Colt Single Action In 44 Magnum

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:44 pm

Man! I'm on a roll tonight...2 posts!

I took these pics last week but it's been a little crazy around here and have not had time to post.

People in the know, know that Colt single actions (or New Frontiers) have never been catalogued in 44 Magnum. Back in the fifties, a few were made in single action mode but who knows where they are today. During the second run of New Frontiers from 79 to 82 or so, a handful of these were made in 44 magnum but then stuffed in the back of the Colt archives vault.

It seems that a few of these escaped the vault and found their way to an auction house somewhere out in California a few years back. But one, just one stayed hidden...way back in the vault, under some old newspapers with a few old empty Skoal cans thrown on top.

A man "in the know" with the proper credentials was waltzing around the Colt archives vault and found that Colt.......then......it was put on a private jet, kept on a close watch by machine gun equipped Secret Service guards, where upon landing, it was transferred to a waiting armored car, with Dillon Mini-Gun equipped Humvees as escorts........straight to Targetmaster, Chadds Ford, Pa.

OK, the BS is over. I did get a call from my bud at Targetmaster last week demanding I get over there ASAP. Upon entering, the Colt was thrust in my hands and I started to cry, knowing I will never own one. So I says to Tommy, "Look, we have been buds for a long time so,....so.....can I have it?"

Yea, I guess you can figure out the answer on that one.

Here are some pics of a gun and from what I am told, only 20 or so were ever made.----6

How's this for a serial number?

No, I don't get these pictures on the internet like some have told me.

---6

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:10 pm

That is neat.
Reminds me of the EuroArms 1873 Winchester Italian copies that were imported in the late 1970's chambered for 44 magnum.
Now I read that Uberti is making them again in a blued steel 44 magnum. No color case offering in the 44 magnums.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:31 pm

Now how cool is that!

Did you get to shoot it?

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:44 pm

You look mighty proud holding that Colt.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:08 pm

Colt's also made a trial run of SAAs in .41 Mag., with fluted cylinders, but shelved that project also..

arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:16 pm

Yeah Buddy,
Byron

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:44 pm

Wow man........just wow!

I guess now that makes YOU rare Six. How many guys have held a Colt NF .44 magnum?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:51 pm

You should buy it.....

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:02 pm

oh yes that is amazing !! couple of years ago, the robert peterson estate had a matched pair of those New Frontiers in nickel- i bid up to 6000.00, but of course they went way beyond that

Buck, i never even heard about the 41 mags- reminds of the few 41 mag colt pythons that got made

why is it my little heart craves the unobtainable ? !

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:28 am

Well Six, know where there is another, have seen it. Interesting that you got to handle one. Now what are they going to do with it?

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:05 am

Way cool.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:29 am

Well, I ain't gonna shoot it because my bud won't let me. The same goes for buying it but the reason for that is not because he won't let me, it's well, you know, lots of loot. I do believe it could be had for 10 g's as we did discuss the price. I personally think it's worth between 5-8 g 's. It is a modern gun and will not be worth the big stuff until another 50 years......if the country is still here by then.

OS, let's go get it. You and me could be " partners in crime"

. If you can, check out the number and see how close it is.----6

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:11 am

WOW

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:17 am

Always the cool stuff.

Your buddy must get tired of you running around his shop putting finger prints all over his nice old Colts and Winchesters.

junkbug · Post by **junkbug** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:47 am

No latex gloves like the guys from the NRA museum when they are on TV?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:58 am

Same poor fitting job I saw on one like it at a pawn shop in Orange, CA... That bolt screw doesn't fill the rebate quite enough to be considered excellent work. I note that one has come "scratchin'" on the nickel finish for the cylinder... probably from lettin' folks without latex gloves fondle it!

Oh yeah... the "pawn" shop is aka, "Little John's Auctions"... sorta semi-infamous out there on the left coast.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:06 am

.

Wow - A Super ColtHawk ! ! .

I've NEVER seen an SAA with an unfluted cylinder before !

Congrats !

.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:08 am

hmmmm, a blackhawk with a pony . . .

it looks so good, and it needs some shooting to warm it up. no drag mark so it maybe never was cycled, or it has perfect timing and no one ever mis-loaded it. a museum piece.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:09 am

LOL Pete you beat me to it!

my redhawk load would shoot it loose

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:23 am

Six, when does your flight land

it is not far from the Burbank Airport.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:42 am

Griff,
Your right....the fit and finish is nothing to brag about. It's like they slapped them together. The only reason the cylinder does not show any drag marks is because it's timed real well. The gun has been bounced around a bit, showing lots of little scratches.

Ben, funny thing, my bud is not into the Winchester and Colt thing, unless your talking Garands and 1911's. He has every 1911 ever made in triplicates and quads except the Singer and North American 1911. Probably every Luger, Walter, and P-38 is hanging around there too. He let's me have the Winchesters Leverguns and single action Colts......if I can afford them, then sells the rest.------6

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:00 pm

"Oh yeah... the 'pawn' shop is aka, 'Little John's Auctions'... sorta semi-infamous out there on the left coast."
--Griff

Ah! Little John's Auction in LA-- have not been there in a good 25+ years. When in LA, it was one of the usual stops, along with the Orange Armory, and a black powder shop over by Knott's Berry Farm. The last time I was in Little John's, they were unpacking a collection of 25-30 Picklehaubes: officer, NCO, and enlisted. Was looking at the Winchesters in the racks and talking to the salesman, who asked me: "Ever see one of these?" He then showed me a "One of One Thousand" M1876 so marked and documented. Had some very interesting stuff.

airedaleman · Post by **airedaleman** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:10 pm

By the way, white COTTON gloves to handle antiquities and such like; latex is for crime scenes...

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:57 pm

airedaleman wrote:By the way, white COTTON gloves to handle antiquities and such like; latex is for crime scenes...

Handling antiquities with bare hands IS a crime!

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:25 pm

Back in the '80's I was at Dick Casull's with some of the Shootists and Dick let me play with his Colt SAA .44 Magnum that he built. It was not a flat top .. it was on a 1936 frame. A 6-shot standard size cylinder. Dick said that there was a couple years when the SAA frame had a little more 'meat' in the top strap ... I don't know .. anyway he built the cylinder and then heat-treated the frame and cylinder himself.

His standard load was a 240 gr. cast bullet at 1500 fps. I fired a number of these through it .. some through a chronograph. He insisted .. just so I could see the numbers go over 1500!

He said then that Colt could do it if they wanted to put the work into it. That was one reason he did .. to show that it could be done and that it was safe when done correctly.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:48 pm

Would the current/new COLT SAA frames handle 44 magnum?
What about the cylinders, if they were unfluted?

9 grains of Unique and 200 grain bullet 44 Special in mine is about all I care to handle.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:52 pm

Griff wrote:Same poor fitting job I saw on one like it at a pawn shop in Orange, CA... That bolt screw doesn't fill the rebate quite enough to be considered excellent work. I note that one has come "scratchin'" on the nickel finish for the cylinder... probably from lettin' folks without latex gloves fondle it!

Oh yeah... the "pawn" shop is aka, "Little John's Auctions"... sorta semi-infamous out there on the left coast.

yes little johns had the pair of 44 mags that i bid on.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:40 am

Centennial wrote:Would the current/new COLT SAA frames handle 44 magnum?
What about the cylinders, if they were unfluted?

9 grains of Unique and 200 grain bullet 44 Special in mine is about all I care to handle.

The area between the cylinders where the flutes are is not the weak area. The bolt notches are cut at the thinnest part of cylinder. If you could see how little actual metal there is .. even in the 44 Special .. you might think again about handloads more than factory. The bolt notches on the .45 Colt are extremely thin.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:17 am

I agree. I settled on 7 1/2 to 8 grains Unique long ago.
Lymans 45th edition shows a maximum load of 9.7 grains Unique for a 205 grain cast.
I have found excellent accuracy and velocity consistency with 13 1/2 grains of IMR SR 4759, but that powder has just been discontinued by Hodgdon. Works great interchangably from 4 3/4" handgun to a 19" carbine.
On that unfluted magnum cylinder; Is it larger diameter then stock?

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:23 pm

Sixgun wrote:Well, I ain't gonna shoot it because my bud won't let me. The same goes for buying it but the reason for that is not because he won't let me, it's well, you know, lots of loot. I do believe it could be had for 10 g's as we did discuss the price. I personally think it's worth between 5-8 g 's. It is a modern gun and will not be worth the big stuff until another 50 years......if the country is still here by then.

OS, let's go get it. You and me could be " partners in crime" . If you can, check out the number and see how close it is.----6

It looks physically larger than an SAA. Did you get a chase to measure the cylinder OD by chance?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:01 pm

Steve,
No, I did not but....I'm going to next time I run down there. That is interesting.----

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:18 pm

Six, tell your buddy I'll give a hundred bucks for it right now.

Figure that and a couple of WIC checks should cover it.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:59 pm

Old Time Hunter wrote:Six, tell your buddy I'll give a hundred bucks for it right
Figure that and a couple of WIC checks should cover it.

You got it Old Time! Knowing Tommy, he probably wants it as a Ben Franklin. Those WIC checks....ya think he could trade them for weed, or a few lines of coke? You know, the kids can eat some other day.

----6

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:49 pm

Drool...

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:06 am

I like it. I see they left the top strap thick, which is a good thing.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:45 am

Comparing the photo to my Colt SAA the cylinder and frame area look the same.
So my SWAG says the cylinder is stock diameter.

I think other parts would fail, like the action, hand, bolt, without some beefing up.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:27 am

Centennial wrote:Comparing the photo to my Colt SAA the cylinder and frame area look the same.
So my SWAG says the cylinder is stock diameter.

I think other parts would fail, like the action, hand, bolt, without some beefing up.

You would think so. Ive got a few of those early Ruger FT and except for a very slightly large window, they are about the same..........and they hold up real good. Got to tone down the loads a bit for comfortable shooting.-----------6

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:20 am

Sixgun wrote:
Old Time Hunter wrote:Six, tell your buddy I'll give a hundred bucks for it right
Figure that and a couple of WIC checks should cover it.
You got it Old Time! Knowing Tommy, he probably wants it as a Ben Franklin. Those WIC checks....ya think he could trade them for weed, or a few lines of coke? You know, the kids can eat some other day. ----6

Yeah, checked it out, the liquor store right down the road has a sign: WIC Checks Cashed Here

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:02 am

That handgun makes me nervous for several reasons. I would want a factory letter and rock ribbed, iron bound provenance before I laid out money for it. There are lots of "rare" firearms floating around out there that are not the real deal. The one is question look pretty cobbled up to me.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:23 am

Probably in a 2nd or 3rd generation Colt SAA could handle 41 magnum pressures. The cartidge would leave more steel where the notches are in the cylinder. Like 44 magnum , 41 magnum brass is strong and straight . Someone most of done that already.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:46 am

Of course they will probably never be shot but I'm curious as to the barrel and cylinder throat dimensions. I haven't measured that many but every 44 spec Colt I did measure had a ~.427 barrel with riduculously sloppy throats. One I really wanted had a .426 barrel and the thraots went from .430 to .434 (pin gauges) with no two the same. Seems that Colt didn't think two more thou on the barrel was worth it when they already had 44-40 barrels laying around. The throats were just flat out laziness. I wouldn't trust Colt 3rd gen to get anything right on a 44 unless it has a 40 at the end of it.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:31 am

Leverluver wrote:Of course they will probably never be shot but I'm curious as to the barrel and cylinder throat dimensions. I haven't measured that many but every 44 spec Colt I did measure had a ~.427 barrel with riduculously sloppy throats. One I really wanted had a .426 barrel and the thraots went from .430 to .434 (pin gauges) with no two the same. Seems that Colt didn't think two more thou on the barrel was worth it when they already had 44-40 barrels laying around. The throats were just flat out laziness. I wouldn't trust Colt 3rd gen to get anything right on a 44 unless it has a 40 at the end of it.

That has also been my experience. Colt really has slopped up the tolerances on their 3 rd gen 44's of any 44. You say the same for anything 45 too. About 10 years ago I bought this 3rd. Gen. 44-40 SAA. Took it home and fired 5 shots at 25 yards with a light load of Bullseye and a .430 bullet......usually an excellent load......and got a 10" group. I did not even try to figure that one out......took it back and took a $200 hit. The only way to get any kind of somewhat decent accuracy is to size for the cylinder throat and ignore the barrel.

On the four 38-40's I have (first and third) they are perfect. .401 cylinder and .400 barrel.

BTW, the 44 mag really did come out of the vault, is 100% factory, is standard sized New Frontier, and has a standard cylinder, but unfluted.----6

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:10 am

Therefore my curiosity on how close they paid attention on the 44 Mag. Next trip, take some pin gauges

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:14 pm

What are the odds on Six having a complete set of pin gages?

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:30 pm

I bought mine for $56 (a few years back) for .250 through .500 every thousandth. They're still available for under $100. If you want to know what you have, you have to have the right tools.
I wouldn't think of buying a used revolver without them. If Six does go back, he can contact me and I will loan him all the ones he needs which will be 429 through 435.

http://www.wttool.com/index/page/produc ... n+Gage+Set

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:49 pm

I use Starret expanding pins.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:25 pm

Mescalero wrote:What are the odds on Six having a complete set of pin gages?

Not much. Being a redneck, I have to make my own.

I'm going down in a few minutes with my Mitutoyo.

Redneck pin guages

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:45 pm

What do you make them from?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:44 pm

Mescalero wrote:What do you make them from?

Mescaline,

These are my sizing dies for bullet casting. I have many more not shown in the pic. Is what I do is size a bullet, without the lube and drop it through the cylinder. If it takes a tiny little push, that's the diameter.

But.....the sizing dies are not always what is stamped on them. That's when I break out the Mitutoyo, a $400 caliper. I reserve that tool to precise measurements.

Yes, I should buy a set of pin gauges, but with me doing less and less revolver shooting as I age, I'm beginning to wonder if I should.

BTW, I just came back from Targetmaster, with Mitutoyo in hand........and guess what I accomplished?.........nothing! As soon as I walked in the door, here comes Gary, and then Tommy, and then Rob, then Mike. We all stood around and swapped lies for three hours.-------6

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:53 pm

No, you should not.
If you have an out of round hole all a pin gage will tell you is the size of the out of round at the minimalist point.
You need at least two pont measurement.