Max Loads w/IMR 3031 & Win. 94

[Michaux]

I'm loading for a Win. '94 (circa 1963) 30-30 and using IMR 3031 with a 150 gr. Sierra FN. I've been loading for 40 years but I'm confused by the wide disparity of max's and the 30-30 with this powder. What are some max loads you guys are using in your '94's with this combination of powder and 150 gr. bullets. I'm seeing max loads all over the place; anywhere from 28.5 grs. to 33.0 grs. in my manuals, Handloader/American Rifleman Magazine articles, and Water's Pet Loads. I've settled on 31.0 grs. to try as it seems to be a tried and true load. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

Michaux

[Tycer]

I for one no longer care about max loads other than as a stopping point. It's not a goal. My goal is accuracy. I'm finding that only one gun I own likes a max load. You'll hear over and over "Every gun is a law unto itself" and it's true. Start low and watch your targets. Chances are you'll end up below all of the max loads. Use the most current max as your stop in that 94.

Currently the max load is 30.5 on the manufacturer website.

Edit: I just reread you've been loading 40 years. I wrote the above for a newbie. My guess on different max loads has to do with input affecting output. They are not all using the same components including the same barrel.

[Michaux]

Thanks Tycer: I've loaded just about everything over the years, just not 30-30...why I don't know. I've just never seen max's vary so much.

Michaux

[earlmck]

A couple of things are going on that probably explain the large variation in "max loads" you are seeing, Michaux. First is that 3031 has been made dang near forever, so imagine the lot-to-lot variation in powder you could have when observed over decades. My first 3031 was manufactured by DuPont, so there has been some name change along with manufacturer/ownership change over these many years.

A second thing is that if you stay within SAAMI maximums for the 30/30 you are below any pressure range that you can reliably "eyeball" so you would have to have access to a pressure barrel to truly stay below SAAMI. At this point note that 32 grains of 3031 fits nicely in the case under your 150 grain bullet with maybe a teensy compression (depending on your case) and would give a nice appearing load even though it exceeds SAAMI by a bit and you will see why folks without pressure barrels might show this as their max load.

[BrentD]

I have been looking for a can of 3031 to try and not found it yet. What would a max load be for a "modern" dimensioned .38-55 and 250 gr lead bullet? I would guess something similar.

[Rusty]

My max accuracy load was 28 grains 3031 and a speer 150 gr.

[J Miller]

This will date me a whole bunch, but when I started loading the 30-30 the rule of thumb with Dupont IMR 3031 was 30 grs for a 170 gr, and 31 grs for a 150gr bullet.
Strange coincidence isn't it 3031.

I've shot both loads over the years when I've bought or was given 3031 and it has worked well.

I think I still have some loaded with those loads.

Joe

[mikld]

No offence to the OP, but why do folks look at the maximum charges first? Second post on looking at a max. load I've read today. Same type post; "I've noticed quite a variation in maximum loads for...". Most don't bother with "most accurate" or "best shooting" loads, just go to max. load inquires. If I wanted maximum performance from a 30-30, I'd go up to a 30-30 AI or a 35 Rem. I have been reloading for nearly 30 years and rarely do I find a the best load for any gun to be at or near maximum... o

[shooter]

No offence to the OP, but why do folks look at the maximum charges first? Second post on looking at a max. load I've read today. Same type post; "I've noticed quite a variation in maximum loads for...". Most don't bother with "most accurate" or "best shooting" loads, just go to max. load inquires. If I wanted maximum performance from a 30-30, I'd go up to a 30-30 AI or a 35 Rem. I have been reloading for nearly 30 years and rarely do I find a the best load for any gun to be at or near maximum... o

This is just coming from my experience, and not speaking for anyone else, but I always look at the max load. Otherwise, how do you know when to stop? When I am trying to figure up a new load, I usually start around the lowest printed charge, then load in .5 grain increments all the way up to max. I do 3-5 rounds at each charge, then I group them and see which one works best. Without knowing what the max load is, you run the risk of getting up there into dangerous pressures. Probably won't hurt the gun for one or two shots, but if you're over the max by a couple of grains because of old info and feed your gun a steady diet you could have problems. I can see the confusion and the reason for the question, especially when the OP is stating that he is finding a range of +/- 4 grains as published maximum loads.

[Michaux]

No offence to the OP, but why do folks look at the maximum charges first? Second post on looking at a max. load I've read today. Same type post; "I've noticed quite a variation in maximum loads for...". Most don't bother with "most accurate" or "best shooting" loads, just go to max. load inquires. If I wanted maximum performance from a 30-30, I'd go up to a 30-30 AI or a 35 Rem. I have been reloading for nearly 30 years and rarely do I find a the best load for any gun to be at or near maximum... o

My question was in regard to the seemingly greater max load variance I'm seeing in manuals using IMR 3031 with 150 gr. bullets in the 30-30 then what I'm used to seeing with other rounds. Nothing more. I've been loading 40 years and I don't "just go to max".

Michaux

[mikld]

No offence to the OP, but why do folks look at the maximum charges first? Second post on looking at a max. load I've read today. Same type post; "I've noticed quite a variation in maximum loads for...". Most don't bother with "most accurate" or "best shooting" loads, just go to max. load inquires. If I wanted maximum performance from a 30-30, I'd go up to a 30-30 AI or a 35 Rem. I have been reloading for nearly 30 years and rarely do I find a the best load for any gun to be at or near maximum... o

My question was in regard to the seemingly greater max load variance I'm seeing in manuals using IMR 3031 with 150 gr. bullets in the 30-30 then what I'm used to seeing with other rounds. Nothing more. I've been loading 40 years and I don't "just go to max".

Michaux

I meant no offence nor disrespect. What I was saying is that I'm seeing many more questions from some that are regarding max. loads, not "where to start" or "most accurate", but mostly "how hard can I push it" type questions. I usually find hard extraction, bad accuracy, or case head imprinting/primer flow, etc. before I reach the book max., and usually start at the "starting load". The only gun/cartridge that worked well for me at max. loading is my .357 Mag. shooting 158 gr. lead SWC over max. loads of True Blue, but I got there from the starting load and working up...

When I figgered my 30-30 wasn't "big enough", I went to a 30-06...

[Griff]

No offence to the OP, but why do folks look at the maximum charges first? Second post on looking at a max. load I've read today. Same type post; "I've noticed quite a variation in maximum loads for...". Most don't bother with "most accurate" or "best shooting" loads, just go to max. load inquires. If I wanted maximum performance from a 30-30, I'd go up to a 30-30 AI or a 35 Rem. I have been reloading for nearly 30 years and rarely do I find a the best load for any gun to be at or near maximum... o

This is just coming from my experience, and not speaking for anyone else, but I always look at the max load. Otherwise, how do you know when to stop? When I am trying to figure up a new load, I usually start around the lowest printed charge, then load in .5 grain increments all the way up to max. I do 3-5 rounds at each charge, then I group them and see which one works best. Without knowing what the max load is, you run the risk of getting up there into dangerous pressures. Probably won't hurt the gun for one or two shots, but if you're over the max by a couple of grains because of old info and feed your gun a steady diet you could have problems. I can see the confusion and the reason for the question, especially when the OP is stating that he is finding a range of +/- 4 grains as published maximum loads.

I also always look at the max load... right before I look at the minimum load, make a quick calculation to determine a median starting point. As for:

Otherwise, how do you know when to stop?

The stopping point lies simply in when accuracy falls off or you have issues with extraction, flattened primers beyond the norm or other signs that you're getting too high a pressure in YOUR gun. Other than giving me a high to use for my calculating a starting load, the maximum load listed is pretty much meaningless. For individual guns vary far too much to rely on generic load data...

[Canuck Bob]

When I researched 4227 for my 32-20 I found quite a variation as well. Then I stumbled on threads discussing old and new 4227 and a bewildering amount of info regarding changes in manufacturing, continents, and such. The move to Australia effected Hodgson's data a bit. Apparently manufacturers design their products to be similar under a named brand but slight variations are to be expected.

I use Hodgdon's online manual (they often report the pressure data) and Load Data's services from Handloader mostly and cross check all the reports plus use my 4 paper manuals. I also keep amateur internet research to a minimum and have over time come to trust some sources from the clear and concise way in which they report their research. This site has a bunch of gurus but there are a lot of wannabes online who use max as their starting point believing they can cheat the safety margin safely or are just plain dumb rumps loading to a velocity target rather than a pressure target.

Having said this I see no need to judge anyone who wishes to squeeze all they can safely from a rifle/cartridge combo. It seems like an honest part of our hobby a worthy undertaking. Studying precision long range stuff is eye opening. MOA at 1000 yards with a sledge hammer kicking overbore magnum gets my respect every time but not my wallet or shoulder.

I started reloading because my 444 didn't come with a heavy enough bullet for my moose hunting. I loaded it with manuals and followed the rules for careful workup. I loaded max at first and was glad to sacrifice a little accuracy for some punch. I wasn't wrong just changed my perspective and goals.

In the lever world there is Saami specs for the 32-20 and Paco's specs at the other end. I don't load to his levels but do trust his advice. He loads strong levers hot and I ain't arguing guns with that guy preferring to sit and listen! He also had buddies in the major ballistic labs. One of my plans is to workup some varmint 32 Special loads from his article on hot loading the 30-30 with light bullets.