1538 yards with an 11mm Mauser...

[Barcelona Rick]

CowboyTutt that is some very fine shooting sir and an outstanding rifle. Doc great thread...thank you...

rick

[JReed]

Thanks Ray. I bookmarked both of those. I have read about Sandy Hook before but its been a while. The 45-70 500 grain round nosed bullet is about as good as it gets for ultra long range shooting.

Jeremy, nice to see you too. Did you ever get a motorsickle?

-Tutt

No haven't gotten another yet. With one kid in high school and the other in JR high resources get tight lol. Especially when they want bows and hunting stuff. Lol

[Ben_Rumson]

Thanks for posting Tutt & all... I too love the beautifully made BP Mausers... I have had a couple of each kind... I swapped a 1917 Colt for one of the unfired 71/84s and got laughed at by those supposedly in the know at that gun show... But the shear beauty of the rifles the Old School German Faktory military rifle makers produced, the Colt couldn't even hold a candle to...Not only that, The quality sounds the action made when it was cycled is something that will stay in your bones for a long time if you are a true gun crank...Something about that sound & feel the cartridge lifter added ( a solid clop-clop sound )it being a billet of milled steel I think was the key...But in the military turn bolt BP rifles I'm a single shot man so the M1871 is the on I've had the most fun with...
Talking 71 Mausers...Hey Ray..I got a great result with the Lyman 457124 sized down to .446 & 22gr of the old 2400... don't know how it would have done at long range but at a hunnert my first group with that combo made an inch and a quarter slot, unfortunately a foot above the paper & in the wood backer... No worry went home go the Nylon 66 came back and "sawed" the group out

[CowboyTutt]

OK, I had to put myself in the time out box. First off, I want to say that I think BP is cool stuff. I enjoy it being shot by my friends at FoBD. I like the big low boom it makes, the smoke, the smell, its very cool!

I don't get this notion of "you smokeless powder people." I have never felt that vibe at FoBD at all. I'm shooting at the firing line and Allan Aman and Butch and Shirley Jarvis are shooting black and kicking butt! But in my experience I don't see one powder type having the advantage over the other which is why we don't discriminate between "black powder people" and "smokeless people" at FoBD. If we get enough people for a BP only shoot, we would certainly do it. But otherwise, we don't discriminate based upon your powder choice. Both are very competitive. The wind drift is by far more a problem than the vertical stringing.

I'm told that most top level BP shooters can achieve an Standard Deviation (SD) of about 5 fps. That's what my load tested out at interestingly and that's pretty exceptional for either powder type. I'm told I can probably get low single digit SD's using floral foam like the Scheutzen guys. I may have to try that but I think I'm at the limit of intrinsic accuracy that I can take advantage of with iron sights.

Don, I did some calculations for an ES of 2 using a ten shot string with the sequence of 1200, 1201 and 1202 and repeating the sequence. I came up with an SD of less than one foot per second!!! I would have to see that to believe it, but I'm told its possible if unlikely. If you can load any cartridge to that type of intrinsic accuracy, BP or smokeless, your an extraordinary handloader! I have never seen that done myself.

I'm also sure that if smokeless was available in 1888 when my rifle was made, Mauser would have used it. He was one of the very first to use it when it did become available.

I totally support others in the use of BP. I just don't clean my guns that much to be honest and I don't want to start over again with load development and the tools needed for a super accurate BP load. I'm happy where I'm at with my smokeless loads but I may tweak them a bit next time around.

I hope we can all meet up for a shoot someday at FoBD. There is no adversity there. We are all just "people", no superlatives.

-Tutt

[Don McDowell]

Tutt you need to visit with Butch a little bit more about loading blackpowder and the kind of low SD that it's achievable. Butch and Shirley are good folk.
I won't ever be at a FOBD and you know the reason why.
Good luck to you, I sincerely apologize for participating in your thread.

[CowboyTutt]

Don, glad to hear Butch and Shirley are still around. Very good folk. I don't mind you posting in the thread, it was good information. I'm no expert in BP as is readily apparent.

I honestly don't remember why you won't come out to FoBD. Sorry to hear that. Maybe you can remind me by PM or something?

I think it was you years ago who helped me with paper patching if I'm not wrong? Thanks again for that too. It didn't really work out for me, but it was fun to experiment with. I could not have done it as well without your help.

Regards,

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

I was able to find the contact info for Butch and Shirley and just hung up with both of them. He doesn't know what his loads are chronographing at as he hasn't done so in a very long time but it was an SD of less than 5. He's able to shoot sub minute of angle though easily. So I'd say he's good to go. And Shirley in 2012 took 8 gold metals in one national match using Butch's rifle. Wow.

It turns out he was already working on hosting an event at FoBD with Torkelson and we are going to try to make it in late June if we can so I can attend. Butch knows a lot of people so we can probably put on a big event. I won't be very competitive with my Mauser but he had some good advice for me. He also had a mold maker for me to talk too. So the phone call was perfectly timed. I'm glad you suggested it Don.

-Tutt

[Ray Newman]

"Hey Ray..I got a great result with the Lyman 457124 sized down to .446 & 22gr of the old 2400... "
--Ben__Rumson

Ben: how were you able to size the .457" bullet down that far??

I only loaded with the RCBS Mauser bullet and Black Powder.

All this talk of the M71 and the 71/84 Mauser is starting to get me geared up to see how well Paper patch and Black Powder will shoot.

[Ben_Rumson]

My dad and I did this back about 1973 or so... The alloy was the Lyman #2 as spec'd from what info came with their molds at the time...We first sized the dropped bullets down to.457 then down to .452 then down to .446...Lubed with Tamarack 50-50 NRA formula alox
With all the sizing The cool thing ( not by intent but a lucky turn)was that the driving band disappeared with the result that the bullet nose got a good ways into the rifling...a near bore rider config...
If you look on the Knox Form of these old BP Mausers the metric bore & groove diameter figures are stamped on them on a flat above the wood line right next to where the barrel abuts the receiver which may give you a leg up on patching or choosing a rifle that you come across ... Good luck...

[CowboyTutt]

Some really interesting responses about the 11mm cartridge. I thought you might enjoy some pics of the original factory ammo:







I believer the number on the left is the month and the number on the right is the year.

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

Working on a new load that will have even more intrinsic accuracy and something equal to what the current BP guys are using like Don. Not that it will matter much because I'm shooting to the best of my ability using the stock iron ladder sights on my 1888 produced rifle. But I'm going to try to "up my game" in smokeless powder loads, and how to maximize my view of the front sight. Maybe I can even still be competitive. I hope so. -Tutt

[madman4570]

Very interesting stuff Tutt

[Borregos]

Very interesting stuff Tutt

It certainly is, I can see how very long range rifle shooting could become addictive

[Griff]

Very interesting stuff Tutt

It certainly is, I can see how very long range rifle shooting could become OBSSESSIVE

There, fixed that for ya!!!

[Borregos]

Very interesting stuff Tutt

It certainly is, I can see how very long range rifle shooting could become OBSSESSIVE

There, fixed that for ya!!!

Thank you Griff, I was not sure how many esses there were in obssessive (sic)

[CowboyTutt]

Some nice ones for sale on GB, some even nicer than mine.

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Ke ... f84+mauser

Brass is still available but has gone up in price. Bertram is the good stuff.

http://www.huntingtons.com/store/produc ... ctid=17150

-Tutt

[3leggedturtle]

What a great read and post. Thank you 3leg

[CowboyTutt]

Hey 3legged, your welcome no problem.

All this talk of the M71 and the 71/84 Mauser is starting to get me geared up to see how well Paper patch and Black Powder will shoot.

Ray, I purchased some paper patching material and tools from the good folk at Buffalo Arms. I also had help from Don McDowell and you may want to PM him if you need some help like I did. You probably already know about it more than I do though.

From some recent data that's been posted here I'm seeing FFFg? seems to be the BP of choice for accurate BP loads and would probably apply to the 11mm.

Burney at Old West Bullet Moulds in CO has my 485 grain bullet samples now and is going to make me two top pore moulds. Then I will cast some with Shootist Jim Williamson in SoCal over Spring Break.

If anyone does develop some BP loads I would really like to hear about it (hint hint Ray!)

My loads again are "bore riders" and too long to cycle through the action. Also there is basically no crimp and loads are fired single shot. We found that crimping seemed to harm accuracy.

-Tutt

[Ray Newman]

Tutt: I started to campaign with Black Powder (BP) and Paper Patch (PP) in my Shiloh-Sharps and the 45-110 Borchardt about 4 years and have not looked back. So far -- in those rifles -- 1:30 PP slugs shoot better than the 1:20 bullets.

I also switched from GOEX to KIKI BP and found the KIK to shooter better. Or, maybe after almost 30 years of shooting BP, I am starting to learn something??….

Have not shot the M71 Mauser in about 8-9 years, maybe even longer. When I did shoot it, I loaded with BP and the RCBS .43 Mauser grease groove bullet. Was fun to shoot, but it did lead. Need to get it out of the vault and load up some BP and PP.

[CowboyTutt]

1:30 PP slugs shoot better than the 1:20 bullets.

That could very well be so!

I also switched from GOEX to KIKI BP and found the KIK to shooter better. Or, maybe after almost 30 years of shooting BP, I am starting to learn something??….

This is clearly your area of expertise and not mine!!!

When I did shoot it, I loaded with BP and the RCBS .43 Mauser grease groove bullet. Was fun to shoot, but it did lead. Need to get it out of the vault and load up some BP and PP.

What was the ratio of lead alloy? If the bore is rough or pitted, the softer alloys will shoot better from what I have read. But they might lead the barrel sooner too.

My accuracy started to diminish after about 12 rounds and I would have to clean my barrel using the Montana bullets originally intended for BP.

I would love to hear about your experiences on this thread or a new one using BP and PP bullets in the 11mm Mauser. Makes no difference to me! Its all good!

Regards!

-Tutt

[Ray Newman]

Alloy: probably was 1:20. Now with paper Patch (PP) I find that 1:30 alloy in the rifles I mentioned shoot better than 1:20 with KIK BP. Some shooters claim 1:40 is best. As with all things BP cartridge there are no hard and fast rules, except trial and error....

Bore: pristine. Rifle appears to have seen very little use as it was marked as a reserve/replacement rifle for one lots/damaged in service.

Accuracy: Only shot the rifle at 200 yards and my eyesight was never the best. From what I recall, after about 6-7 rounds the groups opened up. Can not recall group sizes. Powder might have been the now-defunct GOEX Cartridge grade. Shot that for awhile, then switched back to GOEX FFg and some FFFg. Now whether it all was the result of the wrong alloy, wrong powder granulation, wrong lubricant, or all three, I can not speculate. My SWAG (Scientific Wild Arsed Guess) is that the rifle would probably shoot better with Fg or FFg powder.

Cases: Mauser A-base from Bell.

Primer(s), wad(s), lubricating disc:??

The 71 Mauser was my first foray into a BP bottle neck cartridge. The more I think about it, I last shot the rifle before I moved from the San Francisco Bay Area and I have been living up here for 12 years. So it has been awhile since the rifle has been to the range. Need to get it out again. Should check the ammunition box to see if there is any load data.

[CowboyTutt]

Got you confused with someone else. Sorry!!! -Tutt

[Ray Newman]

Tutt: found no load data in the ammunition box, but did find something in an old notebook, entry dated 6/15/'97 --

11.15 x 60mmR (.43 Mauser)-

--77gr GOEX Cartridge (No mention of by weight or volume. Most likely by weight.)
--Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primer
--RCBS 395 gr bullet, .449" diameter, 1:30
--Pan lubed with SPG
--2 fiber wads (no note of diameter or thickness)
--Cartridge overall length 3.083"

As I said, this load did cause some leading and was only shot at 200 yards. It could have been caused by the magnum primer or the lube being re-heated too many times. I have found that magnum primers do not work as well with BP as do the CCI BR-2 primers. And the lube could just well have become over heated for too long in the double boiler. Or the wads were not the right diameter or material.

I need to slug the bore and then determine the length of a paper patch loaded round bullet will work through the action, then work on a load that will work without leading and give accuracy say out to 200 yards. I may have a smaller diameter Paper Patch bullet that might work. Would like to shoot further, but my eyes are not as sharp as they once were.

What was the point of your last post?

[CowboyTutt]

Ray, thanks for posting that information. And I apologize for my earlier post. I was so tired I confused you with someone else. To be honest, its been a pretty tough work week. Kids have been acting out all week.

You know, I may have to try some BP after all just to try it out for fun. When I get my new 485 grain bullets cast around Spring time, if you want I'll send you some to try. They shoot about 2-3 inches high at 100 yards as compared to the standard 380 grain bullet which is more like 8-10 inches high. Again, sorry for my stupidity.

Regards,

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

Ray, I'm re-reading your post and find it interesting. I also like using the CCI BR-2 primers or the BR-4 in other cartridges. I found this pic buried in my Photo Bucket account. Finished bullet weights were 373, 430 and 500 grains. I think I purchased the PP bullets from Buffalo Arms at the time but I'm not sure and they don't seem to be available there now. The 500 grain bullet is the one I currently use from Montana Bullet Swaging and that I'm having custom moulds made for in a slightly different configuration so I can cast them myself in the right hardness and right lube.



-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

I did stumble upon some loaded BP ammo from Buffalo Arms. When you figure the cases are $3 each, the price of this loaded ammo at $14 dollars more almost seems reasonable. -Tutt

http://www.buffaloarms.com/43_Mauser_Bl ... x?CAT=4443

[Ray Newman]

Tutt: no problem on the post.

Anyway, I think at this time, I will pass on your offer to try some bullets.

Been thinking about this for the better part of the day. My SWAG (Scientific Arsed Guess) concluded that the aforementioned (pardon me while I wax eloquent) load leaded because the bullet was designed for White Powder (AKA Smokeless) and it does not carry enough lube to soften the Black Powder (BP) fouling.

Will need to remove the mould from storage and exam the grease grooves. If I recall, the grooves were not very wide or deep. If my SWAG is correct, it will not be the first time that I had such problems with a Smokeless bullet loaded with BP.

When the weather turns better, I will fire up the lead pot and cast a few 1:30 slugs, pan lube, then place a lubricating disc between two card wads atop the BP to determine if that improves the BP fouling control.

But I am first"gonna' try the smaller diameter PP bullets that I have on hand. Just might work with the appropriate paper thickness.

Need to find some information on the nose design of the original German/Bavarian M71 11mm Mauser bullet. Heard and read that it was a round nose bullet as opposed to a flat point for the M71/84. Also need to know of it was straight sided or tapered, flat base or cupped. .If I get all that figured out, just might order an adjustable paper Patch mould.

‘Ya’ know if this all works out, I will need a reproduction Picklehaube to wear when shooting the Mauser.