.32-20 Help!!

[holeysocks]

Hello to All:
I am confused and need to see if y'all could help clarify a article I read by Paco Kelly. Entitled "32-20 WINCHESTER CENTERFIRE 1882"
1st let me give You some info into what I am shooting and maybe this will help you understand my dilemma. I am shooting a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector(1905) and a Savage Sporter Model 23C , both in great condition!!
The question lies in the strength rating Mr. Kelly gives and the load formulas given in the article for each strength chart. I think my Hand Ejector fall into the 1st "Level 2" titled "Late 1890s to 1920 or so W92s" Does everyone agree with that??? and I believe the Savage Sporter Model 23C would fall into the 2nd level titled "Strong Class 2 Guns" does everyone agree with this???
Most reloading manuals are not very plain as to the type of firearm used, and only usually only say use firearms in good condition!! I loaded 50 rounds with 7grs of AA#9 and ended up with a bullet stuck in the barrel of my brand new to me Smith & Wesson!!!!

Any Help would be greatly appreciated
Sox

[AJMD429]

Some experts in the area will chime in shortly, but I'll just say I've got an old S&W like that, and an even older Marlin 1889, and I shoot very light loads in them, just because those are my 'fun' guns, and not for self-defense or hunting.

However, I liked the cartridge's potential so much that in the forty years since I got the originals (inherited), I eventually got hold of 'modern' ones in a Ruger Blackhawk and Marlin 1894 from the 1980's or so. THOSE I load the 'spicey' loads for (still not all that 'hot', because I just don't need that much power, or I'll just use a 357 Mag instead), because I know I won't damage them, and they are indeed ones I use where a safe and humane kill might be needed, vs. just 'range fun'.

WELCOME to the forum, by the way.

[JayF in AZ]

A 1905 HE was made before they started heat treating. No way would I assume it's as strong as a 92 of any vintage. Back then they sold "rifle only" .32-20 loads and I'm sure more than a few were fired in handguns. I don't know if any blew up but I wouldn't want to do it .

[Tycer]

Two different loads. These are from Sixgun. 3 grains Bullseye for the HE and Up to 5,5 Unique for the rifle under 115 grain cast bullets

[holeysocks]

This is why is was confused!! My H. E. clearly falls into the Specs, given for the 1st level,, I do not want to hurt it, but a would like to preform well and I Don't want any more bullets stuck in the barrel !!!
From want I understand you are correct JayF in AZ.. There were Standard and High Velocity were available, and I have read a couple of places stay away from the High Velocity in the Hand Ejector, I had already came to that conclusion

[jdad]

I used the information in this table, for low velocity 32-20 loads, when I had a HE and an early Colt SAA. There is load data using 20 different powders.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm


I'm assuming you used lead and not jacketed bullets.

[earlmck]

And Sox, there's no way your 7 grains AA9 should have stuck in the barrel. Somehow the primer failed to ignite the powder in order to produce your stuck bullet. Any chance you had a case without a powder charge? And I've had stuck bullets when H110 failed to ignite with a standard primer, but I've not heard of AA9 being tough to ignite, though I've not used it myself.

[holeysocks]

I fired 3 and all 3 got stuck!! I had to knock them Out with a cleaning rod
They were loaded with 7gr AA#9 and WSR primer and a 100gr copper plated bullet

[AJMD429]

I fired 3 and all 3 got stuck!! I had to knock them Out with a cleaning rod
They were loaded with 7gr AA#9 and WSR primer and a 100gr copper plated bullet

[JerryB]

holeysocks, welcome to the best place on the web. I have a Winchester 1892 rifle made in 1917, I have real good loads for 2400 and 5744 powders with the Hornady 85 grain XTP. The 2400 load is 8.7grains of powder and the 85 grain XTP bullet. Three shots averaged 1386 fps, well with in the limits of your rifle, but not for your S&W HE. There are a lot of 32wcf shooters here and you will get plenty of good help with your loads. So stick around and enjoy the place.

[holeysocks]

earlmck,, It could have been an ignition problem!! there was a lot of Unburned powder

[Sixgun]

Antique guns are the worst possible guns to be experimenting with unless you know exactly what you are doing. There are many variables that come into the equation that cannot be gleaned from loading manuals or talking to people on the internet.

Not condescending on you but just the fact that your load with the A.A. powder sticking a bullet in the bore and not being able to figure out what happened shows me you are inexperienced.....not stupid....inexperienced

We have all been there at one time. Get yourself a Ruger single action in 38/357 and learn on that gun.

If you insist, load your 32-20 with blackpowder and shoot one cartridge at a time.

You can't hurt the Savage but you could eat steel with the unheattreated 'Smith.---6

[Marvin S]

You need to do some looking on the HE but it is something like the fourth change when the cylinders got heat treated. I have one and researched it and it is heat treated. Just do a little research or send me the SN.

[earlmck]

I fired 3 and all 3 got stuck!! I had to knock them Out with a cleaning rod
They were loaded with 7gr AA#9 and WSR primer and a 100gr copper plated bullet

earlmck,, It could have been an ignition problem!! there was a lot of Unburned powder

Ouch! I'm thinking that somehow that AA9 and the WSR primer are not compatible. When a WSP primer failed to ignite H110 that's what I had: bullet stuck a couple inches up the barrel and a bunch of unburned powder making a mess in my revolver. In that case I switched to CCI or Federal magnum pistol primers (just for the ball powder -- still use WSP on everything else) and have never had another failure to fire.

[holeysocks]

The article in question http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3220wcf.htm

[EdinCT]

I have a similar situation and load light loads in Brass cases and hotter loads in nickel cases. I would also ask did you have a strong crimp on the loads that stuck in the barrel? I know Ken Waters said he had issues with velocity changes in the 32 WCF and I believe he said it may of been related to ignition problems due to crimp.

[holeysocks]

Crimp is the most likely culprit.. However, I am Leery to crimp much more,, Another possible contributing factor is the fact that the 100gr copper Plated Bullets don't have a
cannelure making it harder the hold the bullet firmly, without taking a chance on crushing the brass !!

[holeysocks]

Sixgun,, Not to be disrespectful,, The main question was a strength question,, in relationship to Mr. Palco's article, not a reloading question, The Industry standard for the .32-20 is 16,000 cup, Mr Palco's article, plainly states my S&W Hand Ejector is capable of around 20,000 Cup,, Is this true??
My biggest Reloading mistake was my bullet choice

[holeysocks]

Marvin S,,, there is some confusion about the serial number of my gun,,, Apparently,,, at some point my gun was reserial numbered,, some were removed and some added.
Here is the description from the auction

This is #17 in the group of revolvers being listed for the estate of the Smith & Wesson collector and it is a mystery! First, the frame has been renumbered with Serial No. 11204 and the serial numbers on the cylinder, barrel and the frame at the yoke, have been removed. But Serial No. 70937, on the yoke, was not removed.

This revolver evidently started out as a .32-20 Hand Ejector Model of 1903 or 1905, but it appears that possibly the barrel has been replaced at some point. Why the serial numbers were removed remains a mystery.

The frame is a 5 screw model, with a rounded top strap and a "U" shaped rear sight notch. The 6", Nickel plated, pinned barrel, has "Smith & Wesson" stamped on the left side of the barrel and ".32-20 CTG" stamped on the right side of the barrel. "Smith & Wesson Springfield,Mass.U.S.A" over "Patented Feb. 6, 06,Sept. 14, 09, Dec. 29, 14" is stamped on the barrel top.

The present configuration of serial numbers and markings make it difficult to identify the exact model. Even if S/N 70937 on the yoke is correct, that would make the date of manufacture between 1915 and 1940 and the frame would have a flattened top strap. This frame has a rounded top strap and the barrel markings are different.

In any event, mismatched or what, the very weak S&W Logo stamping on the sideplate strongly indicates that the revolver has been refinished at some point. The bore and chambers are bright, with strong rifling in the bore and the lock up is tight with good timing. The Diamond checkered Walnut grips are in very good condition, solid, with no cracks or splits, just normal wear.

I bought the gun to shoot not be a Safe Queen so ANYTHING YOU CAN TELL ME would be greatly appreciated

[holeysocks]

jdad... Thank You!!! Very Cool Page!!

[Sixgun]

Holysocks, (where did you come up with that name? )

Jacketed bullets will build up pressure much faster and will more easily ignite slow burning powders than cast bullets. AA # 9 has a burn rate similar to 2400, maybe even a tad slower. Powders of this burn rate operate best at near max pressures which (from memory here, I'm laying in bed with an I Pad) with a 100 gr bullet would be about 10-11 grains.

When you pulled the trigger, there was not enough compression to properly ignite the powder so the pressure of the primer knocked the bullet forward which further increased internal volume, making it even harder to ignite. My guess is the outside temps were cold which aggravated the problem more. 10 grains would have worked but these pressures most likely would have bulged the cylinder or blew it up on your yet-to-be-determined vintage of this 'smith.

Slow powders with weak charges are terrible choices for any gun and the proper charge that will work should be reserved for single action Colts or Rugers. Even if your gun was of a later
vintage, say...20's to end of production (1940) they were not designed for the heavier loads....thin cylinders and thin top strap are not conductive to safety.e

Forget all serial numbers on any part of the gun except the frame. That's the one that counts if you think the rest of the parts originally came with the gun.
If you don't know, stay with small charges of fast burning powders and pay attention while charging the cases. A safe and effective load for the 32-20 in smaller framed guns is 3 grs of Bullseye or 4 grains of Unique. Forget any powder slower than Unique and I don't care how many people use Blue Dot or 2400 with total success. I have too. I've been shooting old 'smiths and Colts in 32-20 for 40 years and have used about everything that could be stuffed in them. Cold temperatures, improper indexing, cast bullets, jacketed bullets, primer, which direction the gun is pointed, barrel and cylinder dimensions, cylinder gap, mainspring tension, and even the dimensions of your loading dies, along with the crimp you apply all add to the variables which can contribute to the success or failure of your shooting experience. Light charges of a fast burning powder will eliminate a lot of these variables.

That's why they call me Sixgun. ------6

[Marvin S]

Heat treated cylinders were supposed to begin at SN 81287 for a 1905 HE 4th change.

[AJMD429]

Jacketed bullets will . . . . . . a lot of these variables.

That's why they call me Sixgun. ------6

Great education there; thanks, Sixgun...!

[Sixgun]

Your welcome Doc. Where guns are talked about, I talk. -------6

[holeysocks]

I wish Paco Kelly would answer

[arjunky]

I wish Paco Kelly would answer

He hasn't posted here in quite awhile.

Byron

I just checked its been a little over 3 years since Paco has posted.
As far as the advice on the old Colts or Smiths, Sixguns advice can be considered close to gospel.

[holeysocks]

ok

[arjunky]

Quote from Paco.
"Again be sure the old gun is strong and tight. Certainly the old Colt S/As of this time and into the teens of the 1900s can take a lot of pressure as Keith said...but why do that to a fine old gun....there are modern 32-20s out there to reach mag velocities if you want. The steel in the old to mid modern guns is not like the steel of today."
I guess I don't know what your looking for, but this looks like it's not a recommendation to abuse an older gun.

Byron

[arjunky]

I was digging around some of my books and found Ken Waters did a pretty good article and load developement for the 1905 HE if you can find a book of his.

Byron

[arjunky]

Holeysocks, I've got an older Ken Waters Pet Loads book. If you will pm me your address your welcome to it.
Byron

[holeysocks]

THANK YOU!!!!!!