Real shooting, that is without rests or bipods

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:49 pm

I have been working with a 16 year old young man and his shooting. He has a 10/22 with new barrel, good synthetic stock, 3-9X glass. He came out to shoot and when we started shooting from sitting position, he told me he had never shot without a rest or bipod. I was shocked. It was his first time to really shoot the way I guess all of us had learned to shoot.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:02 pm

carbluesnake wrote:I have been working with a 16 year old young man and his shooting. He has a 10/22 with new barrel, good synthetic stock, 3-9X glass. He came out to shoot and when we started shooting from sitting position, he told me he had never shot without a rest or bipod. I was shocked. It was his first time to really shoot the way I guess all of us had learned to shoot.

It always surprises me to find someone like that but I have come across grown men who have never fired prone, sitting, kneeling and offhand like we grew up with, shooting in junior clubs, JROTC, Boy Scouts, etc, along with our military training. I know folks that wont go to "X" range because they don't have benches there. To me, shooting has always been a contest of MARKSMANSHIP, not sitting on your butt at a bench. Before I get flamed here, in my advancing age I have taken up .22 Bench Rest shooting, but it is a contest of technology and equipment. with the excepting of doping the wind.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:08 pm

Each to his/her own. For me the fun is working up loads for my rifles and I am not a good enough shot without a rest to tell if one load shoots into 1/2" rather than 3/4" at 100 yd.
If I had to test loads off hand the first load I tried would shoot as well as any other.

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:18 pm

Chuck, you're right; however, after the load development, start the real shooting. When I found the right load for my .270, I started shooting from sitting at 200 yds. My first groups were 9". Not very encouraging. But within 2 months, at the rate of 30 rds a week, I was shooting 4" groups and sometimes better at 200 yds. A beer can was in lots of trouble at 200 if I could get to sitting.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:28 pm

Last year a 20 something, at our general purpose pistol range, was blasting with his glock. He commented on my revolver shooting since I was keeping my shots in the black and he seemed happy to just hit the target board. I offered to let him try. He had never shot a revolver before and had no idea what a "six o'clock hold" was.

I gave him a few pointers and had him dry fire a little. His first shot hit dead center and his comment was, "did you see where it went? I don't think I hit the target". Got him thinking a bit....

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:29 pm

carbluesnake ,I would be very pleased with results like that. Good shooting. I could shoot a rifle well enough to be high rifleman in my company in the army for two years running but that was almost 50 years ago.
I don`t hunt big game any more. My hunting partner passed this last November after fighting cancer for almost ten years.
I do enjoy varmint hunting though and Cowboy action shooting. For varmints I can almost always find a rested position and for CAS none is needed.

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:36 pm

Chuck, I like your style. When I did that shooting I was in my twenties. Today, it would take me a little to get back to that. When I was shooting with my younger friend with the 10/22 last week, I was shooting 5 shot groups at 50 yds. with my CZ .22 an inch and under. One group was about the size of a nickel! I thought that was very good for a 65 year old man. I almost bragged.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:39 pm

I don't know, I never thought about one position or another not being "real" shooting. I was taught to shoot from a number of different positions depending on the rifle, the terrain, and the conditions. I don't care for shooting from a bench as much and I shoot better prone than from a bench, probably since I have shot more prone than bench. Lots of ranges I have shot at did not have benches or they were too poorly designed to be useful.

I have always shot offhand when I needed to and prone if I could, with a rest of some type whenever possible; standing, sitting or kneeling as the situation dictates.

I don't look down on any shooting position as long as it is done correctly. There is a place for all of them. I do think that learning good shooting stances/positions is something that a lot of shooters lack.

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:45 pm

7.62, that's a ninja philosophy. Do whatever it takes to win. If the object is to hit, do what you can do to hit. I just hope we can remain a country of riflemen, and not bipod shooters.

J35 · Post by **J35** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:51 pm

carbluesnake wrote:I have been working with a 16 year old young man and his shooting. He has a 10/22 with new barrel, good synthetic stock, 3-9X glass. He came out to shoot and when we started shooting from sitting position, he told me he had never shot without a rest or bipod. I was shocked. It was his first time to really shoot the way I guess all of us had learned to shoot.

Here is good awful hand practice target for you boys

Nothing beats the real thing, but this is a close second for me, rifles or handguns
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/pdf/bunny.pdf

keep up the work

-----J

Post script--- They have a good tutorial for slugging bores at beartooth bullets

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:58 pm

carbluesnake wrote:I just hope we can return to a country of riflemen, and not bipod shooters.

There, I fixed it for you.

Today there are a lot of people getting into shooting all of a sudden with no previous experience, and often no guns in their family background or raising. This is very good, but I find that there are a ton of shooters that are comfortable with only one type of weapon or only one type of shooting. What you are doing is very important to the continuation of shooting skills in America; finding the guy who lack training and informally teaching him a few things.

Unfortunately, some feel it is better to ridicule than train, and drive these new shooters away.

It is not just young people - we had a guy in a training course that was in his upper 50s with a new Glock and a total of 5 rounds fired in his life. It is better to be friendly and respectful and teach them some things that they can pass on.

I find that the majority of customer service for me today is educating shooters. Two years ago, the majority was working with experienced shooters. You would not believe how many people are shooting, carrying, and owning firearms for the first time in the last year.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:04 am

As usual, agreeing with 7.62.......

I started shooting young but not like some of you guys. 'Really' started shooting around 12-14 and more so once I hit 18 and could by my own ammo. Read about shooting since I could read (age 4) more or less.

I'll shoot off the bench or anywhere else if I have to, and can shoot all the formal positions. With tactical training I've also shot on my side, rolled over, upside down, etc and done fine.

Friend of mine grew up without much family and outside the Boy Scouts, didn't shoot. When we met he had just bought himself an AK-47 and a 10/22 and then picked up a Mosin-Nagant (he likes Russian stuff). After hanging around me a bit, he had an 870, a 700, a Glock and an AR-15 in short order.

Shooting with me and my various professionally trained colleagues, he was somewhat dispirited since we could obviously shoot far better in all types of shooting than he did. But within a couple range sessions he was shooting from the holster, shooting while moving, shooting over/around/under cover, etc, learning to reload and top off rifles and shoot anywhere from 0-300m with rifles. The first time he ever hit a target past 100m was with my scoped Mauser and hitting steel at 250 just awed him.

Within 2 years he's gone from a barely shot anything guy to someone with a respectable collection, the knowledge and skills to handle most things. It just took time, dedication and repetition. As I told him, it'll take a while to get good, and when you shoot with a group of guys who on average have 15-20 years experience and almost to a man are prior service guys or have been to professional shooting schools... don't get dismayed. Take it as a challenge to know you can be better.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:50 am

I shoot off hand most the time.....that way I dont get lazy!
Sure...I will use a rest in the field but I don't have to train for that do I

N.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:03 am

jnyork wrote:
carbluesnake wrote:
He came out to shoot and when we started shooting from sitting position, he told me he had never shot without a rest or bipod. I was shocked. It was his first time to really shoot the way I guess all of us had learned to shoot.

It always surprises me to find someone like that but I have come across grown men who have never fired prone, sitting, kneeling and offhand like we grew up with

They never had to shoot when their lives depended upon it (Thank God ! ) - unlike some of us who've been in the service during war time, or in law enforcement.

.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:07 pm

I was taught to, in the field, to use a rest if possible. A sling if no rest, and a good stable position if nothing else was available. That said, I've taken shots with everything from a good solid rest to standing on my feet, on uneven ground, while leaning sideways, uphill. How you are positioned to take the shot can make it easier, but one should learn that the world isn't a flat, windless, range of known distances.

Two skills that I've noticed lacking in some youngsters is the ability to judge distance and wind. Throw in an uphill or downhill situation and they get all confused (do I aim high for uphill and low for uphill, etc.) And, not knowing the bullet drop at distance is another thing I've found lacking.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:07 pm

Both rested shooting (for load development, equipment checking, and initial sighting-in), and 'field position' shooting (for hunting, target practice, skill-development) are needed.

However, for a kid (or adult) just starting out, I NEVER, EVER have them shoot 'offhand', with either handgun or rifle. Perhaps super-motivated pupils would not be discouraged, but most of them are, when they miss so many times; they right then and there 'learn' that they are not a good shot, and they assume they never will be, that it must be some genetic thing those of us who shoot well were born with.

Instead, I start all of them out with a red-dot-sighted, suppressed, 22 LR levergun, off a precision rifle-rest, and they shoot at a 6-inch gong, at 50 yards. That seems so 'way out there' that they don't think anyone but an expert could hit it. . . so after they hit it 8 or 9 out of their first 10 shots, they realize that they CAN shoot well. Now from there all we have to do is gradually progress to the gun they want to learn to shoot, and the positions they will need to shoot in.

Doing it that way starts them out without noise, recoil, flinching, or frustration. They start having FUN right away, and that fun will carry them through all the future bad sessions where misses outnumber hits, and recoil makes their shoulder ache, and the noise gives them a headache...

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:22 pm

MrMurphy wrote:As usual, agreeing with 7.62.......

+1

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:38 pm

carbluesnake wrote:I have been working with a 16 year old young man and his shooting. He has a 10/22 with new barrel, good synthetic stock, 3-9X glass. He came out to shoot and when we started shooting from sitting position, he told me he had never shot without a rest or bipod. I was shocked. It was his first time to really shoot the way I guess all of us had learned to shoot.

So... let me get this straight...

You're suprised that some kid with what is probably his first gun hasn't been to a military boot camp or doesn't have 30 years experience shooting from between trees and over half-filled muddy ditch banks... ?

Yeah... shocking...

What are kids doing with their time these days?

Just kidding... just kidding....

You make a good point.

It sure is easy to sit down at a nice sturdy bench and start pulling the trigger and forget that once you get out in the woods you probably won't have that nice bench with you. But then, there are multiple shooting disciplines were the practice doesn't quite match the application.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:41 pm

A good, supported firing position IS real shooting.

Anyone that says different has watched Quigley too many times

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:50 pm

BlaineG , I agree +1

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:36 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Both rested shooting (for load development, equipment checking, and initial sighting-in), and 'field position' shooting (for hunting, target practice, skill-development) are needed.

However, for a kid (or adult) just starting out, I NEVER, EVER have them shoot 'offhand', with either handgun or rifle. Perhaps super-motivated pupils would not be discouraged, but most of them are, when they miss so many times; they right then and there 'learn' that they are not a good shot, and they assume they never will be, that it must be some genetic thing those of us who shoot well were born with.

Instead, I start all of them out with a red-dot-sighted, suppressed, 22 LR levergun, off a precision rifle-rest, and they shoot at a 6-inch gong, at 50 yards. That seems so 'way out there' that they don't think anyone but an expert could hit it. . . so after they hit it 8 or 9 out of their first 10 shots, they realize that they CAN shoot well. Now from there all we have to do is gradually progress to the gun they want to learn to shoot, and the positions they will need to shoot in.

Doing it that way starts them out without noise, recoil, flinching, or frustration. They start having FUN right away, and that fun will carry them through all the future bad sessions where misses outnumber hits, and recoil makes their shoulder ache, and the noise gives them a headache...

I agree completely. Teach them the principles of sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze and follow through while off the bench or prone over a rest. When they have that pretty well down, time to start on positions. If the young person is going to be a hunter, it should be stressed to them to take a rest any time it's possible. Practice on field rests such as over a log, backpack, up against a tree trunk, etc are fun to practice in the woods even with firing, and will make them a better hunter.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:54 pm

carbluesnake wrote:I have been working with a 16 year old young man and his shooting. He has a 10/22 with new barrel, good synthetic stock, 3-9X glass. He came out to shoot and when we started shooting from sitting position, he told me he had never shot without a rest or bipod. I was shocked. It was his first time to really shoot the way I guess all of us had learned to shoot.

Main thing have fun and give the lad tons of encouragement. So he will learn from you and learn to love the sport.
Honestly, I bet the first 10 trips out with my daughter it was from a concrete shooting bench, her Caldwell front and rear filled nylon shooting rests. Concentrations on gun operation, safety, becoming one with the gun, aiming, breathing, and trigger squeeze.
All while saying how good she is doing and how good she will be.

She is a gun/shooting/hunting lover now.

Good luck!

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:40 pm

Interesting thread. It reminds me of a conversation my bud and I had. His young, 20ish, nephew asked if he could get my friend to help move. We are not the "help move" generation anymore!! It turns out there was no-one in their group who could drive a standard transmission truck they borrowed!

I think back to learning to shoot on the farm. Once I was trusted with safety to tramp around on my own I was mostly self taught. I learned to shoot offhand and tried different positions from reading everything I could find on shooting and hunting. I preferred the high kneel position for hunting to get over low brush and crops. I used the sitting position for sight in. Being a pretty good offhand shot meant every other position, improvised or not, felt rock solid. Also hitting a Baby Moon hubcap was accurate shooting.

Now I'm relearning and hoping to add some precision to my shooting. I have trouble getting into and out of the prone position but figure that will improve. Adding a scope to my 9422 and the new CZ 527 bolt 223 are my precision rifles. As well as a couple of vintage style spring air rifles from Germany with target peeps.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:48 pm

For me, "real shooting" includes/requires hitting what I am aiming at. MOST OF THE TIME I NEED A REST TO DO THAT UNLESS THE TARGET IS CLOSE.

For some reason firing for effect don`t bring home much meat.
I cant remember the last time I heard of an Army /Marine sniper shooting off hand either.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:12 pm

My dad got me shooting from a rest a lot as I was learning, and of course we always sighted our guns in from a rest or worked up handloads later on, using a rest, but the competition shooting i did was all without a rest, it was all offhand shooting. I shot NRA Hunter Pistol and Rifle Silhouette, Bullseye, and IPSC combat shooting.

It's all real shooting, but I think to be a well rounded shooter, you need to master Offhand shooting after learning the basics. Personally, I never could get into a decent sitting position, however I can do pretty good prone, and just this last season, I killed a nice doe, at about 200yds, shooting prone at just before dusk, but I believe that is the only deer I ever killed shooting prone, my whole life, because usually the conditions where I hunt are not very friendly for going prone, and probably 90% of all the game I ever took with a rifle or a pistol have been offhand, so I practice like I figure I will need to shoot. The rest were shot from an improvised rest or kneeling.

I don't carry a by-pod or shooting sticks while hunting, although I can see where they might come in handy, but for the hunting I do, I am not willing to pack the extra gear.

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:16 pm

Good thread. I shot what was called a "Field Match" at the local club this afternoon. All at 200 yds, 10 standing, 10 sitting, and two 10 rd strings from prone. I haven't done much other than prone shooting for quite a while and it showed. (Also found my rifle wasn't as well zeroed as I had thought).

I need to work on sitting and off hand.

Interestingly, the match was won by a shooter with an AK with irons.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:36 pm

BlaineG wrote:A good, supported firing position IS real shooting. Anyone that says different has watched Quigley too many times

+2. And actually the title "Real shooting..." as qualified, struck me as elitist. Kinda saying that benchrest shooters or other position dictated adherents are somehow only second class shooters. Then I read the OP. Similar to your young shooter, my son can shoot more accurately than I can when trying to shoot fast. However, I can shoot far smaller groups than he when we slow things down to a slow-fire drill. And it's perfectly understandable when I think about his early firearms training vs. mine. From 8 to about 14 he was a cowboy action shooter, a game ALL about speed, accuracy secondary. Me, I was initially trained as an ASC shooter, accuracy being foremost. So, IMO, no shooting discipline or position is no more or less "Real" than any other. You may differ, "se la vie!"

I'm reminded of our c;ub's annual shoot last year... The "Plainsman" event dictates that one uses a double shotgun, two percussion revolvers and an exposed hammer period (up to 1899) single shot riflle, all loaded w/BP or sub. The rifle portion of the 1st stage required 10 shots on 5 16" round gongs in 2 sweeps from l to r. Targets were about 30 yards. Using my 1885 in 45Colt my 1st 5 shots were all within an inch of center. My second 5 were all laid in on top of the 1st for each target. Hey! that gray smear made for an excellent aiming point... (I was the 1st shooter, so I had clean, freshly painted targets.

Two of the spotters, (having only shot cowboy matches and otherwise inexperienced shooters), were confused... they admitted hearing the "ding" of lead on steel, but could only see ONE impact per target. One of the ladies entered, (one of the spotters), turned to her husband, (who was runnin' the timer), and said, "buy me one of those rifles, yours can't do that!" She and her husband borrowed the rifle and using my ammo shot the last stage with it, both were in love! Had I been inclined, I coulda made a tidy profit. But, then I woulda been left searchin' for another'n!

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:21 pm

Interesting development in thread direction.

I believe every hunter and shooter must be a reasonable offhand shot and this qualifies as both real shooting and real hunting skills. Real shooting seems to mean the ability to use a rifle in many diverse situations and conditions possibly encountered. Kinda like good driving. I am well trained on avoiding head on collisions and moose and have been successful a few of times. I could be the World Champion Drag racer and not have those skills. I believe such skills make me a pretty good oilfield driver in some rush hour and remote winter tough conditions. The mundane and simple are often hardest to master.

It seems possible to become a real good benchrest competitor without offhand skill. However it narrows the term a little too much. Offhand shooting demands a set of mental, motor, and training skills that translate well to all shooting. I feel my own personal failing is that I never learned to really shoot a shotgun.

I am not saying supported shooters aren't real skilled shooters just that defining something as variable as a "real shooter" as supported shooting only is a bit narrow. However I won't dodge the controversy that does define all "real shooters" as skilled offhand shots to some degree.

I consider target disciplines, precision long range shooting, military sniping and such as further development of shooting but not defining a real shooter. I'm actually starting to appreciate and train toward my version of precision shooting, 223 scoped bolt to 300 meters. However I was a real shooter when I could head shot a rabbit or prairie chicken at 12 and hit moving running coyotes with a lever by early teens.

Supported shooting is always best. If there is a tree trunk beside me I'll use it before offhand, if it will not spook a target a blowdown is much better than a tree trunk, and a truck window with a commercial clip on rest might even be better. We have local big game hunters who set-up benches for long range elk hunting. Not my cup of tea. However it seems sensible for anyone trained to shoot to be able to quickly, safely, and accurately shoulder a rifle or shotgun and hit the intended target before declaring themselves a real shooter. Our families and country could depend on that skill some day.

Anyone who hunts will eventually be faced with many situations that require offhand shooting often at moving game. In my experience almost everyone of them will attempt the shot with no training or skill. We all talk about the discipline to NOT pull the trigger on marginal shots, poor angles, crappy light, unconfirmed backdrops, unconfirmed targets but it happens regularly.

For this reason I consider reasonable offhand skills the entry point for a real rifle shot not a 1" group at 200 yards which I have never shot I think. When I was a trained and younger shot I considered 200 yards as my offhand range with a 444. My longest was a DRT moose at 175 yards from a high kneel, offhand position on one knee, with a 2.5X M8 scope. My longest offhand shot was a coyote running across a fallowed field paced at well over 250 yards, 243 BLR 1.5-4 Redfield 100 grain Partiton load. I considered a group a bit smaller than my hand with the fingers spread as accurate peep sight shooting at that range, 6 or 7 inches, palm size at 100 yards or so. Firing a 444 to these standards the effect of the fire is considerable from whitetail deer to animals of large moose mass. The scopes reduced that a bit but I quit using them because I hunted on foot and the lever just carries too sweet with iron sights.

Today I'm starting over with a different set of natural abilities but hope some day to brag about my 100 yard offhand groups around here and maybe 300 yard groups from prone or bench.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:25 pm

Griff wrote:And actually the title "Real shooting..." as qualified, struck me as elitist.

Yes, and this is something I see a lot. The three-gun guy does not think anyone who is not a three-gun competitor is not a real shooter. He thinks everyone's firearms should be set up for three-gun. The CAS thinks only CAS competitors are real shooters. The guy who worships Costa thinks that unless you shoot with a hyperextended arm, you aren't a real shooter. The bench rest guy thinks that if you shoot a lever gun you aren't a real shooter, and the service rifle guy thinks scopes are cheating, real shooters fire with iron sights.

I'm not saying that all of these types are this way, just that there are a pretty good number of shooters who look down on anyone who does not shoot like they do. This is discouraging to new shooters, especially. We should avoid an elitist attitude about our skills.

I don't know what makes you a "real" shooter, but I would suggest that we strive to be well rounded shooters. We should learn to shoot in all useful positions, with different sights and optics, and for different purposes. I like doing and training fast CQB shooting just as much as I like long-range precision shooting. I like shooting leverguns and ARs and bolt guns. I like modern sniper rifles and Civil war muzzle loaders, and old Mausers and machine guns. I train for hunting differently than I train for self-defense, and train differently for other things. I would love to get involved in CAS shooting, but have always lacked the time and money. There ail be some types of shooting that I will never have enough time to be an expert at, but I can respect most types of shooting and don't look down on anyone because his interest and skill goes a different direction than mine.

It is about time the elitism left the shooting world, especially since there are a lot of very new shooters who are susceptible to being taught elitism themselves. Elitism drives people away from shooting, especially women, whether it is the elitist behind the gun counter, at the range, or on the internet.

http://762precision.wordpress.com/2012/ ... e-nazi-15/

Rifleman · Post by **Rifleman** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:20 pm

BlaineG wrote:A good, supported firing position IS real shooting. Anyone that says different has watched Quigley too many times

Indeed.

When I saw my deer this season, I first noticed vegetation was too tall so I couldn't get into the prone or sitting position, and I couldn't get to a tree for support without getting busted; so I used a standing position like R. Lee Ermey uses. The results was a 45cal muzzleloader slug through the shoulders at 120 yards.

I used the equipment and technique that granted me as much stability possible. If I had a bipod, and could have been able to utilize it, I would have.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:14 pm

I have killed many deer from the off hand position and cant remember one that I missed or wounded.
That said, When off hand shooting at a range at paper targets or gongs I am a very poor shot.
The reason I can hit game I give credit to many thousands of shotgun trap targets. I shoot a rifle the same way when shooting a deer off hand and after the shot I usually don`t remember even what the sight picture looked like when the trigger broke. It is ,for me, a totally different thing to shoot game and to shoot targets. Instinct shooting only comes after lots of trigger time. Mine came from many years of trap shooting. Now I am shooting CAS and find when I make my best runs I am actually instinct shooting.
How is it possible for a shooter to fire 20 shots from three different guns in 20 seconds ahile carefully aligning the sights with the target?

It is done all the time in CAS.

Whoever said that benchrest shooting is just a race of equipment and the shooter has little to do with the results is way off in his thinking. That would be like saying that NASCAR is just a technoligy race and the driver is just going along for the ride.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:32 pm

Chuck 100 yd wrote:BlaineG , I agree +1

+2 If hunting, you owe it to the game to make your most accurate shot. Be it standing, sitting, supported, offhand,unsupported, whatever works for u.

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:40 pm

Glad so many of you chimed in on this subject. Good social intercourse always benefits everyone involved. Many good opinions, I did not mean to sound elitist with the title. The 'real' shooting is quality practice that produces better shooters. Then we can all go out and have fun, rest or not. Blaine, you are a ninja. When it is meat on the line or your butt, take a rest, shoot from the hip, whatever it takes to win. Ninjas never lose.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:50 pm

Blaine, you are a ninja.

A wore out, raggedy ninja....That's why I have to cheat

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:24 pm

Hmmm. This has evolved into a good thread.

I confess I'm a bit biased to off hand shooting because while I started shooting off a bench at an outdoor shooting range, my eyes were really, really opened by what is possible shot off hand with iron sights by some remarkable people. Sometimes we take the path of least resistance and don't realize that we are capable of far more skill than we imagined, and therefore we don't even try, and we retire to what is comfortable and easier (like shooting from a bench). Don't get me even started on what some of these same gifted people do shooting revolvers off hand at targets 400 yards away off hand (the "banana rock" at NRA Whittington Center.)

OTOH, the goal is, and always is, to hit the target, and at some ranges a bench is a must! And at even longer ranges, a scope is a must!!

And then add to that, what if you are shooting in the field while hunting? Then totally different rules apply. Under those circumstances, you use whatever is at hand to place the most accurate shot you can, using field rests, slings, portable 'pods, whatever.

The goal is always to get on target, that goal is always the same given whatever method a shooter is using. I think it just boils down to application, and what are you trying to achieve under what circumstances??? That should be your focus.

I can remember my first shooting foray at the Friend's of Billy Dixon range in Hotchikiss, CO. I started at the 200 yard line with my antique 71/84 Mauser and worked back from there all the way to 1538 yards.

Being that my 485 grain bullet has the trajectory of a rainbow, I had to get real creative as I got to 600 to 1000 yards and tried shooting prone, sitting cross legged, sitting cross legged with cross-sticks, shooting standing from a rest, you name it. I am having to aim so high through the factory iron sights the stock is against my chest, and nowhere near my cheek for a hold. Thus trying every method I can. Good practice to be sure.

But the goal was always to get on target.

So maybe the goal should be, "What am I training for????"

I agree that being "well rounded" has its place for sure!!!

But God fear the "man with one rifle" who knows his rifle and his load at all distances and how to get on target using whatever means necessary!!!

That's what I'm talking about!!!

And yeah, you can do that in about 2 days at the Friends of Billy Dixon Range in Hotchkiss, CO. 100 to 1800 yards. Bring lots of ammo!!!

-Tutt

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:27 pm

I am an NRA certified instructor in rifle shooting. (handgun and personal protection too.)
From that perspective they teach us, that when training a new shooter the most important thing to do is to instill confidence in the new shooter. The best way to do that is start out with a big target up close. The easiest shooting position to hit that target is from the bench rest.
Once the new shooter finds that confidence and sees that he can do this it makes it much easier to advance his skills in the other positions.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:12 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:I am an NRA certified instructor in rifle shooting. (handgun and personal protection too.)
From that perspective they teach us, that when training a new shooter the most important thing to do is to instill confidence in the new shooter.

Yes, nothing is more discouraging to a new shooter than having unattainable targets.

When I teach kids, I mix targets that challenge their accuracy with targets that are easier to hit and move, fall, or blow apart violently. This keeps their attention, keeps it fun, and prevents discouragement.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:31 pm

Steve, I didn't know of your certification in this area. Cool stuff. You are a man of many talents, some of which you don't even talk about.

It makes sense to me, with a brand new shooter where subjects like sight picture and sight alignment are the "words of the day" to start on a bench.

At the same time, sometimes people do need a nudge to move them out of their comfort zone and show them there is "life after bench" shooting and that things they may not have ever dreamed possible are actually doable with simple iron sights and practice.

I am mostly self-taught and if it weren't for some of my friends showing me what is possible, I would never have even thought to TRY the things I do now. Nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say.

Sometimes we just need the nudge, or the example of someone more experienced. Thank God I found the latter when I didn't have the former.

Regards my friend,

-Tutt

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:44 pm

Steve, et al, what does the NRA say about beginning shooters using iron sights or a scope as a newby shooter? I was taught by my best friend, a former Marine, that it was better to start with iron sights and move to a scope from there. Being as I didn't have much interest in using a scope (I recently just bought my first one from a friend's collection who passed away out of respect to him) and having used exclusively iron sights, I'm just wondering what conventional wisdom is on the subject. I still prefer iron sights to this day, but I get the best ones I can find for the particular rifle or handgun (or cannon!)

-Tutt

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:46 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:Steve, et al, what does the NRA say about beginning shooters using iron sights or a scope as a newby shooter? I was taught by my best friend, a former Marine, that it was better to start with iron sights and move to a scope from there. Being as I didn't have much interest in using a scope (I recently just bought my first one from a friend's collection who passed away out of respect to him) and having used exclusively iron sights, I'm just wondering what conventional wisdom is on the subject. I still prefer iron sights to this day, but I get the best ones I can find for the particular rifle or handgun (or cannon!)

-Tutt

Always with the fundamentals. Irons to start so a new shooter learns the relationship of bullet trajectory and line of sight. you always start with a gun that will do POI to POA. Then move the rear enough so the shooter can see how the POI has changed in relationship to the POA. The hardest concept to get across is you never change the POA. That line of sight from the rear across the front to the bullseye never really changes. What you are actually doing is moving the barrel under the sight to where you are looking.

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:15 am

I started shooting when I was 8 or so with a 22. I remember that first time I shot. My dad was hitting pop cans every time, and I was hitting a 5 gallon grease can every time. That was so much fun, that I never stopped. I learned basic shooting skills with a single shot 22, and later with surplus 30-06 ammo that cost 10 cents a round.

I never had access to any fancy rests until I was in my late twenties when I shot my BLR at a friend's range. The first time I shot off a bench with shot bags for rests, I shot a 3 shot half inch group at 125 yards with that 308. The fourth shot hit the thumbtack that was holding the target up. Before that time, my idea of a rest was to wad up a coat on the hood of my rig and use it to steady the rifle.

The experience I got shooting with whatever rest was available served me well when I was hunting. I shot an elk in the head at 225 yards from a sitting position, a buck at 55 yards, offhand between the eyes, and the biggest blacktail I ever shot was a 75 yard shot behind the ear, using a tree as a side rest. Each if those shots was taken because that is the only choice I had for various reasons unique to each situation. I would not have been able to make any of those shots had I not learned basic shooting skills early on.

I always use a rest when possible, but that isn't always an option. It is nice to have practiced basic shooting skills when those situations arise. Those skills definitely filled our freezer more than once.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:59 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote: Always with the fundamentals. Irons to start so a new shooter learns the relationship of bullet trajectory and line of sight.

I mostly agree. However, I have found it useful with very small children to start the with a red dot sight. The reason is that for a 4 or 5-year-old, it can be overwhelming to deal with holding the rifle correctly, getting in a good shooting position that is often awkward with a rifle that is a little large, focus on the sights, alignment of the sights, breathing, trigger squeeze, etc.

A red dot sight removes sight alignment and focus from the mix and lets the child focus on the other things. I child that age gets discouraged easily when they are struggling, and they can learn Iron sights later. The fear is often that they won't want to use irons later, but I have found that to not be the case. They always are anxious to learn to use iron sights once they have mastered the other skills.

As my son once said excitedly when he was very young, "When you let me shoot the AR with the Meprolight sight, I just couldn't miss!"

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:21 am

A person who tells me they only shoot offhand or that one is not shooting correctly unless they shoot offhand , I generally dismiss as someone I don't care to be around . Granted everyone has their own criteria as to what they like and or enjoy .

I truely do not enjoy teaching educating or training others (in anything). I truely do enjoy shooting from the bench and working up loads . I also truely enjoy KILLING deer etc . Leave it at that !

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:30 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote: Always with the fundamentals. Irons to start so a new shooter learns the relationship of bullet trajectory and line of sight.
I mostly agree. However, I have found it useful with very small children to start the with a red dot sight. The reason is that for a 4 or 5-year-old, it can be overwhelming to deal with holding the rifle correctly, getting in a good shooting position that is often awkward with a rifle that is a little large, focus on the sights, alignment of the sights, breathing, trigger squeeze, etc.

A red dot sight removes sight alignment and focus from the mix and lets the child focus on the other things. I child that age gets discouraged easily when they are struggling, and they can learn Iron sights later. The fear is often that they won't want to use irons later, but I have found that to not be the case. They always are anxious to learn to use iron sights once they have mastered the other skills.

As my son once said excitedly when he was very young, "When you let me shoot the AR with the Meprolight sight, I just couldn't miss!"

Kids are different. Their attention span is short so you have to maintain their interest. I like to use steel swinger targets for them, too. The ding, ding ,ding makes for instant positive reinforcing feedback.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:53 pm

Kids are different. Their attention span is short so you have to maintain their interest. I like to use steel swinger targets for them, too. The ding, ding ,ding makes for instant positive reinforcing feedback.

There ya go again, talking about me!!!

-Tutt

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:17 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:...As my son once said excitedly when he was very young, "When you let me shoot the AR with the Meprolight sight, I just couldn't miss!"

When my son was 8, he went to spend the summer w/grandpa in TN on his "farm"... Grandpa had promised him he could go squirrel hunting. He'd been shooting a .38 Rossi with irons since he was 6. According to Grandpa, he popped a squirrel about 60 yards away... handed the Grandpa the rifle and said... "Grandpa, that was like cheatin', usin' a scope. Gotta rifle without one?"

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:37 pm

LOL!!!

My kind of kid Griff!!!!!

-Tutt

J35 · Post by **J35** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:19 pm

For me bench shooting is one of those necessary things that need's to be done,whether it's a new gun, sights, load or mold, I am good for about two hrs at a stretch then I have to find something just a little more challenging or call it a day.

-----J

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:18 am

J35nut wrote:For me bench shooting is one of those necessary things that need's to be done,whether it's a new gun, sights, load or mold, I am good for about two hrs at a stretch then I have to find something just a little more challenging or call it a day.

-----J

Any form of shooting can be as challenging as you want or as easy as you want !

The fellow that has a deer rifle and is happy with 3 shots in 3" at 100 yards usually takes no time and isn't much of a challenge . The fellow that wants 5 shots in 2/10ths of an inch or less is certainly another story and THAT IS A CHALLENGE !

For me shooting from the bench is all about seeing if I can get groups that are less then a 1/10 of an inch larger then the diameter of the bullet . And let me tell you that isn't something that happens very often .

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:14 pm

Chuck 100 yd wrote:Each to his/her own. For me the fun is working up loads for my rifles and I am not a good enough shot without a rest to tell if one load shoots into 1/2" rather than 3/4" at 100 yd.
If I had to test loads off hand the first load I tried would shoot as well as any other.

I understand this but I have to agree that I don't spend enough time on the basic positions. My Dad taught me to shoot, he was deadly with iron sights....never shot a scope until he was in his late 40's and still didn't like them. Then Uncle Sam put the polish on me. After some of the best instruction in the world I became a pretty good rifle shot.

In my mid-20's I got really heavy into precision reloading, not bench rest shooting really...just standard mildly tuned hunting rifles and seeking the smallest groups possible with a variety of bullet weights in each rifle from the bench. Prior to that I had always sighted my rifle's in from the prone. Probably 90% of my shooting was done from the bench and my position shooting really suffered because of it.

Now I usually settle on one bullet weight/type per caliber/rifle and after load development and sight in is finished I never take that gun back to the bench unless I have to remove the scope. About 90% of my shooting now is from the basic positions and my shooting is almost back as good as it was in my youth.

When teaching new shooter's, young or older, I don't care much for single shot, iron sighted rifles. As baby's we learn to crawl before we walk/run. Using a red-dot or other optic removes one point from the focal plane and is easier to make hits with early on. About the gun all I require is a positive safety, no pull knobs, and a decent trigger....pretty wide field. 10yds, from the prone with a 3" bullseye is a pretty good place to start in my experience.

Rob