Hot Water VS Diesel Fuel

[rbertalotto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=FLQhvruimfs

A 850 H.P. John Deere diesel vs. a steam tractor rated 18 H.P?

It's all about torque and traction..

[Blaine]

That had to be embarrassing.....

[rjohns94]

Only 18hp? Wow

[pdentrem]

That steamer likely weighs a WHOLE lot more than the JD and with the large diameter wheels, it has a lot more traction as noted in earlier post.
Pierre

[horsesoldier03]

I am curious if the strap being connected higher on the Steam Tractor would have any advantage for it. I would think to be a fair assessment the strap connecting the two should be even. However, I was still shocked that the two were even a comparable match.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Yes , If the drawbar connecting the two tractors had been mounted level so it was not lifting the modern tractor it would have been more fair.

[Griff]

Yes , If the drawbar connecting the two tractors had been mounted level so it was not lifting the modern tractor it would have been more fair.

But, I question that would have affected the outcome one bit. That JD was still diggin' a hole as it was being pulled backward...

Horsepower is all well and good... but when it comes to pullin', torque is where it's AT! I wonder what the torque ratings were? I'll bet that steam tractor has twice the torque that JD does.

[92&94]

I wonder what would happen if you balanced the two in weight and gearing

[harry]

I wonder what would happen if you balanced the two in weight and gearing

I don't think adding 10000 lbs to the john deere would help that much

[.45colt]

When I was much Younger some where around 1974 I shot trap and skeet with a bunch of old Geezers. They took Me under there Wing and tried to show Me some Light. One of them was an old bachelor "Harry The Welder". He had been around heavy machines and steel His whole Life including Steam Locomotives. Most of us were but Kid's and would talk trucks, motors and anything big and power full. One Day after a large rant about horsepower Harry looked funny at the author of it and said" Have you ever seen the power of expanding steam?" Years of Experience were in His Eyes.....

[Chuck 100 yd]

Torque is also useless unless it can be transferred to the ground. That old steamer has a lot of weight and a large foot print for it`s weight.

[cshold]

Very impressive

[Grizz]

they say steam has infinite torque, something you can't get from oil

[Blaine]

they say steam has infinite torque, something you can't get from oil

I don't know one little thing about the physics of steam, but, they have tried to make a diesel-type engine to run on water being compressed until if becomes steam.....won't really work (or, is that what you're talking about?)

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Torque is also useless unless it can be transferred to the ground. That old steamer has a lot of weight and a large foot print for it`s weight.

There it is. If you aint hooking up you aint out pulling the other guy, no matter what the hp and torque is.
That old streamer probably out weighs the JD by twice. Look at it. There's no sheet metal on it just heavy iron and who knows how much water weight it has on board.

[handirifle]

Now THAT was impressive. Didn't know JD made a 4 wheel rototiller though!

I know that steamer had tons of weight on it, but the tread on its tires was no where near as aggressive as those on the JD. I doubt moving that chain would have made any difference either. I am most surprised the JD didn't break an axle. I bet if you added a few thousand pounds to the JD, it WOULD have broken something. If his tires had not sun that steamer would have started snapping the JD's innards.

[Grizz]

they say steam has infinite torque, something you can't get from oil

I don't know one little thing about the physics of steam, but, they have tried to make a diesel-type engine to run on water being compressed until if becomes steam.....won't really work (or, is that what you're talking about?)

what I think it means is that you can't keep steam from expanding, and it will drive a very oversquare prop, for example, that you would have to highly gear an oil engine to move. also, I think that piston size has its own gearing effect. need Pitchy or one of the other steam guys to get this straight...

[AJMD429]

Somebody could make LOTS of money marketing a steam-engine powered generator that is affordably priced. The ones I've seen are custom-jobs that cost way more than ones powered by diesel or other internal combustion engines, and other than 'volume produced' as a price-factor, it seems overly steep pricing.

What farm or rural household wouldn't be better off with a steam (wood, coal, etc.) powered generator for emergencies (especially the 'long-term' kind), vs. one depending on gasoline, natural gas, diesel, or propane...???

Supposedly it can be done by the home-brew mechanics (http://endtimesreport.com/home_bred.html) but that leaves the non-mechanical folks like me out of luck. Interesting reading, anyhow - http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/goebel43.html

[Hawkeye2]

What has to be embarasing is thet the steam tractor had to pull him out of the hole he had dug for himself. Back in the early 70's a friend was braging on his new 350 powered Chevy 4wd with a turbohydro and positraction. Another friend had a 59 Ford (first year Ford 4wd) 292 V8, 2 barrel, single exhaust, 4 speed no posi. They decided to chain them together back to back on dry level pavement. The Ford pulled the Chevy out of the filling station yard and into the street with the Chevy smoking it's tires.

[Grizz]

Doc

I've seen a site with a home made generator driven by steam....

but, how about a 12v system with the wood or coal heat supplying low level steam to a big marine alternator.

that would take care of backup or replacing an entire solar panel installation

could be done with turbine rather than recip...

[92&94]

Physics isn't exactly my best subject, but I can tell you that there is no infinite anything in mechanical physics. Use a heavy enough vessel and you sure can keep any gas from expanding. At high pressure that steam will condense back to super heated water (same reason propane is a liquid in the tank).

What you are seeing in the tug of war is efficiency vs. brute force. The diesel tractor is vastly more fuel efficient - it was designed with just enough weight to do it's real job, which has nothing to do with trying to lug a steam tractor through a field. The steam tractor is vastly overbuilt for that same job, and due to the nature of technology at the time it was built, it is far heavier and thus better able to transfer it's energy into movement. As Chuck pointed out, torque is useless without traction.

Another advantage of the steam tractor in this case is engine momentum (or whatever it is correctly called). The much larger piston and shafts in the engine are like having a huge flywheel like you see on old press brakes and oil well pumps. The momentum of the flywheel allows the use of an engine or motor with less absolute torque, effectively storing the energy from part of the cycle where load is light for use in the one point where lots of torque is needed. You might almost say that it averages the load over time - the mass of the steam engine does this too.

I bet if that diesel tractor had been designed with out-pulling a steam tractor in mind, the results would be quite different.

[Don McDowell]

How was the horsepower determined? That's a model 850 JD tractor and has nothing to do with the horsepower. Also the JD is set on wider tires which are designed to cause less ground compaction. The rear end and transmission on that JD has also been modified to give high speed and not pulling torque. Put narrow tires on that JD in original configuration and the outcome might be a little different, but then again it might not as that steam engine is pretty heavy, and with it's low gear ratio is going to have a bunch more pulling torque, but then again it's top speed is probably going to be 5 mph (maybe) and the JD in factory original will be capable of 25 mph ( no load).

[Thunder50]

Was at a tractor pull one fall. No one was able to pull the sled all the way, until an old JD "B" or "C" (IIRC) was hooked up. That 2 cylinder tractor pulled the sled all the way and kept going. shocked everyone, except the old farmer that used the tractor. Really humiliated a bunch of people.

[rbertalotto]

Put narrow tires on that JD in original configuration and the outcome might be a little different

Deeper ruts!........

No substitute for large diameter wheels and weight. The JD never ran out of power, it was spinning its wheels, it just ran out of traction.

[Don McDowell]

As much as that JD had to slip the clutch just to get that old Brumley moving in neutral, it's pretty obvious the thing was out of power before the fun started..

[QCI Winchesters]

No surprise, steam powered logging machinery would out pull diesel stuff easily. The old steam yarders, even the smaller ones, would easily snap 1" and larger wire rope. The other thing was that steam engines had huge torque at any speed, no need to buzz up to 2000rpm to get pulling power. One old logger, who worked from the late 30's right into the 80's, told me that the most powerful diesel yarders would not pull as hard as one of the smaller steam yarders, the 10x12 (bore and stroke). He figured the only thing that would come close to steam power would be diesel electric.

[flatnose]

Yep, the diesel electric is the only thing that can match a steam engine. Both are capable of making massive amounts of torque at low rpms, without the need for torque multiplication through gearboxes. By varying the voltage or steam pressure you can apply maximum torque from a standing start. Cant do that with a gas or diesel motor. Even with a gearbox the motors rpm has to be brought up to deliver sufficient torque, and you may not reach that rpm band without a slider clutch.

[GonnePhishin]

Who would of 'thunk that would've happened

[GonnePhishin]

Doc said:

What farm or rural household wouldn't be better off with a steam (wood, coal, etc.) powered generator for emergencies (especially the 'long-term' kind), vs. one depending on gasoline, natural gas, diesel, or propane...???

Yeah but, it wouldn't pass EPA regulations. If they want to regulate how much cows fanny burp, they'd never let anything like that get mass produced. Would have to build yer own.

[1894]

Now THAT was impressive. Didn't know JD made a 4 wheel rototiller though!

That was my first thought watching the video .
Look Ma , I got a fancy green and yellow tow behind rototiller

[hayabusa]

Remember GOOGLE is your friend?

850 HP?
Not to rain on anyone's parade but ,

Production:
Distributor: John Deere
Manufacturer: Yanmar
Factory: Japan
Original price (USD): $11,000 (198


John Deere 850 Engine:
Yanmar 1.3L 3-cyl diesel

John Deere 850 Power:
Drawbar (claimed): 19 hp [14.2 kW]
PTO (claimed): 22 hp [16.4 kW]
Drawbar (tested): 17.77 hp [13.3 kW]
PTO (tested): 22.27 hp [16.6 kW]

hayabusa

[Pitchy]

There`s a thrashing show in MN where they pull a 16 bottom plow with a 110 HP Case traction engine, doubt the JD would pull that either.
It`s not the HP it`s the gearing and weight and the large wheels of the TE.
Them old timers new what they were doing, though if ya dig in one of those TE ya have a problem too.

[Bruce Scott]

The tractor in the video is actually a John Deere 8130.

John Deere 8130 Power:
Engine: 240 hp [179.0 kW]
PTO (claimed): 180 hp [134.2 kW]
Drawbar (tested): 158.05 hp [117.9 kW]
PTO (tested): 208.27 hp [155.3 kW]

Still nowhere near the claimed 850 hp

This is the JD 850:


http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractor ... e-850.html

[flatnose]

The Deere in the video is not stock.it is modified. According to Deere website that tractor should have a 6 cylinder...it has an 8.

[Don McDowell]

It sounds like the put a perkins on the thing, much like the engine that Massey runs on some of their tractors.
Yup that is a dragster tractor, modified for speed, not pulling.

[Pitchy]

It sounds like the put a perkins on the thing, much like the engine that Massey runs on some of their tractors.
Yup that is a dragster tractor, modified for speed, not pulling.

Wouldn`t mater if it had the gearing or the HP the TE would drag it all day long.

Something like this might have a chance.

[harry]

It sounds like the put a perkins on the thing, much like the engine that Massey runs on some of their tractors.
Yup that is a dragster tractor, modified for speed, not pulling.

Wouldn`t mater if it had the gearing or the HP the TE would drag it all day long.

Something like this might have a chance.

I'd be supprised if it could Pitchy, most of these tractors are engineeried to have less than 6 lbs per square inch of compaction. The steamer maybe hundreds of pounds per square inch. I think they would start picking up the front end before they slipped a wheel.

[Don McDowell]

Doesn't look like the front wheel assist ever kicked in on the JD. Wonder if he disconnected it for the racing purposes?