Another vote for TERRY

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GoatGuy
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Another vote for TERRY

Post by GoatGuy »

Here’s my two cents on the whining going on about Terry, and if he is, or he is not a rotten, hateful so-and so.

I’ve been a “gun nut” for as long as I can remember, though grew up in a home with a dad who had two guns. A single shot 28” barrel, 20 ga. shotgun and a Marlin model 20 .22. His brother in law gave him the Marlin when Dad was 12 or 13 yrs. old. That would have been in 1923 or 24. So, in the 1950’s when I became gun consumed, you can tell there had not been a lot of gun love or conversation in my home. I give this preamble to let you know my growing up years.

Sometime around 1957 I bought my first gun, a stock butchered Arisaka 7.7mm “war bring back” from a school buddy. Paid $7.50 for it. Next gun was a 1917 Colt in .45 acp. for $17.99. Next came a Model 62 Winchester pump which I traded for a customized, caliber converted (.300 Savage) :lol: Arisaka. That one didn’t last long. I then got something else, then something else and so on, so on and so on. I have no idea how many rifles, shotguns and handguns have occupied my closets, bureau drawers and safes over the last 5 decades. Many came and some went within a short time, and others have stayed on to the present.

I have been reloading ammunition since mid-1960’s and repairing and occasional customizing my guns since 1970’s. In 1980 I purchased parts, ramrod blank, and a maple stock blank at Dixie Gun Works. Four hundred hours later I had built a .40 caliber, 43” octagon barreled, full stocked, Missouri pattern caplock rifle from the Dixie pieces and parts. A powder horn, short starter, patch knife, gunstock warclub and possibles bag were also made during that time. I killed my first Ozark whitetail buck with that rifle. The rifle now hangs from a prominent display in my den and has never been fired since taking that buck.

My point in this post is, …my learning and doing over these last 5 decades was accomplished without seeking, and depending on advice garnered from any internet forum posting. Many books were purchased over the years and judiciously read. Occasionally, individuals were sought out to answer questions about issues with which I needed assistance. Just recently, I contacted two individuals introduced to me through this Levergun site, 86er and our Rossi‘92 guru. By contacting these men directly, I felt I would be able to get to the meat of my needs without wading through a bunch of conflicting opinions, and technical advice about things which I was already knowledgeable.

Now back to “Terry the Terror”. I believe what TERRY’s “rants”, as some would label his comments, are based on the concept of “do your own homework”. I COMPLETELY agree! That’s what I and most others here have had to do, since there wasn’t the crutch of the internet when a lot of us here were coming of age and needed information or assistance. Seek out answers on your own, learn from your mistakes, buy loading manuals (plural). Spend time at the range trying out various loads appropriate to you needs and guns. Spend time reading and doing instead of coming to this site and asking others to give you the magic answer to your needs. Do for yourself. Don’t clutter up bandwidth with questions that you can answer with your own initiative or which have been answered multiple times in many, many previous posts on the forum. I know Terry has posted that point of view in previous posts. And, oh brother, was he soundly chastised by many here who desperately want to “give him what for” for that opinion.

As has been stated several times by those who really know Terry, “he’s a good guy who doesn’t suffer fools gladly”. That’s not to mean that he’s not gruff, plain spoken, ungentlemanly and rude in his responses. He is often all of those, but it doesn’t mean that he should be called names, denigrated, treated as a pariah, maliciously poked fun at and taunted from the anonymity of a screen name. From what I see here from time to time, there are others who get tired of seeing the same or similar questions popping up with regularity. New members should perhaps be given a pass, but other veterans here are occasionally guilty of that same redundant “attention getting” device.

Finally, to suggest that Terry must be barely tolerated and suffered with by his “brother” Shootists is hardly the case, I would think. As I understand, the “Shootists” is a brotherhood of honorable men, with strong and longstanding experience whose members are invited to join and aren’t extended such invitation in a frivolous manner. I wouldn’t dare to denigrate any member of the body of shooters who make up the group as I’m confidant such membership is an honor to all the folks making up this body.

And lastly, don’t forget that everyone has an opinion just like everyone has one of those star-shaped things, of which MrMurphy so elegantly reminded us.

Boy this was sure longer than I had intended. Sorry for that, but I must have felt the need to get this off my chest. Oh, speaking of Shootists, a "Big Thank You", to the Razorback Shootist who guided me to this site some 7 or 8 years ago. It's been a real haven and great "time out from life" to come to this place to get to "know all you folks" and a relief from the boredom or stress of daily life we all experience on occasion. Here’s to better times, boys!! – John Jeffers
"If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them." - Basuto proverb.
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Tycer
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Tycer »

I LIKE IT !!!!!
We are a band of brothers, kinda like a small town overrun by the Lever brothers. The only just and upright ways in this town to get away from whiny brother x or crazy brother O or mean old Uncle Terry is to either ignore them or leave. All this bemoaning someone who truly could not care less what you think is a waste of your time. Move on my brothers, take a minute to give thanks for something tonight. Do it again in the morning. Dr. Ty says you'll feel better ;)
Last edited by Tycer on Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kind regards,
Tycer
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jazman
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by jazman »

This well thought out and written post just made my day. Thanks for posting this John.
"If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly"
Catshooter
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Catshooter »

John,

I see your points and they are well written and taken.

However, at least in my experience, without exception every truly honorable man (or woman) that I have ever met was a very polite person. Especially with strangers. To me, you can't be the one without the other just being a part of your nature. They are qualities that go hand in glove.

As the years go by this society that we live in gets more and more rude. The rules for being polite were trampled on years ago, and we are all lessened by it.

Terry is rude. There are always good and wonderful reasons to excuse bad behavior, but that's what they are: excuses.

So I cast my vote the other way.

Just my two cents.


Cat
Udy
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Udy »

I won't comment on the man, but this is a Discussion board, is it not? What else is it for if not asking questions. I have studied and read many of books on firearms and what not, but I might still ask a basic question on occasion, does that make me lazy??
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vancelw
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by vancelw »

GoatGuy wrote: My point in this post is, …my learning and doing over these last 5 decades was accomplished without seeking, and depending on advice garnered from any internet forum posting. Many books were purchased over the years and judiciously read. Occasionally, individuals were sought out to answer questions about issues with which I needed assistance. ......

..... “do your own homework”. I COMPLETELY agree! That’s what I and most others here have had to do, since there wasn’t the crutch of the internet when a lot of us here were coming of age and needed information or assistance. Seek out answers on your own, learn from your mistakes, buy loading manuals (plural). Spend time at the range trying out various loads appropriate to you needs and guns. Spend time reading and doing instead of coming to this site and asking others to give you the magic answer to your needs. Do for yourself. Don’t clutter up bandwidth with questions that you can answer with your own initiative or which have been answered multiple times in many, many previous posts on the forum. ...
I have a different opinion...

I love to read. I will gladly read any book I can get my hands on. But, sometimes you have to read 10 books to get to the one that has the information you need. That can get expensive nowadays. I do tend to hoard books of any age on the subjects of guns and hunting. The library doesn't tend to have those types of books.

It makes sense to ask someone a question on the internet! It's called networking. Why not learn from someone else's mistakes? Asking someone advice simply gives you a starting spot.

MY pet peeve is when somebody asks for real-world advice and get a bunch pooh-pooh naysayers giving chairborne opinions.

Let's stop making the same mistakes over and over again.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
GoatGuy
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by GoatGuy »

Catshooter wrote:John,

I see your points and they are well written and taken.

However, at least in my experience, without exception every truly honorable man (or woman) that I have ever met was a very polite person. Especially with strangers. To me, you can't be the one without the other just being a part of your nature. They are qualities that go hand in glove.

As the years go by this society that we live in gets more and more rude. The rules for being polite were trampled on years ago, and we are all lessened by it.

Terry is rude. There are always good and wonderful reasons to excuse bad behavior, but that's what they are: excuses.

So I cast my vote the other way.


Just my two cents.
Cat
Thank you, Cat. I appreciate your response. If you'll note, I agree that Terry is rude along with the other pejoratives I mentioned. My point is there really no reason to be hostile about his behavior and to attack him from behind a screen name for that behavior. He's not going to change.
My vote was not so much in favor of that behavior as understanding what he's saying and agreeing with SOME of what he say's, particularly about doing for yourself!
"If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them." - Basuto proverb.
GoatGuy
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by GoatGuy »

vancelw wrote:
GoatGuy wrote: My point in this post is, …my learning and doing over these last 5 decades was accomplished without seeking, and depending on advice garnered from any internet forum posting. Many books were purchased over the years and judiciously read. Occasionally, individuals were sought out to answer questions about issues with which I needed assistance. ......

..... “do your own homework”. I COMPLETELY agree! That’s what I and most others here have had to do, since there wasn’t the crutch of the internet when a lot of us here were coming of age and needed information or assistance. Seek out answers on your own, learn from your mistakes, buy loading manuals (plural). Spend time at the range trying out various loads appropriate to you needs and guns. Spend time reading and doing instead of coming to this site and asking others to give you the magic answer to your needs. Do for yourself. Don’t clutter up bandwidth with questions that you can answer with your own initiative or which have been answered multiple times in many, many previous posts on the forum. ...
I have a different opinion...

I love to read. I will gladly read any book I can get my hands on. But, sometimes you have to read 10 books to get to the one that has the information you need. That can get expensive nowadays. I do tend to hoard books of any age on the subjects of guns and hunting. The library doesn't tend to have those types of books.

It makes sense to ask someone a question on the internet! It's called networking. Why not learn from someone else's mistakes? Asking someone advice simply gives you a starting spot.

MY pet peeve is when somebody asks for real-world advice and get a bunch pooh-pooh naysayers giving chairborne opinions.

Let's stop making the same mistakes over and over again.
vancelw - What "making the same mistakes" are we making over and over again. Don't think I understood what you were implying there.

I have no problem with your having a different opinion. I realize everyone has and is entitled to their opinion, ...including Terry.
I too didn't have access to all the books I could find on the subject I felt I needed. However, I discovered that I could find folks, along with some books I could acquire, who could assist me with solving a problem I had or answer a question. I suppose I was blessed that I could find such people. I did, however seek out them out.

I find that I can certainly trust or distrust what knowledge folks provide me in a face to face situation rather than possibly trusting some anonymous person found on the internet. I like looking people in the eye when they offer advice. Even on this site, which is kind of a "home place" for me, I find differing opinions on just about any technical question one asks here. That said, I find that I have favorites here whose judgement and advice I can rely upon.
Last edited by GoatGuy on Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them." - Basuto proverb.
shooter
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by shooter »

I like Terry. He can be harsh at times and has run off more than one newbie on the forum with his terse remarks, but i find some of his posts humorous. He has a way with words and knows his stuff. I am not excusing his behavior, but I think he says what he says partially just to get a rise out of people. I mean, he popped in for 30 seconds to respond to an inquiry about his well being, and that's all the forum has been talking about since.

I think he could be easier on people. I agree that the way one gathers information has changed over time. Why search through countless books for the answer to one simple question when you can ask someone that knows? The internet, and this forum, have shortened the gap between us common folks and the people that know all the answers. Used to, the people that knew the answers wrote books, and the common folk had to read the books to gain knowledge on a subject. Now I can go straight to Taffin, Murbach, Jim Taylor, Paco, etc., and ask a pointed question. I think it's great! I still think people should do their homework before asking, and people should buy these guys' books, etc. to support them and show appreciation for their knowledge gained through trial and error over the years.

I have been blessed to share a firing line with some of the most respected names in our little niche of the shooting community. These guys are nice, polite, and are happy to impart their knowledge with a younger, less knowledgeable generation. I'm sure it gets frustrating to answer the same questions over and over again, but most of the time they do it or point you to where you can find it. That is an acceptable answer to me. Usually when I ask a question it is because I can't find the answer on my own, or I have a question about the material I have found. If one points out where I can find the answer that is perfectly fine with me. I find that you learn more when you find the answer for yourself, but that may just be me.

This went way longer than I intended, but it's my take on the subject. Should Terry be excused? I don't know, but it might be best to just ignore him if you don't care for what he says. Our moderators do a great job, and are very lenient, and I think fair, especially compared to other forums I've visited.
‎"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
GoatGuy
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by GoatGuy »

Udy wrote:... I have studied and read many of books on firearms and what not, but I might still ask a basic question on occasion, [b]does that make me lazy??[/b]
Hey, I'm as lazy as any person you know. However, I don't know you so can't answer that question. Depends, I suppose, on how you attempt to find solutions to other situations in your life.
"If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them." - Basuto proverb.
GoatGuy
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by GoatGuy »

shooter wrote:I like Terry. He can be harsh at times and has run off more than one newbie on the forum with his terse remarks, but i find some of his posts humorous. He has a way with words and knows his stuff. I am not excusing his behavior, but I think he says what he says partially just to get a rise out of people. I mean, he popped in for 30 seconds to respond to an inquiry about his well being, and that's all the forum has been talking about since.

I think he could be easier on people. I agree that the way one gathers information has changed over time. Why search through countless books for the answer to one simple question when you can ask someone that knows? The internet, and this forum, have shortened the gap between us common folks and the people that know all the answers. Used to, the people that knew the answers wrote books, and the common folk had to read the books to gain knowledge on a subject. Now I can go straight to Taffin, Murbach, Jim Taylor, Paco, etc., and ask a pointed question. I think it's great! I still think people should do their homework before asking, and people should buy these guys' books, etc. to support them and show appreciation for their knowledge gained through trial and error over the years.

I have been blessed to share a firing line with some of the most respected names in our little niche of the shooting community. These guys are nice, polite, and are happy to impart their knowledge with a younger, less knowledgeable generation. I'm sure it gets frustrating to answer the same questions over and over again, but most of the time they do it or point you to where you can find it. That is an acceptable answer to me. Usually when I ask a question it is because I can't find the answer on my own, or I have a question about the material I have found. If one points out where I can find the answer that is perfectly fine with me. I find that you learn more when you find the answer for yourself, but that may just be me.

This went way longer than I intended, but it's my take on the subject. Should Terry be excused? I don't know, but it might be best to just ignore him if you don't care for what he says. Our moderators do a great job, and are very lenient, and I think fair, especially compared to other forums I've visited.
Hey shooter, I like your style. Good show!
You know, if any of us could share a firing line with Terry I'm sure we would find him just as those in your 3rd paragraph. I would hope so.
"If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them." - Basuto proverb.
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vancelw
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by vancelw »

GoatGuy wrote:
vancelw - What "making the same mistakes" are we making over and over again. Don't think I understood what you were implying there.
I wasn't implying anything. Any inference is yours. I was pretty straight that I think it's asinine to call out someone for using the internet to acquire knowledge WHEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS DEVELOPED FOR. (no, AL Gore had nothing to do with it)

In fact, most of the books I've collected to use for reference were found via the internet. My world is very large now and I have traveled to countries and read books (and purchased firearms) that I never would have known about if I hadn't of been able to research it first.

Keep asking opinions and advice people! I learn almost every time someone does. Saves me from having to ask.
There's little excuse for rudeness. Some people don't realize people aren't always being rude when it seems they are.

A little note...if TERRY or someone else offends you click "Ignore". It works! Saves lots of reading that will only make you mad.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
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FWiedner
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by FWiedner »

vancelw wrote:(no, AL Gore had nothing to do with it)
He kinda did.

:wink:
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
GoatGuy
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by GoatGuy »

vancelw wrote:
GoatGuy wrote:
vancelw - What "making the same mistakes" are we making over and over again. Don't think I understood what you were implying there.
I wasn't implying anything. Any inference is yours. I was pretty straight that I think it's asinine to call out someone for using the internet to acquire knowledge WHEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS DEVELOPED FOR. (no, AL Gore had nothing to do with it)

In fact, most of the books I've collected to use for reference were found via the internet. My world is very large now and I have traveled to countries and read books (and purchased firearms) that I never would have known about if I hadn't of been able to research it first.

Keep asking opinions and advice people! I learn almost every time someone does. Saves me from having to ask.
There's little excuse for rudeness. Some people don't realize people aren't always being rude when it seems they are.

A little note...if TERRY or someone else offends you click "Ignore". It works! Saves lots of reading that will only make you mad.
Are we having an argument here?
I wasn't inferring or implying anything, merely asking to what that line was intended. I didn't understand it related to "that I think it's asinine to call out someone for using the internet to acquire knowledge", as nothing of that nature appeared in my original post. Perhaps you inferred that was what I meant, but I assure you that was not my intent. What I suggested was that asking questions for solutions, or other info regarding something very easily determined, can as well be done by one's own effort rather than merely asking them on our site. I think folks ultimately realize more personal gain by finding answers themselves rather than depending on others to do it for them.
Seeking answers and winnowing out any stuff answers from an internet search quite likely will be of great benefit. In fact, I do that quite often. The trick is in recognizing the stuff.
Oh, yeah. I agree one can click to ignore to eliminate anything which may cause anger or distress to an otherwise enjoyable period of time reading others posts and choosing to respond or not.
"If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them." - Basuto proverb.
92&94
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by 92&94 »

Well... Colin Powell once said that in his military career he learned to never stomp on enthusiasm.

That's what my mind goes back to whenever someone complains about people asking "dumb" questions. I can't say as I think there is much more to it than that.
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earlmck
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by earlmck »

GoatGuy wrote:
shooter wrote:I like Terry. He can be harsh at times and has run off more than one newbie on the forum with his terse remarks, but i find some of his posts humorous. He has a way with words and knows his stuff. I am not excusing his behavior, but I think he says what he says partially just to get a rise out of people. I mean, he popped in for 30 seconds to respond to an inquiry about his well being, and that's all the forum has been talking about since.

I think he could be easier on people. I agree that the way one gathers information has changed over time. Why search through countless books for the answer to one simple question when you can ask someone that knows? The internet, and this forum, have shortened the gap between us common folks and the people that know all the answers. Used to, the people that knew the answers wrote books, and the common folk had to read the books to gain knowledge on a subject. Now I can go straight to Taffin, Murbach, Jim Taylor, Paco, etc., and ask a pointed question. I think it's great! I still think people should do their homework before asking, and people should buy these guys' books, etc. to support them and show appreciation for their knowledge gained through trial and error over the years.

I have been blessed to share a firing line with some of the most respected names in our little niche of the shooting community. These guys are nice, polite, and are happy to impart their knowledge with a younger, less knowledgeable generation. I'm sure it gets frustrating to answer the same questions over and over again, but most of the time they do it or point you to where you can find it. That is an acceptable answer to me. Usually when I ask a question it is because I can't find the answer on my own, or I have a question about the material I have found. If one points out where I can find the answer that is perfectly fine with me. I find that you learn more when you find the answer for yourself, but that may just be me.

This went way longer than I intended, but it's my take on the subject. Should Terry be excused? I don't know, but it might be best to just ignore him if you don't care for what he says. Our moderators do a great job, and are very lenient, and I think fair, especially compared to other forums I've visited.
Hey shooter, I like your style. Good show!
You know, if any of us could share a firing line with Terry I'm sure we would find him just as those in your 3rd paragraph. I would hope so.
I was going to put my two cents in here but you two fellows have said it better than I could so I'm gonna' give you a "Plus1 and 1" . Terry makes a good post generally: I agree with some and learn from some and disagree slightly with some and frequently he tickles my funny bone, and every so often he makes me cringe a bit. But I'll dang sure miss him if he quits posting to Leverguns.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
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Mescalero
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Mescalero »

Earl,
My friends that make me cringe, I find are the ones that stay with me the longest.
We need to hear what we don't want to hear.............................................................. from friends.
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Streetstar
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Streetstar »

Mescalero wrote:Earl,
My friends that make me cringe, I find are the ones that stay with me the longest.
We need to hear what we don't want to hear.............................................................. from friends.
Oh mu goodness ! -- Did you say a mouthful there ! +1
----- Doug
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Buck Elliott
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Buck Elliott »

Those who look to the internet as a source of "knowledge" are doomed from the start... The best you'll ever get from the 'net is INFORMATION... Knowledge comes from what you do with that information..

Many of us older guys gathered our knowledge first-hand, piece by piece.. Maybe that is why we really Know the things we've learned.. There is No Way any of us can impart all the nuances of what we've learned, in a few short paragraphs on a discussion board -- or even in the pages of a book.. We know and understand that principle, though it seems lost on many of the "instant gratification" generation..

We tend to get a little cranky when we are met by those who haven't a clue as to how this sort of education should necessarily take place.. Some guys want to know how to pilot a starship, when they've never learned to ride a bicycle.. Remember, there ARE such things as "dumb questions.." Those are the ones that you should have answered for yourself, before undertaking to to ask (or demand) that someone else do your basic research for you - and then you get miffed when the "teacher" chides you for being intellectually lazy - which you have been... Take at least Some responsibility for your own ignorance of the subject at hand..

Although maybe not quite in Terry's league -sadly - I have often been chided for my own opinions and outspoken manner. I have watched the quality of exchange on the board deteriorate, little by little.. Too many extraneous topics have crept in, having nothing to do with the original direction and intent of the forum.. As a result, my interest has waned.. Much of what I find here more-properly belongs on Facebook..

Just my 2-bits worth, fellers...
Regards

Buck

Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
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vancelw
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by vancelw »

I agree. ...there's not nearly enough levergun information here anymore. If it was this way in the past, I never would have joined.

But the quickest way to seal the forum's demise is to call out every newbie for having a "dumb" question. Not everyone had the good fortune of growing up around firearms or leverguns. Some came to it late in life and need a starting spot. I see a lot of them post 10 or 20 times them never post again after it's been made plain to them that they are too stupid to use bandwidth on this site. I've seen people ask for help

If you don't want to interact with new people...simply don't. If you don't want new people on the forum...close it to new members. Because anyone who is not already here can't possibly have useful information, right.

Buck you say there is a difference between information and knowledge. Meh. Maybe. We can argue semantics all day.
But an earlier poster said that someone should use Google instead of asking their "dumb" question here and wasting all the good people's time. Have you Googled anything lately? There a lot of noise out there to wade though to get to the good stuff. Maybe Google (most likely) is how they found this site. And a site called "Leverguns" should be exactly the place that they can ask their question and trust that they are being guided correctly.

I've met over 3 dozen members of this forum FTF and shared a meal or coffee with half of those. Some have put me up for the night. I've had business transactions with so many I'm afraid to guess the number.Nary a hiccup with any of them.(bought a lot of leverguns off of members of this site) I would hope newbies could hope to have pleasant experiences on this forum as well. Most of them don't hang around long enough to.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Blaine »

:roll: How "old" do you have to be? I've been coon-fingering firearms for about 55 years. I know "a bit" about them. I'm not or ever was in the industry. I can't gunsmith worth a dang. All these braggarts that don't have the time for "dumb questions" are about as useful as tits on a boar hog. So.....do you have fifty years of experience, or just ONE year of experience that you've repeated fifty times?? :shock: :o :roll: Personally, I learn something every time I open this site up. Some one that thinks they know it all, in my book, is pretty da*n useless..... :evil:
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SJPrice
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by SJPrice »

This forum has changed quite a bit of late. As stated intermittently above, there are very few lever action discussions on here any more. Most of the threads are off topic and recently more and more of them are over "personal issues" It is starting to feel more like lever guns Facebook than Paco's Leverguns.com.

I understand I am not a "regular" here but I stop by for a while from time to time when life allows time for me to discuss and learn about one of my passions, lever action rifles and carbines. The past couple of visits show a clear change in direction here.
Always Drink Upstream From The Herd
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by cshold »

SJPrice wrote:This forum has changed quite a bit of late. As stated intermittently above, there are very few lever action discussions on here any more. Most of the threads are off topic and recently more and more of them are over "personal issues" It is starting to feel more like lever guns Facebook than Paco's Leverguns.com.

I understand I am not a "regular" here but I stop by for a while from time to time when life allows time for me to discuss and learn about one of my passions, lever action rifles and carbines. The past couple of visits show a clear change in direction here.
So what's your thoughts on a solution to what you feel
has become a problem with this forum?
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by firefuzz »

In my youth I was blessed, not with money....I got a quarter a week for push mowing a 2 acre yard, feeding the livestock, taking out the trash, etc...the things one does as a young man raised on a country acreage. I saved and bought a gun magazine every time I could, had to pick carefully to get the best bang from my buck. I still have most of them. I checked out every book our small library had on guns and military history and read as long every day as my Mom would let me.

Yes, I was blessed, mostly by a kindly gunshop owner and the roughest, wrong side of the tracks, pawn shop owner that would have eaten TERRY MURBACH for lunch and asked for desert. Every day I spent in town, several a week when Mom had to work, I was in their stores eyeballing the racks of guns ranging from new Remington's and Winchesters to beat up old military surplus, I loved them all.

I had been raised well enough not to bother them when they were busy, so they both tolerated and welcomed a young teenager who couldn't even buy their wares if he had had the money. Did I ask questions that seemed dumb or obvious to them....by the semi load I'm sure. But they took the time to answer and explain the answer to every one of them. Why did they bother....because they were smart enough to see the burning desire in a poor, young man's heart for knowledge about a subject they both loved....guns, and were smart enough to nourish it. At the age of 14 I saved up and my Dad bought my first purchased gun, a.444 Marlin from the gunshop, 4 years later I signed my first 4473 for a "customized '95 Mauser from that grumpy pawnbroker. And I bought several guns from each before they died, so they got a little return on their investment. Believe me I got the better end of that "transaction".

Later, as a young, married, small town cop with no money I was taken in by a couple of older gents that hung around the local gun/pawn shop in the evenings. I wanted one of everything, on a cop's salary, and did a lot of trading and fixing up old guns to trade with. These two men patiently guided me in these endeavors and didn't let me get beat up too badly making trades until I learned how. They too saw the "light" burning in me. They too, didn't think a question they had known the answer to for 35 years was dumb.

I morn the lost of all these men. And I owe them a debt to pass on everything I know to anyone that ask in the same manner that they taught me, with kindness and patience. To the best of my knowledge, and I pray it's true, I've never snuffed out the desire to learn about guns, shooting or anything else, in anyone with the desire to learn by being caustic, short-tempered, or condescending in dealing with them and their "dumb" questions.

I've had my share of TERRY MURBACH's too. The jerks that mouthed off, made fun of, or derided me because I was young or didn't know something they did. I never took the time to ask them a second question.

TERYY MURBACH and his kind can continue to run off new blood to our group of gun lovers. Me....I've still owe a very large debt to pay to Big Bob, Warren, Leon and Mr. Baptist, and several others, so I'll try and bring new ones in the in the same way they did me.

BTW Blaine, I agree with you.

Rob
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by madman4570 »

GoatGuy wrote:Now back to “Terry the Terror”. I believe what TERRY’s “rants”, as some would label his comments, are based on the concept of “do your own homework”. I COMPLETELY agree! That’s what I and most others here have had to do, since there wasn’t the crutch of the internet when a lot of us here were coming of age and needed information or assistance. Seek out answers on your own, learn from your mistakes, buy loading manuals (plural). Spend time at the range trying out various loads appropriate to you needs and guns. Spend time reading and doing instead of coming to this site and asking others to give you the magic answer to your needs. Do for yourself. Don’t clutter up bandwidth with questions that you can answer with your own initiative or which have been answered multiple times in many, many previous posts on the forum. I know Terry has posted that point of view in previous posts. And, oh brother, was he soundly chastised by many here who desperately want to “give him what for” for that opinion.
GoatGuy,

I know we have had some issues in the past. Where I stand is that has all been washed and we start anew.
However, reading this above I have to say at least to myself, that is absolute stuff. Here is why! Do not want to argue either.


Who is to say what question is a just do your homework and don't do your homework and ask on here.
You do believe that there are some questions that can be asked on here? Which ones, who decides ?

What to you might seem a stupid question or how Terry would view it a "Know Nothing" question how do you know to that person asking his question possibly #1 he is a busy person, he might have the time to go on here and get a fairly quick response but does not have the time to research multiple websites or reading of books etc.

The tough love, do it yourself not on here deal to me tends to sound like unless a member of the elite on here has some question from the upper atmosphere most questions on here are the " Know Nothings" Who says what is what and which person does which given that persons certain circumstances?

Now if someone has a mental comprehension issue and asks the same question on the same post showing some mental impairment then let one of the powers to be contact them via a pm and try to clear that up. How often does that happen though. Possibly Tourette Syndrome deal ??? Only typing instead of talking?

But, what you have just done with your post is for all the new members on here, or regular members put a view in their brain " is this a question that I dare ask or do I have to go elsewhere. If so might as well go to where someone will answer that question cause they actually wish to help.

There are Teachers like that. I have had them. They su##
Good morning class, read pages 42-70 now and tonight review chapter and tomorrow you will be tested. As they sit there doing crosswords ????

What one person asks to them might be a hard question? What one person asks to them maybe they have looked for an answer or they do not have two hours to research it. Heck, some people maybe they cannot even get to a shooting range once a month?

That actually is the exact opposite of what this site should be about.

If it gets to that, might as well call it "guns for Know It All's" or maybe just shut it down and all the Know It All's can hold each others hands and tell each other how smart they are and stupid others are.

Again, just my opinion, not trying to argue and if that upsets some of you guys please pray for me! :wink:
Last edited by madman4570 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
JB
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by JB »

[/quote]
As I understand, the “Shootists” is a brotherhood of honorable men, with strong and longstanding experience whose members are invited to join and aren’t extended such invitation in a frivolous manner. I wouldn’t dare to denigrate any member of the body of shooters who make up the group as I’m confidant such membership is an honor to all the folks making up this body.
[/quote]

I've never found where being any club/gang/or "brotherhood" really means spit about anyone's character. There's generally great folks as well as liars and jerks in every group, gun writers or not.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by rossim92 »

i love it here!.. this is a place where you can own any make or model and discuss it. I own a marlin, rossi and, a henry, and a few others. If I WANTED to talk about just one brand in particular, I would have join the forum just for that make. I love the diversity of topics. That my two cents worth. yea I look on the other forums just to see what happening, but for now I call this one " home!" :D If you don't agree what is said or happening, don't stir the fire, just mosey on down the road. Life too short to get your feathers ruffled. Sometimes people make smart remarks about my questions or opinions. It don't bother me none. I don't snore in your face at night. Don't worry be Happy. Hey Pitchy don't leave , we love you here.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by madman4570 »

My beef with above deal also is the thinking "because we did not have access to things such as internet which has immensely aided persons seeking knowledge on just about anything and review YouTube if anyone cares to argue that one, you persons should go the old route of suffer which I did.??

Yep, we walked to school 5 miles in 2 foot deep snow but just because I did and that 4X4 SUV sits out there for you-- walk! :roll:

My vote on the Lazy,Know Nothing concept until shown different, Terry gets a Thumbs Down! GoatGuy on that one part of your viewpoint sorry my man ---same!
bdhold

Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by bdhold »

Buck Elliott wrote:Those who look to the internet as a source of "knowledge" are doomed from the start... The best you'll ever get from the 'net is INFORMATION... Knowledge comes from what you do with that information..
not to offend - what you mostly get on the internet is opinion. If you can glean knowledge or even information from it, you're cleaning up

Again, not to offend, but when any one person becomes the topic of discussion, the discussion is out of line.
This is a leverguns board. Terry is a levergunner with the right to post his opinion here just like everybody else.
His opinion about leverguns, not about other people.
If you don't want to read what he posts, go to your User Control Panel, Friends and Foes, Manage Foes and add his name there.
You will not have to see his posts with opinions again, though you will still have the option to click and read them.
Feel free to do the same with me - it don't skin my teeth.

you should see the wheel and tire discussions on the bicycle board - inertia makes heavy wheels and tires an advantage for climbing hills.
but wait, the lower inertia makes lighter wheels and tires an advantage for climbing hills. It's as bad as "the news" anymore.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by SteveR »

GoatGuy wrote: Finally, to suggest that Terry must be barely tolerated and suffered with by his “brother” Shootists is hardly the case, I would think. As I understand, the “Shootists” is a brotherhood of honorable men, with strong and longstanding experience whose members are invited to join and aren’t extended such invitation in a frivolous manner. I wouldn’t dare to denigrate any member of the body of shooters who make up the group as I’m confidant such membership is an honor to all the folks making up this body.

John Jeffers
I like how you tried to interpret what I said, I never said what you implied. Plus I really don't have to explain sarcasm anyway, mostly lost on some people.

Steve
bdhold

Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by bdhold »

sarcasm is always lost on the internet.
All Christians should note sarcasm is something Jesus never ever used
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by SteveR »

bulldog1935 wrote:sarcasm is always lost on the internet.
All Christians should note sarcasm is something Jesus never ever used
Seriously?

Steve
bdhold

Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by bdhold »

Selah.

Also, never use sarcasm on anyone you care about whom you want to remain your friend.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by 6pt-sika »

I wish the guy no ill will . But to be totally honest I don't care for him or his writing style . In person "he might" be a decent guy , but from what I've read of his writing on this forum you can't prove it by me .
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by FWiedner »

When Mr. Murbach shares his knowledge on the subject of firearms, I pay attention.

When he's being cranky or I disasgree with whatever he's 'on' about, I tune it out.

Being a 'Free Man', I have the option to entertain his conversation or not.

Just like a radio station or TV channel.

Click...

:wink:
:lol:
bulldog1935 wrote:not to offend - what you mostly get on the internet is opinion. If you can glean knowledge or even information from it, you're cleaning up
The skill involved is being able to recognize the difference.

:wink:
bulldog1935 wrote:sarcasm is always lost on the internet.
All Christians should note sarcasm is something Jesus never ever used

He might not have used deodorant either.

Should modern "Christians" give that up?

:lol:
Last edited by FWiedner on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by FWiedner »

x
Last edited by FWiedner on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by FWiedner »

x
Last edited by FWiedner on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by piller »

Terry reminds me of some of the people I grew up around. They expected the kids and the newcomers to be quiet until they had observed enough to learn the answers to a lot of questions, and to determine if they should voice an opinion. Usually, you started asking the questions when alone with one of the older men. This seems to be the sort of culture in which Terry grew up. I see that he is very knowledgeable, but, like many whom I grew up with, he is not comfortable with teaching a group. He is who he is, and we are not going to force him to change to fit what we want.

I like what Firefuzz had to say, and it sure seems as if the people who taught him were much like Terry. He was taught one on one, he was taught because he had been around and had proven to them that he could be quiet and listen, and he passed their tests of character. Rob, if you are ever in the Dallas area, let me know in a pm here, and I will buy you a cup of coffee.

To me, this all comes down to a personality and a culture dispute. Heck, Buck Elliott can be somewhat short with us sometimes, but he has taught me more than he realizes. He also gave me a tip on a powder to try for one of my favorite calibers. I searched and couldn't find any recipes for it with that caliber. I did a lot of comparing the recipes for it in all the calibers I could find it listed for, and then made a few guesses based on case volume it occupied in the other calibers and then filled my case to the approximate volume with it. That was the basis for how much powder to measure, and the changes were made in .3 grain increments until the velocity reached factory. I still have my fingers and my gun, and the velocity with my chronograph is about the same as with factory loads in my pistol and the standard deviation is less. The funny thing is that the barrel does not heat up as much as it does with WW296 or L'il Gun, and it is better in the pistol than IMR 4227. This riff here is to say that some of the people who know more than you do may already know that you feel a sense of accomplishment and you learn when you do it yourself. I am scared enough of lawyers that I will not give out that recipe, but I have sent it in to the company who manufactures the powder and they are considering testing it to see if they want to publish it.

Remember, Hugh Glass wanted to kill Jim Bridger for leaving him to die after the bear tore him up. Even after this situation, Bridger still became one of the best known Mountain Men and he was known to be gruff. No one is perfect, and it may be that the gruffness is learned.

The only ones who get to decide what is acceptable or not on this forum are Paco, Hobie, and the others who help to moderate this site.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by mikld »

After reading goat's long self promoting post (no offence intended), telling us his history, I can find no reason not to believe him. He stated facts clearly and accurately. I've only been here a few years and have never seen/read a post by Mr. Murbach that was informative in any way. There are two ways to impart information and answer a post. The first is obvious; give facts. The other way is Mr. Murbach's way; to insult and belittle the questioner, tell how great it was at Leverguns before so many of the unwashed crowd stumbled on his hallowed ground, and then, it he has any breath left, drop a few crumbs of info. Most replies by Mr. Murbach have no usable info attached, just insults, and a lot of whining about the "way it was". An educated donkey's rear, with tons of information and experience is still and donkey's rear...

I started reloading pre-web, all my info came from books. I couldn't go whining to a "guru" or webpage for information and had to research every method/problem/process by myself (although I did ask a question here about bore size in my levergun). All that and a dollar will get me a cup of coffee, and it doesn't give me the right to insult someone's questions and belittle them for asking a question that is below me and my vast experience/knowledge.

Depending on your point of view, it is unfortunate/fortunate this is the age of instant information. Schools teach computer use to find information in nanoseconds rather than paging through books, so we cannot consider those that ask questions "at fault", it's just today's way of life. Those that cannot deal with this should go back to 1939 and pull the rug over their head and decay quietly.

I think Mr. Murbach is getting way too much attention by these "loving the old curmudgeon" posts and we should let sleeping dogs lie...
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Griff »

Hmmm...

Mea Culpa. Terry is right, as usual, sorta. :P I've posted OT threads. I've contributed to Birthday & Prayer request topics, among others. I don't know much about guns or reloading; but, sometimes someone asks the "right" question, and hopefully, I don't sound too stupid with my answer.

My take is this: our "town" is larger, thanks to the internet. We need no longer rely on only access to one gun shop & one pawn shop for our questions and education. However knowledgeable & accurate their information may be... sometimes it's good to have MORE feedback.

Phrasing and composition are difficult concepts. It's hard for most of us to phrase our questions and answers in such a way as to impart the entire question or answer so that EVERY reader will fully understand. IIMO, that is an impossibility, so why try?

Like some of you, I am a voracious reader, of both fiction and non-fiction. This is a good thing. Sometimes! But it often leaves me with a smidgen of knowledge. And no clear recollection of its source. What do I do when I need to rely on that tidbit? If the outcome is inconsequential, Im likely to run with it; but, if the outcome is important, I want to verify my info. I.e.: what design fearures of the 1895 Winchester enable it to withstand the pressures of the .30-06 vs. the mdl 18994?

That's probably a harder question to get answered on a general gun forum than say... "...when diid Chevy go from full-width front bumpers on the Camaro to a split bumper? And, although, I'll gamble that I'd get both correct answers here, both questions have documented answers elsewhere on the 'web! Therein lies the problem. The answer? I don't have one; but rather, many.

The one I'll share is also my New Year's Resolution: to neither start nor respond to off-topic posts. (Starting right after this post. :twisted: )

PS: Excepting of course, birthday wishes and prayer requests... I'm sure Terry will allow that those fall within the general heading of "neighborliness and support of our levergun comrades." And if not, "se la vie."
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by madman4570 »

Griff,

When you say you will not start an off topic post, are you saying no post besides Leverguns ?
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Streetstar »

Griff wrote:Hmmm...

.. "...when diid Chevy go from full-width front bumpers on the Camaro to a split bumper? And, although, I'll gamble that I'd get both correct answers here, both questions have documented answers elsewhere on the 'web! "
Trick question -- split bumper was an option on the RS package Camaro's from 1970 - 1973 , but -- full width bumpers still remained for non RS package cars
----- Doug
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Streetstar
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Streetstar »

bulldog1935 wrote:
you should see the wheel and tire discussions on the bicycle board - inertia makes heavy wheels and tires an advantage for climbing hills.
but wait, the lower inertia makes lighter wheels and tires an advantage for climbing hills. It's as bad as "the news" anymore.
Oh boy ----- now you've gone and done it ! :lol: (but the most correct answer for climbing is that lighter is always better)
----- Doug
bdhold

Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by bdhold »

I was on your side - can't stop the other guys from using inertia in their favor - there's something about inertia.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Old Savage »

I suppose that every so often it should noted that Paco is the arbiter of subjects and the question scope.



Forum rules

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.




It would thus seem that any individual who would usurp is a pretender in that arena.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Nath »

Good post John and good reply Buck.

I had Terry call me an ESSOBEE once! I have also once when I squared up to him, had him privately apollogise to me.
Now I don't know but there could just be a slight chance the guy is on medication and it could be making him cranky, it has happened to me! As I say I don't really know in this case.

I do get where he is coming from though all be it I may wince sometimes! I have also had to learn for my self often with costly mistakes!

I for one miss his regular contributions and paradoxically get upset when someone leaves due to a comment of his!

Nath.
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by GoatGuy »

Hey guys, I’m nothing more than a really old phart living alone on my little goat farm in the Ozark wonderfulness of Northwest Arkansas. Not a know-it-all, crank or crazy so-and-so. Therefore, I offer an apology to all you folks who either misunderstood my initial long rambling post, and/or felt I was “self promoting” by including my background. My intent was to establish my bono fides, or lack thereof, to lend credence only to my opinion of the do it yourself model of gaining information leading to some level of knowledge. As Buck Elliot noted, “Those who look to the internet as a source of "knowledge" are doomed from the start... The best you'll ever get from the 'net is INFORMATION... Knowledge comes from what you do with that information.” A cogent point of view, in my opinion. Thanks Buck.

Those of you who found my initial post self serving, or a put down of others’ opinion, either haven’t read any of my other posts on this site or have a short memory span. I’m not a member here to cherry pick topics in order to snag an opportunity to put down or chastise others for what they wish to express.

My post count doesn’t reflect my years as a member of leverguns.com. I’m am a member here not to comment on every post and thereby build up a humongus post count. I also rarely post a topic, often because I’m intimidated with posting photos and feel somewhat insecure being so limited. Being tech challenged (just ask Pitchy), including photos is a major challenge. When Pitchy and Norma stayed with me recently, he helped me along to post my donkey and saddle/gun pics. Those, and my “faces” post, I believe, are my only ones which include photos. I hate to admit my insecurity about that, or anything else to you folks, but there it is.

My last thought on this topic. Each of us has some opinion on most everything that comes our way, … myself included. I was merely attempting to express my opinion of a present topic, with no overt expression of ignorance of others with a differing opinion. I sincerely hope all here understand that. And, finally, my thanks to Paco and all the rest here for the opportunity to be a member of this collection of generally good and decent folks.
"If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them." - Basuto proverb.
airedaleman
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by airedaleman »

All of this is remarkably entertaining...
Riamh Nar Dhruid O Spairn Lann
- motto on the Irish Regiments' flags
foxtrapper
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:45 am
Location: Long Island N.Y.

Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by foxtrapper »

It's old guyitis! Cranky cantankerous it's all the same. Folks feeling the effects of life, realizing things ain't what they used to be, " in my day" mind set. Also i think its a problem of access. Being able to become personal with the "experts" It's always a crapshoot to meet one of the people(on forums etc.) you admire for their work. Maybe able to write a great article on a subject but turn out to be someone you would never share a campfire with.Still for the life of me i cant figure out why someone would lambast someone who would ask a question...... And supposedly we are on the same side!
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Blaine
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Re: Another vote for TERRY

Post by Blaine »

(Gosh, I really love this place, and it's discussions)
So, I can tell which topics are about Lever Guns, and which ones are not. Why would the purists even bother to open an off topic thread? Furthermore, why are the purists not posting about leverguns on a daily basis? I guess I have a high post count, but, it's because I would rather be here than anyplace else, not because I'm trying to "boost my count" :roll: Let's not poison the well for those that enjoy it here. Perhaps, if (mostly) cheerful gabbing bothers you, a library seat, in the gun section, is the better place?
If Paco/Hobie change the rules, and this reverts to a Grand Wizard Mutual Admiration Society I'll be happy to never be heard from again, and just sit in the background and soak in all that knowledge....wait, this is the internet...all I can get here is information 8)
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

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