with your body type, energy output and metabolism.

[shooter]

Typically the lighter weight/more reps builds less bulky muscle and increases your endurance above what heavier weight/less reps will. If you are wanting to build maximum strength and muscle mass, go heavier. If you are wanting less bulk and more endurance, go lighter.

The question of nutrition is a loaded one, and you'll get as many differing opinions as you would if you asked which is better between Marlin and Winchester, or .44 mag vs .45 Colt, or .444 vs 45-70, or.....well, you get the idea . Proper diet is important before and after the workout. You need to have proper nutrients going into the workout to be able to have the energy to sustain yourself during the workout. You also need the proper nutrients after the workout to give your muscles the fuel to rebuild. Eat small and often, 5-6 small meals and snacks a day. After your workout you need to put protein and carbs back into your body so your muscles have fuel to rebuild stronger. The guy that ran the gym I used to workout at always told us to come in on Thanksgiving and work out before Thanksgiving dinner, then go home and eat, as it was an excellent after workout meal as long as you took it easy on the sweets. Lean protein, veggies, and carbs. Your strength isn't just built during your workout. Recovery and giving your muscles the right nutrients is just as important as the lifting. Granted, nutrition opinions have evolved a bit since I was working out hard, but the general rule of thumb used to be to consume at least your target weight in grams of protein. For example; If you are a bodybuilder and want to get to a target weight of 275 lbs, you need to consume at least 275 grams of lean protein daily. This is almost always done by a combination of foods and supplements. It's hard to eat enough chicken to get 275 grams of protein. On the flip side, if you are a chunky 250, and wand to get down to 175 lbs, you need to consume at least 175 grams of protein.

The ratio of protein to carbs really depends on what you are trying to accomplish as well, and unless you are a hardcore bodybuilder, or an extreme endurance athlete, the ratio isn't necessarily as important as getting your carbs from the right sources. Avoid white flour products like white bread and take it easy on the potatoes. Definitely cut out or minimize your intake of sweets. Basically avoid as many processed foods as you can. Get your carbs from whole grains, veggies and fruits. Getting enough of the right vitamins in the correct ratios is also very helpful. Take a multivitamin at the minimum. You might also find it helpful to supplement with additional vitamins and/or amino acids, especially L-Glutamine and L-Arginine.

Hope this helps. Like I said, some of my info might be a little out of date. I used to hit the gym 2-3 hours a day, watch what I ate, etc., etc. I haven't done that in about 6-7 years, and things have progressed a lot since then.

[Grizz]

Typically the lighter weight/more reps builds less bulky muscle and increases your endurance above what heavier weight/less reps will. If you are wanting to build maximum strength and muscle mass, go heavier. If you are wanting less bulk and more endurance, go lighter.

yeah, sad to say I am very very light weight so far. I do cardio on the elliptical between dumbell sets.

This is where I am at. My frame and joints will not allow a lot of normal movement. I can't do jumping jacks. I am working on upper-body stuff because it's easy and I can. I plan to work on the core when I get to the stage where I can. I am gaining strength and losing weight, my base goal. Want to shed thirty something pounds over the next year, don't want to replace with muscle.

Hard to believe I used to do a hundred push-ups and a hundred sit-ups every morning before school. My spine won't cooperate for real ones any more. Now I do around 60 push-ups off the counter, half early and half late on the days I don't exercise.

Sounds jumbled up, but it seems to be working out well enough for me.

I eat a cup of oats early. I figure if it's good enough for Secretariat it's good enough for me. Although he ate 5 gallons come to think of it!

thanks all for the input, er, output, uh'

Grizz

[madman4570]

NO, two ratios between reps & weight are NOT the same... Weight increases will eventually build strength while added reps builds endurance... It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Add strength, or increase stamina.

Do you fuel your car before or after a trip??? But, as with everything involving the human body, it best handles things in moderation. Eat lightly before your workout... then refuel! (Again, in moderation).

You're best advised to see a nutritionist and get specific advice in accordance with your body type, energy output and metabolism.

Remember though added reps will also build strength.
Take a new guy that can bench 150lbs once. he can do 10 reps of 100lbs.
After 12 weeks of training with three sets of benching 3 times a week with that 100lbs he can do 20reps and he can do 200lbs once.

Though his twin started the same in the beginning going heavier with higher weight much less reps after 12 weeks can do 215lbs once.
You will find that when he goes lighter he might only get 17 reps of 100lbs and after the first set going for 20 reps the second set the first guy will do more reps. So in reality strength can be viewed subjectively.
If you are over 45 years old for most newbies the higher rep deal usually works best from what I have seen? The higher weight deal usually ends up with the guy trying to go heavier than he should and end in elbow tendentious issues or rotor cuff or neck issues. Quits sells weights and actually is worse than when he started after few months.

Example:
Go get a cheap set of push up bars. Start out with feet on foot stool doing 10 (feet on floor normally say you do 15)
After 2 months you can do 40 feet on foot stool and 60 normal ones.
The average sized 170lb man that started doing only 15 normal ones can now do several with his 100lb wife sitting on his upper back.

Though the weight was the same, his strength gain going that route was also "much"

Right now for me it is perfect. My 15 rep poundage requires zero warm up. And has been so a long time now with no ill effects.
An example: Total time on bench is about 10 mins( twice a week) this does not count the several 6 min between rest times of that muscle group.
That time I go to Squat Cage and do similar.(about 10 mins) so actual 20 mins twice a week on those muscle groups.
Similar on the other three groups instead about 30 mins twice a week.
So, total time actual work----less than 2 hrs.
Also doing this from one to the next does give some cardio also.

[jkbrea]

NO, two ratios between reps & weight are NOT the same... Weight increases will eventually build strength while added reps builds endurance... It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Add strength, or increase stamina.

Do you fuel your car before or after a trip??? But, as with everything involving the human body, it best handles things in moderation. Eat lightly before your workout... then refuel! (Again, in moderation).

You're best advised to see a nutritionist and get specific advice in accordance with your body type, energy output and metabolism.

Remember though added reps will also build strength.
Take a new guy that can bench 150lbs once. he can do 10 reps of 100lbs.
After 12 weeks of training with three sets of benching 3 times a week with that 100lbs he can do 20reps and he can do 200lbs once.

Though his twin started the same in the beginning going heavier with higher weight much less reps after 12 weeks can do 215lbs once.
You will find that when he goes lighter he might only get 17 reps of 100lbs and after the first set going for 20 reps the second set the first guy will do more reps. So in reality strength can be viewed subjectively.
If you are over 45 years old for most newbies the higher rep deal usually works best from what I have seen? The higher weight deal usually ends up with the guy trying to go heavier than he should and end in elbow tendentious issues or rotor cuff or neck issues. Quits sells weights and actually is worse than when he started after few months.

Example:
Go get a cheap set of push up bars. Start out with feet on foot stool doing 10 (feet on floor normally say you do 15)
After 2 months you can do 40 feet on foot stool and 60 normal ones.
The average sized 170lb man that started doing only 15 normal ones can now do several with his 100lb wife sitting on his upper back.

Though the weight was the same, his strength gain going that route was also "much"

Right now for me it is perfect. My 15 rep poundage requires zero warm up. And has been so a long time now with no ill effects.
An example: Total time on bench is about 10 mins( twice a week) this does not count the several 6 min between rest times of that muscle group.
That time I go to Squat Cage and do similar.(about 10 mins) so actual 20 mins twice a week on those muscle groups.
Similar on the other three groups instead about 30 mins twice a week.
So, total time actual work----less than 2 hrs.
Also doing this from one to the next does give some cardio also.

New question........Where do I get the 100 lb. wife???? (Glad mine doesn't read this)

[Streetstar]

Where is Doug? That dude is one fine specimen.

Thanks MAdman !

I have been fairly busy the last couple months and dont check into my "recreational forums" as much as i used to -------

as a quick aside ---- the past couple of years i have been working part time with a few folks who i work with in the insurance adjusting profession to try to help them maintain a bit of fitness , and even feel pretty good - while working 14 hour days away from home .
I am a former competitive track cyclist turned insurance adjuster (and leverguns enthisiast) -- who is now so old and full of responsibilities that i can't train on my bike or in the weight room 30 hours a week anymore --- and now i am in a profession full of overworked and stressed out people (catastrophe insurance adjusting) --- it seems everytime i turn around, my friends are getting fatter ------ but these are not the stereotypical lazy couch potatoes either -- just some guys who work 12 hours a day and when its time to get showered up - a couple of beers sound better than a bunch of barbells and treadmills (that was me for a few years too)
I literally thought , - if i can help a few guys' or gals extend their careers just a little bit, or stay a little healthier --- thats all i need
I am definitely still a work in progress myself --- but as a guy who has been training for almost 30 years , (since i was a 14 year old trying to get ready for high school sports) I thought if i could share my experiences with my colleagues, perhaps they could avoid some of my early pitfalls

---- plus --- getting older is a science experiment in and of itself --- regardless of all the media stuff that says "Age is just a number" -- and all that stuff --- (Nike marketing campaigns , etc. ) ---- Age is not just a number --- i require much more rest and time between hard workouts than i did when i was a kid ( kid being up to age 32 or so)

I think this forums demographic is roughly the same as i work with in the insurance industry ---- there are some young bucks to be sure, but most fall within the 40-70 year old age bracket - and sometimes a bit older


But Grizz --- to answer your first question --- I'd say if you can double the weight you are using now and handle it , then you probably arent using enough weight in the first place ---- LArry (Madman ) explained it pretty well concerning the benchpress --- but it applies to any lift --- A person may be able to work up to bench pressing 200 pounds 10 times fairly easilly over the course of a few months --- but lifting 400 pounds 5 times ? Its the same cumulative amount of weight --- but its in a completely different ballpark when it comes to the amount of energy expended , and for most, it takes years of training , and even with years of training - a lot of people never ever reach numbers like that-----

--- But on the other hand , if your currently just getting re-aquainted with things like this and you are using perhaps 85 lbs or a bit more on the bench for 10 reps, --- gritting the teeth and digging deep a bit to push up 155 times 5 would yield better results as long as it was approached gradually and we took care to make sure our tendons and ligaments were up to the task -----
-- As we get older , our ligements and tendons lose elasticity seemingly faster then our muscles lose strength -- its not hard to get into a situation in the weight room where we are writing checks with our muscles that our tendons cant cash --- So i would say in the beginning its important to spend as much time as it takes to condition our joints for a bit (as much as a couple of months) with lighter stuff to ensure they are ready for bigger workloads, because the joints really are the weak link in the chain --- but as long as we keep those healthy and conditioned, there's no reason you can't handle as much weight as you did when you were 25 (maybe not if you were an Olympic weightlifter at 25, -- but if you were a pretty normal, active guy - then yes -- as long as injury or prior injuries are not limiting factors)

-- If you guys want some "old school" lifting advice geared strictly towards human performance, --- a decade ago, a friend of mine (who now runs a Crossfit gym in Wichita) and i were discussing lifting and he was asking my input --- i told him that if i had to get by with 3 lifts -- it would be the squat, the deadlift, and the clean' n jerk ---- nothing else --- and i could thrive and achieve ---- I still feel that way ---- years later , after he earned hundreds of thousands of dollars in the fitness industry, he gave me a compliment by referencing that casual conversation and saying it was one of the most straightforward - no bs statements about lifting ever. When you approach a barbell sitting on the ground loaded up with weight and deadlift it, or put it on your back and squat with it -- it is a very satisfying feeling.
When its time to put aside the bs and the fad workouts, 150 or 200 pounds (more or less) - is still 150-200 pounds -- its the equivalent of picking up a full grown man, or more, regardless of the lift you are performing, and thats pretty cool


If you think i'm windier than a sack of fanny burbs regarding weight training -- wait till you get my input on diet ! I'm kidding, but regarding eating before a workout --- I'd say it really depends on your goals -- so either answer is right
Your body runs equally well on both carbs and fats ---- the lifespan of a carbohydrate as a fuel source is not indefinite though, but fat is --- think of fat as diesel fuel and carbs as high octane gasoline (not race gas, but a good 91 or 92 octane pump gas) ---- The gasoline has a higher flash point and is less efficient but produces more power through heat per unit than an equivalent amount of diesel ---- but the more efficient diesel is still there chug chugg chugging along long after the gas motor has ran out of gas

The body also has a set point where it will continue to burn the diesel (fat) -- but raise the work volume and will begin to draw the carbs out --- its a slightly different level for everybody, but usually depends on % of max heart rate
And here is how guys who work hard can continue to stay husky ----- if you work hard for shorter, and more intense periods of time when your heart rate is above 70-80% of its max , you are burning off the carbohydrates you consumed in the last day or two -- and the body cannot store much of those ------ but work out at 60% of your max for a little longer duration -- and you have not triggered the internal switch telling you to burn carbs--- therefore you may burn less total calories, but you burn a much higher percentage of fat than you do when you are hitting it hard
There is a caveat though ---- if you are doing lower intensity work, duration is important --- work out at 60% heart rate for 20 minutes and it will probably do nothing for you --- but stretch it out to an hour and those burnt calories start to become more meaningful

Thats a very long answer for saying that if your trying to lose wight, -- working out on an empty stomach in the morning is probably best for you, because your body has already burned through your glycogen stores (carbs) while you were sleeping ---- you are tapping right into that vast reservoir of "diesel fuel" - fat
But if your trying to maximize your performance or gain performance , your body does feel better with the carbs laced in there at a balanced level --- if weight loss is not an issue, i'd definitely eat something an hour before working out --- When i can do it, i love oatmeal and bananas , -- as well, i eat a bunch of eggs too , 2 or 3 a day maybe 3x a week - i get fresh eggs from my mom's neighbor ---- i used to do mostly egg whites, maybe 3 or 4 to 1 yolk in an omelette, but lately, after seeing the difference in fresh eggs to store bought -- ( hard to describe the difference in yolk color , but more of a rich golden hue, vs a watery yellow) I just go 2 whole eggs ---- i hate wasting those beautiful yolks my little country chicken friends work hard for (yes, im a bit nuts)

I would encourage you to experiment with coconut oil rather than lard for frying up some eggs though --- coconut oil used to be as common as crisco, but now its regarded as a bit of a specialty oil, but its becoming easier to get and i just bought a large container at Sams Club for 14 bucks (If you dont have a Sams , they are similar to Costco )
I understand feeling better when running on protein --- personally my diet has shifted along with my age --- i eat much more protein now than i did 15 years ago
Then, i needed the carbohydrates from pasta , potatoes, and many many other sources to fuel my workouts ---- now, i eat a plate of spaghetti and the carb overload causes me to get sleepy in an hour . My body fat % is also higher than it was 15 years ago (go figure) ----
When you eat a big carb rich meal of pasta or pancakes or whatever, -- then get sleepy --- it is almost like the body is saying -- "Lets process this and save the excess for a rainy day " --- which is what it is doing --- except the rainy day fund is your fat stores

But Grizz, although i like coconut oil ---- you mentioned olive oil and butter too , so it looks like you've done your homework ---- if you had a willing physician who could test you periodically without putting you into the poor house, i'd be interested to see what the numbers were -- blood sugar and cholesterol -- after a few weeks of using lard occasionally vs what the mainstream regards as "healthier" stuff (in the 70's and 80's- even 90's , margarine was marketed as being healthier than butter---- scary) --- now, just straight butter has its place back at the top as we have found out some of the chemical proceses required to make Fat into a different fat are not healthy at all


Sorry for the book --- LOL --- i write a fitness blog related to my business so am used to writing paragraphs on end --- i dont advertise it here much or anything, because its not really related to leverguns, --- but if your interested in some more thought on the subject (but geared towards - as i mentioned -- folks who travel a bit and dont have 30 hour a week to dedicate to this mess, or just busy people in general -- pm me and i'll get you on my blog list and point you to a couple of articles i may have already written related to your question

If i were to assign an importance on the subject of diet vs exercise though, -- i would say its at least 65% diet and 35% exercise --- for most people --- a competitive bodybuilder or someone similar would say its 90% diet --- thats because for a lot of folks, training and working the muscles is fun -- exercise can be fun ----- but diet? and experimenting with carb to protein ratios ? --- Thats work and that can take a while to sort out -- plus there very rarely is a single answer thats right for everybody ---




I'll say one last thing --- regarding human performance, -- i always ask someone who wants to work with me if they have any health and wellness issues they need to work on first before trying to increase their workloads --- usually there is something
--- i try to help people get on regular sleeping schedules, reduce blood pressure , bring down resting pulse rate, and any number of things before we get down to the nitty gritty -----
we live in an impatient age for sure and people oftentimes dont want to be told they should take it slow while they are correcting other imbalances, ---- but the human body craves balance, almost like a gyroscope that needs that perfect vibrationary path --- and sometimes clearing up the imbalances takes care of everything --- but if it doesnt, it gives a more stable foundation to work fro m at the very least

For anyone who stayed awake to read all that -- thanks gents --- Fitness is my second favorite subject-- next to shooting my 45/70 and 45 Colt products

[Grizz]

Doug

Thanks so much for the info. I am not able to lift much weight, and I could NOT do a squat or straight lift, neither my back nor my knees will bear that load. So I am skirting the fringes of low-impact but useful exercise. I'm getting somewhere, but I'm not getting back to 18!!

What got me started was someone accidently discovered than my bp was in the stratosphere. The dental assistant nearly called the emt's, and I had to get on meds to control that, which worked out. The side effect was a good steady weight loss to a set point, I decided to keep the momentum, down I guess, you know, mass times . . . to keep the trend up, er, down; downward...

So my goals are weight loss, build core strength, and build stamina so I can keep my feet under me as long as possible.

I will check out coconut oil, thanks for responding about that.

I appreciate the info a lot,
Grizz

[Streetstar]

Doug

Thanks so much for the info. I am not able to lift much weight, and I could NOT do a squat or straight lift, neither my back nor my knees will bear that load. So I am skirting the fringes of low-impact but useful exercise. I'm getting somewhere, but I'm not getting back to 18!!

What got me started was someone accidently discovered than my bp was in the stratosphere. The dental assistant nearly called the emt's, and I had to get on meds to control that, which worked out. The side effect was a good steady weight loss to a set point, I decided to keep the momentum, down I guess, you know, mass times . . . to keep the trend up, er, down; downward...

So my goals are weight loss, build core strength, and build stamina so I can keep my feet under me as long as possible.

I will check out coconut oil, thanks for responding about that.

I appreciate the info a lot,
Grizz

No problem --- i monitor my bp too --- its hereditary on one side of my family to run a bit high . This may sound a little "new age" , but if i check mine and its a bit high (not stratospherically high, but perhaps 140/90 or something like that ) --- if i take 10 minutes and turn off all noise in my house , close my eyes and think about absolutely nothing but my heart beat and breathing, -- it will drop down into the magic range (120/80 or below) --- meditation and deep breathing won't right the ship if you are at 200/160 - that takes medication, but it helps when you get it down into the borderline ranges
BP issues are why i started paying attention to diet more 10 years ago --- before that my mindset was just "Bigger, faster, stronger" ---but when a doctor suggested i take a bp pill - it woke me up and i decided that i did not want my body to have to be dependent on pills to run properly anymore if i could do something to prevent it

[wolfdog]

I lift weights the old fashioned way, 12 ounces at a time.

[madman4570]

Do you guys see why I mention Streetstar (Doug) as "the man" to listen too.
He is absolutely unreal in the knowledge he has and shares. Take his advice.
Mine well its just from a big redneck actually not knowing beans on fitness, however I am fortunate that Doug has graced me by sharing his wonderful blog as I am a student of his wisdom. You will be blown away at the depth he goes into "on many facets of everything involving getting healthy. I mean , the dude is real serious on this.
I dare say he puts more effort on his fantastic blog and other advice activities helping people than I do actual working out including doing all my other stuff around here.
Good on you Doug!