Need HELP ! Sizing - final analysis

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:20 pm

I don't know if U can tell anything by the pics but I thot it worth a try. I got My Lee 4/20 bottom pour pot the other day and set out to give it a try. Also new was the Lee 379 mold. After getting things prepped I began to cast. Things didn't go so well at first but after a while it was working like magic. Had the lead too hot at first, turned the dial down and let it cool a bit. I didn't have to use a stick to get the sprue open, it opens very easy with a gloved hand and the bullets dump out with ease (no beating the mold with the stick), too much You Tube makes Ya think U caint cast boolits without Ur trusty stick. I found out different. After I got done for the afternoon I had Cast 800 bullets.
On to My dilemma, these are dropping close to the mold size but I want to size and lube them for My 38-55. I have a 377 sizing die for My Lyman sizer that I had tried to size some 383s that I have with no luck. Hence the reason for ordering the 379 mold. I am experiencing the same results with these bullets. I am casting with Wheel Weight lead and lubing with 50-50 wax and Vaseline. The bullets are very hard to get through the die and seem to be off center as only one side looks like it is getting sized. It completely wipes out the crimp groove on one side. It is very hard to pull the handle back up on the sizer.
I'm thinking one of 2 things is happening, either I got a Bad Die or this old Lyman sizer is worn out and pushing off center. I don't have much Hair and if I mess with this thing any more I won't have any.

I don't want to spend the cost for a new sizer and used ones o E-bay are too much to take the chance of them being the same as Mine.
I am thinking of going with a Lee sizer but I don't want to tumble lube (what are Ur thoughts on that) I like the looks of lube in the grooves. Anyhow I took a couple pics of the bullets that I tried to size, I hope U can see what is happening. This is My first time ever Casting bullets much less sizing them. I am hoping some more seasoned Casters can recognize My problem and help get it ironed out. Thx in advance for any help.
Perry

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:31 pm

It looks like your nose punch is not centered in the die. Try leaving the set screw loose and just gluing the nose punch in place with a little dab of bullet lube to allow it to float and center itself.
That is one way I have cured that problem when I had it happen on my RCBS lubri-sizer.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:36 pm

Thx Chuck, I'll give that a try. I'm not even sure it is the right punch for that bullet. I bought the top punch for the 383s but they are close in design.
Perry

J35 · Post by **J35** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:42 pm

pwl44m wrote:Thx Chuck, I'll give that a try. I'm not even sure it is the right punch for that bullet. I bought the top punch for the 383s but they are close in design.
Perry

Most any flat nose punch would work for that bullet.

You can also file a slot where the set screw contact's the punch and get your float by not tightening the set screw all the way, this is how i do all mine.

If it were me, I would use the Lee die for sizing and Lap the lube sizer die out so no sizing is done with it. Generally .001 over is good and just use it for putting lube in the grooves, and you will get a more harmonious out come.

----J

Hawkeye2 · Post by **Hawkeye2** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:36 am

You don't have to tumble lube with the Lee sizer setup. You can dip the bullets in molten lube or stand them up, pour lube in the pan up over the grease groves, cut them out with a modified case and then run them through the Lee sizer. It works real good and the Lee sizers are cheap.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:11 am

First thing I am going to check is to see how much play that top punch has before tightening and try to see if there is any runout. The first 2 suggestions seem logical to Me. I didn't have as much trouble pushing the 383 bullets thru the Die as I do with the 379s. If the Lubrasizer isn't completely worn out there has to be a solution.
@ Hawkeye, I was trying to avoid Pan Lubing but it looks like a viable option. Lord knows I have watched enough You-tubes on the subject. Which leads Me to the subject "what formula do You all use for Home Made Lube" ?
Perry

Marvin S · Post by **Marvin S** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:56 am

A good pan lube is bees wax/vasoline andna touch of parrafin. It makes a SPG copy. I dont know the ratios at the moment but a google search should find it.
Is there excess play in the ram of your lubri sizer?

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:08 pm

Marvin S wrote:A good pan lube is bees wax/vasoline andna touch of parrafin. It makes a SPG copy. I dont know the ratios at the moment but a google search should find it.
Is there excess play in the ram of your lubri sizer?

That is the lube I made without the STP which was an ingredient. When it warms up I am going out to mess with it some more (it is 40degrees out)

Perry

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:21 pm

Have you measured the bullets yet? Can't guess at a solution if all the facts aren't in. I don't use a lubersizer, I pan lube and tumble lube (45-45-10) and size with a Lee push through set up. No, I don't use alox for sizing, I use the same stuff I use for sizing cases; Mink Oil Boot Dressing. I have about 8 Lee sizers and cast in 4 calibers, and pan lube most of my Magnum and rifle bullets, and with a lubed bullet, no sizing lube is needed.

FWIW; have you checked your methods with the lubersizer? Mebbe the bullet is started crooked or gunk in the nose punch is pushing the bullet crooked...

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:23 pm

Pete,
Your talking in a way I don't understand fully.

Let's start here:

1.) Get a quality micrometer.

2.) Slug the bore of your rifle. What is your groove diameter of the rifle you are using?

3.) what is the size of the bullets as they come out of the mould?

4.) What is your intended velocity?

Forget the money part. Your not going to make a Porsche run on 87 octane. If you leave out one crucial part in casting and loading cast bullets, you have j-u-n-k. It may work sometimes with short range pistol ammunition, but a 38-55 can be very finicky when small details are scrimped on.

Those bullets with the side flattened out will be so out of balance, you will be lucky to hit a washtub at 20 yards.

Answer questions 2-4 and we will take it from there.----6

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:38 pm

What Sixgun says-- from your pics it looks like that bullet has to be getting sqozed more than just .002". And the advice on that nose punch is right on. I'm with J35nut -- I try not to have a nose punch that is even close to a "fit", but generally use smooth flat ones. If a round nose I may use an overgenerous sized round punch if I have one, but mostly use flat punch on them also.

I think you are discovering why some of us fellers size to the largest size the case and our chamber will allow us to use and let the rest of the sizing occur in the barrel.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:46 pm

OK loong day, I will try to bring U up to speed. Checked out the Lyman sizer first, the top punch fits pretty good- no slop. I messed with the sizer quite a bit before deciding that wasn't the problem. I then turned My attention to the bullet. They measured 379 in places and as low as 365 in others ! What appeared to be happening was that the locating pins for the mold had slipped and the mold was way off kilter. I tried to get the pins where I thought they should be and tried some more casting. The bullets are throwing right at 379 now but I'm not happy. The pins fell out a couple times (I have read a negative comment about Lee molds doing this). Could be all The problem. After I got what appeared to be decent bullets I tried sizing a few. Much better but not perfect like they should be.
I'm thinking the mold is toast as I messed up something else on it also. Good thing it was only 20 bucks- cheap lesson. There are a lot of good things said about Lee molds but I think they are very delicate. I may not have prepped it good enough (lubed it good enough) as one side of the mold was galded where the pin enters the other side. Is lubing an ongoing process while casting ? It appears that the lube burns off after a while. Now whether to use My new found knowledge and order another one or go with a Steel mold. I like the latter idea.
Ok 6 ! Big problem trying to slug that bore. I used one of My 377 sized and lubed bullets . It started Verry verry hard. Not sure if it should be that tight. I pulled it back out and it looks like the bore is way undersized. I decided to go ahead a drive it through and got a nice ring of shaved lead at the muzzle. It was very tight all the way through and when measured it came out to around 365. This is the Win 94 that I sent to JES rebore. The barrel is a very Hefty Octagonal barrel from Numrich arms. A note with the Gun when I got it back said that it seemed to shoot Ok and to use 376 jacketed bullets and 377 cast. Now I'm wondering if it was actually bored for 38-55 or some other caliber, I know He is big on 35 caliber ( could this have happened ?) I will call Him Monday and relay this info.
So I still caint shoot this Gun.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:01 pm

Agree with what 6-Gun posted.

Something else to think ‘bout.

--Today’s wheel weights (WW) are not the same alloy/composition as when a number of us started casting. I gave up on WW 20+years ago due to to the unknown nature of the material itself and the hardness of the resulting bullet. I found the WW bullets were hard and difficult to size. Gave up and went to 1:30 and 1:20 alloy (tin to lead) and now only cast for and load for Black Powder and paper patch bullets.

The hardness of the WW could also be why the bullet is difficult to size. And, this could cause the nose diameter of the bullet to “bump up”, that is enlarge, which might lead to loading problems.

A good lead thermometer is also necessary to keep an eye on the temperature of the melt as well as how the lead pots internal temperature controls functions (or isn't).

In an earlier thread on casting, you stated that you were new to casting. In this thread, you said that you cast 800 bullets in an afternoon. Now that is a great deal of casting. What did you use a measure of quality control? If you have an electronic scale or can borrow one, weight your bullets. Bullet weight and as-cast bullet diameter (that is pre-sizing diameter) are a good way to determine just how well your casting technique is working. Also a good visual inspection of the bullet base and grease grooves will tell a great deal too.

Again, heed 6-Gun’s advice.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:25 pm

earlmck wrote:What Sixgun says-- from your pics it looks like that bullet has to be getting sqozed more than just .002". And the advice on that nose punch is right on. I'm with J35nut -- I try not to have a nose punch that is even close to a "fit", but generally use smooth flat ones. If a round nose I may use an overgenerous sized round punch if I have one, but mostly use flat punch on them also.

I think you are discovering why some of us fellers size to the largest size the case and our chamber will allow us to use and let the rest of the sizing occur in the barrel.

I'm with Earl & 6Gun. Make sure you have the proper nose punch for the bullet. I also use a wide flat nose punch on my WFN and some other wide flat nose pistol bullets... but not for any bullet intended for a rifle.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:16 am

The top punch is a #449 for lyman 379 rnfp.
@ Ray Newman, I was on a roll and the bullets were dropping like flys. They looked good to the naked eye so I kept going. I had no idea that I had cast so many until I counted. Now they will all have to be melted back down because I don't think I can sort through and find the better ones. I don't know when the mold went south but it did and that is that. I have an electronic scale and both Dial and Digital calipers. WW alloy and Pure Lead plus a couple buckets of type material is all I have for casting. I want to use Smokeless powder. As for casting technique, it aint workin too good. It's not like Drano- "just pour it in and it works !" I have to start somewhere and this is it.
Perry

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:53 am

Perry,
Since your rifle has a .365" bore and the bullets are larger than that, I would suggest pan lubing then remove the ejector pin in your lubrisizer die, and back off the ejector rod to its lowest position and then push the bullets through nose first. That will size them evenly all the way around.

Also, once you have some bullets evenly sized, you could place one of them back into the die nose up with the ejector pin reinstalled then get an oversized top punch and put some epoxy into the depression. Coat the nose of the bullet with a little grease then bring the top punch down to meet the bullet. After the epoxy sets, the top punch is now lined up precisely with the die.

Mark the top punch with a line facing you so that when you place it back in the lubrisizer it will line line up aok.

I have an RCBS lubrisizer in which the hole in the ram does not line up with the sizing die and that is what I have done to remedy the situation.

I also use flat top punches on shorter fatter bullets like 158/357; 200-240 / 44; 250-300 / 45. With longer bullets that does not work as well.

OR

If a bullet as cast and seated in a case will chamber ok in your rifle, then just pan lube them and shoot them at the as cast diameter. The beginning of the trip down the bore will size them down evenly and nicely and with no extra work involved.

Good luck,
w30wcf

Marvin S · Post by **Marvin S** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:24 am

Something is way off with that gun if it's supposed to be a 38-55. Groove should be 379-380. You could do a half decent chamber cast with paraffin wax. You should only be sizing the bullets about 002 thou.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:53 pm

I agree with Marvin S. I think you have a .35 caliber bore.
I size to .381 for my Marlin .38-55. I pan lube with SPG and size them in a home made push through bushing type sizer die.

I would find some round ball or egg sinkers and slug that bore again.
A chamber cast will tell you if the chamber will accept a round loaded with the proper diameter bullet or not. You may own a wildcat caliber rifle.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:06 pm

The Gun will chamber an empty case albeit the last 3/4 inch is tight and hard to close the Bolt, then it extracts fine and easy to rechamber. I will try a loaded dummy round to see if it will chamber. Must call Jes tomorrow.
Chuck !, are U the one that had Jes do rebore or was that Tycer ? I would like to know how deep the grooves are. These are barely noticeable, like it wasn't quite finished.
Perry

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:55 pm

Chuck100yd mentioned a shop fabricated push-through sizer. Lee offers such a kit that works very well. Back when I loaded grease groove bullets, I pan lube the bullets, then sized them with the lee push-through sizing kit. It works very well, custom sizes are available, and for US$25.00, the price is right.
http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/ ... izing-kit/

I think it would be advisable as another poster mentioned to do a chamber cast. That way you will know the chamber dimensions as well as the bore and groove diameter.

Per the Buffalo Arms catalogue, “modern” .38-55 chambers differ from the original Marlin/Winchester chambers, and as a result Starline offers two different lengths .38-55 brass-- 2.125” and 2.080”.

See:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/38_55_Winche ... x?CAT=3837
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Starline_Bra ... x?CAT=3837

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:27 pm

You said bore diameter is .376. I have a Win. made 1905 with a .376 bore. I find if I am sizing bullets from .381 to .376, it is hard to make them shoot. My rifle shoots jacketed .375 220 gr. Hornady flat points well (3" at 100yd.). Those bullets sized from .381 to .376 shoot 5" at 100 yds.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:53 pm

Hold it right there!!!!! We need to start all over.

BIG PROBLEM. Did I read your post right? .365??????? There's only two answers.

1). Did you buy a Walmart micrometer? Not being sarcastic. Test your micrometer on a Sierra Matchking bullet or another match bullet.........no standard hunting bullet......Match......

2) NEVER use anything other than pure lead in a round ball shape to slug your bore. Doing otherwise will likely damage the rifling because your going to have to pound like hell.

Get a round ball bigger than .380 diameter. If you don't have one, get a piece of thin aluminum or copper tubing that's a little bigger than say.....380, but not much more than .450. Pour hot PURE lead down there and use common sense to keep it coming out the bottom. Get a hacksaw and cut off a piece about 3/8" .........peel off the tube or get it out some how............grease up the lead "shank"...........rest it on the muzzle and pound it in with a brass punch that's smaller than bore.............after starting it with the brass punch, use a wooden dowel or a flat faced cleaning rod to knock it down the rest of the way......should be easy after starting it down the muzzle.

(2) Measure it with your proven micrometer and be sure to measure on the highest part of the slug.....both sides.... If it still measures .365, I would drive over to the guys house who did the work and kick that sucker real hard right in the nuts because he put you at serious danger.

I personally think you have a micrometer issue because the only cartridge that measures .365 are a few oddball German cartridges. Even a rifle chambered for a 35 cal. cartridge should not measure more than 358-359.

The mould has alignment issues??? I have several Lee moulds in the 6 cavity persuasion and these moulds have dropped several thousand bullets and are still tight. You have a lemon.

You need to throw the mould away and buy a quality mould.

Pete....once again, not being sarcastic but we need to get you started from scratch. Slug the bore with some soft lead and report back.----6

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:50 pm

OK heres the scoop from JES Rebore. He says U cant slug His bores because of the way they are rifled. Says 377 cast is the max I should shoot. I told Him about a 377 bullet being very hard to drive through the bore and He said it would be. He indicated that I cant even slug it with a round ball. Now I know some on here have had JES rebore Their 30-30s, did U slug the bores before loading. He said shoot it and I would be Happy. What say Ye ? The verdict is out for now.
On to My measuring devices. My digital Caliper, My dial Caliper and My small Machinists Micrometer all measure a sized 377 bullet at 377. I don't have a match bullet but what I do have is a 358 sizing die and it's return punch measures 356 on all 3 devices. That's the best I can do to proof My instruments. The slug that I drove through the bore also measured 365 on the Micrometer.
My 379/250 bullet mold is toast and now I am wondering if I should get a smaller mold. No because I still want a 94 original 38-55. On another note, this Lee mold is of the new design with alignment pins rather than the V slots. I wonder why they thought the pins were better.
So that is where We are at right now.
Perry

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:38 pm

Perry, your trials and tribulations with these .375 bullets makes for an interesting and perplexing topic. Thanks!

I do have some vague recollections of once trying to measure the bore size for a friend who had rifling where there was a large land always opposite a smaller groove and it was a challenge. From your pictures I don't get the idea that the JES rifling is that way, though. But maybe I'm not seeing it right.

Anyway, JES' suggestion of "shoot it and you'll like it" sounds like a plan to me. Do you have any bullets in hand of .375 to .377 persuasion that don't look too bad that you could use to make up some loads? I think you'd get a good indication that the rifle was OK if you could just make some normal sort of loads and found that they would chamber OK. Then go ahead and fire them and see what you've got.

Cast bullet making is a little bit of an art, but it shouldn't be as much of a challenge as this particular bullet is giving you.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:56 pm

On a whim, I looked on the JES Rebore site and found that for the .375" bore, the dimensions are: .366" Bore; .376" groove. So your measurements agree with what he advertises. See: http://35caliber.com/2.html

I still have the "annoying hunch” that your wheel weight (ww) alloy is too hard and that is leading to the sizing problem(s). Do you know of anyone with a lead hardness tester to determine just how hard/soft your WW ally actually is?

As for a mould, I never had good luck with Lee aluminum moulds. I know some casters who have good results, but I was not among those lucky few. Based upon my experience, a steel Lyman, RCBS, or Redding/SAECO mould along with the proper top punch will serve you better.

Or, you could order some sized and lubed bullets from say Buffalo Arms, in different weights and sizes to try in your rifle. Then order a mould after you find one that you are satisfied with.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:45 pm

Trials and Tribulations is a good description of what I'm going through Earl but I shall prevail. I hope Someone else can gain something from this also. I know at least one other person is having trouble sizing some bullets.
Ray that makes sense there. I don't have a Hardness tester and You could be right on that being My problem sizing. Even though I am using wheel weight alloy I threw in whatever stick on weights were in the bunch also. I have some pure lead, I will try to cast a few bullets and see how they size.
Stay tuned - Perry

Marvin S · Post by **Marvin S** » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:36 pm

Your probalby going to have to look at Accurate molds to get one that small. He will make what ever size you want like 378. I can hardly buy that you cant slug his bores with either a soft round ball or egg sinker. Take a 375 pistol ball and slightly bump it up with a hammer or a 390 rifle ball, lube it and I would think it would go easy enough. But I have never seen one either.

rbertalotto · Post by **rbertalotto** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:53 am

OK, great thread!

I have 11 38-55 rifles at the moment. Other than the three JES rebores, the bores and lands are all over the place!

My Lyman "Mini Sharps" needs a .380 bullet, my Uberti High-Wall and Winchester 1894 (mirkou) use a .376 bullet and all the JES barrels and a few vintage 1893 Marlins and 1894 Winchesters shoot a .377 bullet.

I use a few different molds, but my "go-to" mold for all but the Mini Sharps is the Lee 379-250-RF using 20-1 Alloy. This mold drops a beautiful .379 bullet of 255 grains. I then size and lube on a Star lubrisizer using either a .376 or a .377 sizing die. These I load over 9g of Unique with Starline Brass (very thin wall) and all of these rifles are tack drivers out to 200 yds.

For the Mini Sharps I needed to have a custom brass mold made by Accurate Mold Company, (38-250D)

I have two Lyman molds, 375-248 and 375-449 but they both drop .375 bullets that prove too small in anything except a TC Contender barrel in 375 Winchester.

For longer distance, over 200 yds I have a Lyman 378-674 mold that drops a .378 bullet at 335 grains. But this only works in my fast twist barrels ....1894 Winchester/Mirkou....and Uberti High Wall. In these two rifles this bullet is "stupid" accurate! Great BC for a lead projectile.

So, back to your issue. Before I bought the Star sizer, I used a Lyman and I saw the problem you are having many times. It was always the top punch alignment issue. The Star pushes the bullet through from the base and does not use a top punch. (The star is easily one of the best pieces of reloading equipment I've ever bought in over 40 years of reloading!)

The 38-55 can be a real challenge. Especially if you have a proud bore and a tight chamber. In this case you can't chamber the loaded round as it is too large in diameter. You would need to ream the chamber with a custom ground reamer. Fortunately, Jes' reamer from JES has not shown this to be an issue as of yet. His bores and chambers are simply amazing....especially for the $225 price and less than two week turn around time!

As far as trying to measure a JES bore, I've done it on all my rifles. It's not easy because I always order the Three groove option (I like big lands and grooves...in my mind they will last longer and really imprint the bullet). With three grooves and lands, a land is always opposite the groove. I drive a soft bullet through the bore, then wrap the bullet in very thin stainless steel shim stock, measure diameter and deduct two times the thickness of the shim stock..........Works for me!

Hope all this helps..................Happy New Year!

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:11 pm

Well Happy New Year Gents & Ladies. Yesterday was productive, got to shoot My new AR-308 and My new Glock 40 s&w. (Ha ! spell check says I spelled Glock wrong) what do they know.
After a pretty full day I set out to melt some Pure lead and try some more bullets for the 38-55. I did a little work on the Mold first. I peened the alignment pins so that they wouldn't be falling out (very poor design for My thoughts). I ran about 25 bullets. After cooling a bit I ran them through the Lubrasizer. What a difference !! Thx Ray Newman for the tip, Who woulda thunk ? Now My question is (and I know U say U only use soft bullets with BP and PP) how does one size hard cast bullets for top end speed (not My cup-o-tea anyway) ? Maybe I am trying to size too far as I am still getting a tiny bit of smear but nothing like I was and the ease in which they pass through the sizer is most welcome.
On to the Cycling, bullet set in Long Brass is a No go while set in Starline short brass feeds well. I have a lot of both so maybe I will be trimming some but I think I have plenty of the short stuff anyway (might come up with another Gun needing the long Brass). So now it is on to loading up some rounds and making another trip to the Range. I am going to go with the Lyman loading manual and use 2400 which I have on hand. I didn't like Unique in My Old Marlin (too much space scared Me).
Now beings My Lee Mold is pretty much toast I am looking online for another mold. I have found a new Lyman "#375248" for $63. That is only twice the price of a Lee but without handles which I have a couple other molds I can switch with.
Perry

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:35 pm

RB You came in before I posted, good reading there. Beings the rebore is New I don't think I need to worry so much about Dia. The bullet choices r so few ( they r either big or small) so I think a 377 sized bullet will work fine -that's what I have in a sizer. So I had already posted about the Lyman mold 375248, does it actually drop a 375 bullet ? And does it not work well in Your JES rebores. I would buy another Lee knowing I have to be very careful making sure the pins get lined up before squeezing the handles. That's the only problem I see with them. Maybe it time for the Lee sizer followed by Lyman lubricator, trying to work with what I've got here. Again thx for Ur input, it will help.
Perry
I meant to put this pic in earlier, it's the note from JES. I also have 4198, so a couple options.
Perry

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:47 pm

Perry: hope the following will be of some help.

1-- Re. Mould diameter vis-à-vis cast bullet diameter.

If I recall correctly and from reading the Lyman mould instructions (see below link) and in various editions of the "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook", the Lyman bullet mould diameters are based on casting with the "Lyman #2 Alloy."

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bull ... gGuide.pdf

(As an aside, the "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook), 4 th. edition, is available from Buffalo Arms for approx. $25.00, plus shipping and handling. It is well worth it as it explains the casting procedure and has loads for various calibres with various manufacturers' moulds.)

However, too hot mould and /or too hot alloy effect cast bullet diameter. In essence, the hotter the mould becomes-- esp. steel moulds --the more it will expand. That is why pre heating the mould, casting cadence, and monitoring the melt temperature are important. Also, the alloy mixture/content will cast a bullet of different diameters s well as weights.

It takes some “trial and error” to determine what alloy, casting at what temperature, will give the desired diameter (or as close to as possible). That way the bullet will require as little sizing as possible. And the more sizing required, the more chance of bumping up the bullet nose to a larger diameter, which can/will cause leading and chambering issues.

2-- I have no experience with shooting hard cast bullets at high velocities. Have "heard" and read that cast bullets can be heat treated followed by a water quench to harden them further to prevent bore leading at high velocity. Never tried it as I do not want to use the kitchen oven to attempt heat treating lead bullets.

I have another "hunch" that after a certain velocity, the cast bullet will need a gas cheque to prevent leading. When I shot 500 g cast bullets in my Browning 1886, I loaded a gas cheque designed bullet.

3-- Veral Smith of Lead Bullet Technology authored a pamphlet about high velocity cast bullets "Jacketed Performance with cast Bullet" See below link. It might be helpful for you or others.
http://lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml

It might be advisable to once again call JES Rebore and ask them for a mould and alloy recommendation. Just might save you a great deal of time and frustration.

And something else to remember, since the original .38-55 Ballard-Winchester was a black powder cartridge, I have been told that there are no SAAMI specifications for the chamber, bore and bullet size. This is why there is a plethora (pardon me while I wax eloquent) of chamber and bore sizes. And this is not unique to only the .38-55 cartridge.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:07 pm

Got My press halfway set up today, It is a Lee turret press. I don't have the LR primer tool so have to prime by hand. I am using the powder system with the press and as such I used 4198 powder. It is the only powder that is listed that I have. I am just going by the loading data that came with the Lee dies. Anyhow I played around with the powder drop till I was happy with the consistency. 20.5 gns 4198. That's just over starting point. I am pretty limited with the powder Disk design.
I loaded one and stepped around back and capped it off. Mild recoil with a Nice report. Well that was fun so I did it a couple more times. I don't have the sights set up yet. I have a tang sight that I got from Shasta over a year ago but the Tang isn't drilled & tapped. Easy enough to do but I'm contemplating another option.
Anyhow I am Happy so far but the Casting and sizing is far from ideal.
Thx Ray, I have seen the Lyman book on E-bay and I'm not sure I don't have one. It will take some digging to find it. Those 377 bullets put a slight bulge in the Starline case, I'm not happy with that.
For now - Perry

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:30 pm

Perry, I think I can help you out a little bit here. If you will PM me your mailing address, I will send you some Lyman 375248 bullets to try, as well as some RCBS 37-250-FN gas checked bullets. Heck, I may even have some other types, just don't remember for sure. Trying the bullets before buying an expensive mold might be the best way to go! It should only take a couple days to get a package from here to there.

SHASTA

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:50 pm

Shasta ! Ur too cool. Do U shoot that Lyman with success ? I will send U My addy. Do U per chance have a hardness tester ? Or Anyone else for that matter that wouldn't mind receiving some bullets from Me to test just to see where I'm at with My alloy.
Pm coming Shasta.
Perry

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:03 pm

Well dang! Now that you have actually popped a cap or two we'll probably lose this entertaining thread. But I'll bet you're ready to get some shooting in, Perry.

Anyway, something came up in this thread that has been bothering me. I have to say I am a little shocked that fellow levergunners would do something as primitive as to pound a slug through a barrel with a rod just to measure the bore diameter. Since the Chinese invented gunpowder we haven't had to resort to such a brute force technique: just use gunpowder, but not very much of it. The wife has a big rag bin she keeps in the garage and I use that as a bullet stop for the rounds I just kinda' poop through the barrel with a dab of powder. How much powder you ask? Well, I've stuck a couple 30's in the barrel with 2.5 grains of Red Dot so I use 3 grains for 30/30 and also 35 Rem with 180 grain bullets. Your 38/55 would probably get the bullet on through the barrel with 3.5 grains, though if you're using a 300 grain bullet or thereabouts I might go with 4 grains. Even if you do have to pound a round out that didn't make it all the way, at least it is well engraved and started and isn't too bad to pound through.

In case anybody is interested, I looked at my notes and see that 1.2 grains of Green Dot put a 200 grain 44/40 through a 20" barrel OK and 1.4 grains of Red Dot put a 185 grain bullet through 20" of 454 Casull barrel. I have occasionally put holes through more of her rags than I intended but the girl hasn't seemed to notice.

I'm sure lots of fellows on this forum use the "shoot-em" technique and we could probably compile load suggestions for a wide range of cartridges for just barely squirting a bullet through a bore. The ones I listed are the only ones where I recorded my loads. I used Red Dot and Green Dot because those are the fast pistol powders I have available; I'd imagine it wouldn't matter a whole lot which fast powder you used.

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:52 pm

Perry, yes, I do have a lead hardness tester. It is a Saeco, and I sure use the heck out of it. The only disadvantage is it will only measure an actual bullet, so it can't be used on any old scrap of lead like some others. It takes me quite a while sometimes to get a pot of lead alloyed right because my lead is of unknown origin, so i usually have to harden or soften a batch to get it where I want it.
I'll check for your PM.

SHASTA

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:56 pm

pwl44m wrote:Shasta ! Ur too cool. Do U shoot that Lyman with success ? I will send U My addy. Do U per chance have a hardness tester ? Or Anyone else for that matter that wouldn't mind receiving some bullets from Me to test just to see where I'm at with My alloy.
Pm coming Shasta.
Perry

PM'd ya. I have an LBT tester. Tests bullets or a hunk of lead that's about bullet sized fine... but it needs a flat bottom.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:21 am

Ray Newman wrote:Chuck100yd mentioned a shop fabricated push-through sizer. Lee offers such a kit that works very well. Back when I loaded grease groove bullets, I pan lube the bullets, then sized them with the lee push-through sizing kit. It works very well, custom sizes are available, and for US$25.00, the price is right.
http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/ ... izing-kit/

you will find that lee does not list a sizer for 379/381 range. you could get a 35 and polish it out, or
perhaps they might make a custom job for you.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:37 am

pokey wrote:
Ray Newman wrote:Chuck100yd mentioned a shop fabricated push-through sizer. Lee offers such a kit that works very well. Back when I loaded grease groove bullets, I pan lube the bullets, then sized them with the lee push-through sizing kit. It works very well, custom sizes are available, and for US$25.00, the price is right.
http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/ ... izing-kit/
you will find that lee does not list a sizer for 379/381 range. you could get a 35 and polish it out, or
perhaps they might make a custom job for you.

That is what I found out after hours of searching. Then when I went to their website it said if Ur size isn't listed to contact them for a custom size. And I'm assuming for the same price.
Perry

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:55 pm

Care package is on its way, Perry. You should have it by Saturday. Good Luck!

SHASTA

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:15 pm

Shasta wrote:Care package is on its way, Perry. You should have it by Saturday. Good Luck!

SHASTA

Thx Shasta, Mine is also on the way to Griff. Bullets flyin all over the place !
Hey if Ur not busy on the 21st or 22nd, Gun Show in Colusa. Not a very big show and quite the drive.
Perry

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:19 pm

Griff wrote:
pwl44m wrote:Shasta ! Ur too cool. Do U shoot that Lyman with success ? I will send U My addy. Do U per chance have a hardness tester ? Or Anyone else for that matter that wouldn't mind receiving some bullets from Me to test just to see where I'm at with My alloy.
Pm coming Shasta.
Perry
PM'd ya. I have an LBT tester. Tests bullets or a hunk of lead that's about bullet sized fine... but it needs a flat bottom.

Thx Griff, they're on the way. 2x377, 2x427, 1x358. 2 pure leads in the former and 2 wheel weight. The 358 is also WW.
Perry

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:37 pm

pwl44m wrote:
Shasta wrote:Care package is on its way, Perry. You should have it by Saturday. Good Luck!

SHASTA
Thx Shasta, Mine is also on the way to Griff. Bullets flyin all over the place !
Hey if Ur not busy on the 21st or 22nd, Gun Show in Colusa. Not a very big show and quite the drive.
Perry

Perry,

Do you know actual date for Colusa Gun Show? I can't find it on the internet. It can't be 21st or 22nd as that is a Tuesday and a Wednesday? I know there is a show in Sacramento 18th-19th, can't imagine they would schedule the Colusa Gun Show at the same time.

SHASTA

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:59 pm

My Bad, Colusa is 18th & 19th. I've been telling everyone 21 & 22.
Got Ur Bullets, My goodness that was more than a few. Had any of those been sized ? They went through My sizer easy. I only did one or 2 from each lot. Does that 375248 mold drop a 379 ? I am waiting to hear from Griff to see how hard My lead is. That might be My prob.
I am waiting on parts for My Lee press. I don't have the large primer Safety Prime , just the small.
Perry

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:03 am

Shasta wrote:Perry, yes, I do have a lead hardness tester. It is a Saeco, and I sure use the heck out of it. The only disadvantage is it will only measure an actual bullet, so it can't be used on any old scrap of lead like some others. It takes me quite a while sometimes to get a pot of lead alloyed right because my lead is of unknown origin, so i usually have to harden or soften a batch to get it where I want it.
I'll check for your PM.

SHASTA

My bad again, I just saw this post for the first time, don't know how I missed it. Waiting to see what Griff comes up with. Thx for the offer.
Perry

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:36 am

pwl44m wrote:My Bad, Colusa is 18th & 19th. I've been telling everyone 21 & 22.
Got Ur Bullets, My goodness that was more than a few. Had any of those been sized ? They went through My sizer easy. I only did one or 2 from each lot. Does that 375248 mold drop a 379 ? I am waiting to hear from Griff to see how hard My lead is. That might be My prob.
I am waiting on parts for My Lee press. I don't have the large primer Safety Prime , just the small.
Perry

Hey Perry,

If Colusa is running the same weekend as Sacramento, it won't be worth a hoot as every dealer of consequence will be at Sac. I sometimes like to try getting on for a duck hunt at Sacramento National Wildlife Refuge the same weekend as the Colusa show, and if I can't get on to hunt, (which is usually the case), I just head on down to the Colusa Gun Show.

As for the bullets I sent, each batch is labeled by bullet type, hardness, etc., and the sized ones are also lubed. The ones without lube have not been sized, but are as-cast. The Lyman 375248 mold belongs to my brother-in-law, and I borrowed it a few years ago. If memory serves, it is about .378" as cast. I haven't been shooting them as my rifle has a .379" bore and does best with the RCBS 37-250-FN gas checked bullet. Given the smaller bore diameter of your re-lined rifle, the Lyman bullet may work well for you.

SHASTA

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:53 pm

Got the report back from the BHN Doctor today. I got some Hard Lead. Of 5 bullets tested they ran from 17 to 20. May explain difficulty pushing them through My sizer but I am only dropping .002.
There is definitely a lot more to learn in this process and with more free time becoming available it will be an adventure. I know it aint rocket science but it is more than just getting some lead, casting some boolits, loading some rounds and shooting the gnats off a Deer tick. I'm having fun and that's what counts to Me. Now I have to load up some rounds from the bullets that Shasta sent Me and see how they do.
Thx to Griff (the BHN DR.) for His assistance in this endeavor.
Perry

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:26 am

pwl44m wrote:Thx to Griff (the BHN DR.) for His assistance in this endeavor.
Perry

Hardly! But, you're more than welcome.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:41 am

I think I have it figgered out. As U know the Lee mold messed up but I got it working reasonably well. I messed the mold up with a drill bit. This mold casts a bevel based bullet for easier loading into the case without too much bell on the case. In trying to figure out the prob earlier I thought that tiny little lip for the bell shouldn't be there so I took a drill bit and turned it with My fingers to remove that tiny little lip. "Dumb" that was suppose to be there. While the mold isn't completely toast as I previously thought, it just wont cast a bevel base. It is now a flat base mold like the Lyman.
Shasta sent Me some bullets, My main interest was on the bullets from the Lyman 375248 mold. They went through My sizer like butter. I have 20 of them loaded up and on the day that I planned to shoot them it rained (hasn't done that in a couple months). I liked the bullets so well that I went ahead and ordered the Lyman mold and Lee handles (the titewad in Me). That mold throws a very nice bullet that goes through My sizer well. I am using the same alloy as before which is coming in at around 20 bhn. I like the setup so far. Now being stubborn and I like that bullet that the Lee throws so I ordered another Lee 379250 mold because of the bevel base, figured it would be less stress on the brass. Mold comes in- fire up the furnace- cast some bullets- size them (I should say try to size them). They are very hard to get through the sizer and I get the same smear as I did before but not as bad as when the mold alignment pins were loose and casting lopsided bullets.
This mold throws a 379 to 380 bullet and My "final analysis is that I am trying to take them too far. It is only 2 to 3 thousandths but the sizer don't like it. Now U can imagine the trouble I was having trying to size down those 383s that I have. The Lyman mold throws a little smaller bullet and while I can feel some resistance in the sizer it is nothing like the Lee bullet. That bullet will still be OK for a little bigger bore that doesn't need sized.
My sizer is working well now although it leaks like a sieve and a pain at least it sizes and lubes.
Thanks to all Who have commented and offered suggestions which gave Me different things to try and observe. Trial and error proved itself in this saga and I learned a heap. You tube was a big help as I would not have known where to start, however You tube is not a know all learn all type tutor. You still have to learn what works for You. I am going to talk a little about Lee molds Vs Lyman but in another thread.
Thx for listening and helping. Maybe Someone else learned something from My experience and maybe not but I sure did !
Perry

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:44 am

The overwhelming majority of my moulds are Lyman with one Hoch and one RCBS I got in trade. I like that heavy steel.