"The pistol is to fight your way back to a rifle....&qu

[ScottT]

These sayings, like many others that one can come up with ("beware the man with one gun....comes immediately to mind) have a grain of truth to them. That truth is what keeps them around and why we remember them.

But it is dangerous to base your mindset with regard to the use of a firearm in a self-defense situation on a trite saying.

The fact is that if you are faced with a life and death situation, and I pray that you never are, you will have to fight with what is at hand at the moment and the chances are overwhelming that the fight will be over before you would be able to go to your car/boat/plane/home/safe or whatever to retrieve something else with which to fight.

Remeber that the "fight" is the important part of the equation. We fight with guns, with cars, with ashtrays, chairs, beer mugs, boots.....the list is endless. I think we focus on the tool too much, and it is easy to do because we all love guns and it is a part of our tradition for most of us. The man is always more important than the tool. Some folks are just plain dangerous and some are not. It does not matter how they might be armed or what tool they may have at the moment.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but I think it is timely in light of the recent posts on bug out bags, battle pistols and others.

[wm]

The firearm, the knife, the club, etc are all just tools......I am the weapon.

That is my personal philosphy. If you are my enemy then you should pay less attention to what is in my hand and more to what is in my heart and mind.

I WILL find a way to defeat you.

Wm

P.S. My other guiding principle is that if I am in a fair fight my tactics and planning were second rate.

[cnjarvis]

The firearm, the knife, the club, etc are all just tools......I am the weapon.

That is my personal philosphy.

I like that and I'll have to remember that.

There is no such thing as a fair fight - do whatever it takes to win.

Good point Scott, all weapons are tools and any tool can be used as a weapon and some people are dangerous whether armed or not.

[Ysabel Kid]

Excellent points. Anything can be a weapon with a little imagination. It is all in attitude, preparation, and determination. I will fight to win and to survive to protect my family. I will use anything at hand, any method, any trick, anything to embrace my loved ones again. I will show no mercy to those who would prevent me from doing so, and extinguish with extreme prejudice any who threaten them or myself.

Mental clarity, a will to survive - as wm said, "I am the weapon"...

[jengel]

I am an instructor for CLAMP, SWAT DeTac and Controlled FORCE defensive tactics. I always thought that you should first have training in defensive tactics and then in firearms. I also think that weapon retention is of great importance and is not taught in the vast majority of concealed carry courses throughout the country. I have a friend that has a CCW here in Kansas and I asked him if he has ever been shown weapon retention. He did not know what I was saying.

You're right Scott, you fight with the weapon that you have at the time. Of course, law enforcement has the Use of Force Continuum and it should apply to civilians too. Use the lowest level of force needed to control the situation.

I agree with the concept of using a handgun to get to a more effective firearm but I never let it cloud my decision to use the handgun first. I always carried at least two if not three guns on me when I was on duty. I felt that if I needed to arm someone, that was one more person that I could have to help me out.

EDIT: I didn't just carry extra guns just to arm people, they were for me. I did think about what I would do if the the situation arose though.

[rjohns94]

I would agree with you. I included the line in my original post because that was what I had heard in the past from others, to fight with your pistol to get to your rifle.

For me, the fights are 1) avoided when out by minimizing my exposure to areas that are known hot spots; 2) barrier protected while in my home with security, locks, dogs, and other means of defence; 3) always anticipated so that I am not taken by surprise. (For instance in "safe" places like churches and other areas, I am always scanning, planning, evaluating; 4)always a win only proposition. I have been trained to use force, practiced the training in war and on the streets, and am continually prepared to use that training and experience gained, and wisdom coached, to win a fight. I don't seek them, but as a sheepdog, I am ready for them.

I don't fight to a rifle because in the past, the fight has been over long before I could have reached a rifle. Those have been cases where the fight was brought to me or I happened upon it. Should I ever have to take a fight to someone, I probably already would have a rifle with me.


Just MHO

blessings

[Blackhawk]

The firearm, the knife, the club, etc are all just tools......I am the weapon.

That is my personal philosphy. If you are my enemy then you should pay less attention to what is in my hand and more to what is in my heart and mind.

I WILL find a way to defeat you.

Wm

P.S. My other guiding principle is that if I am in a fair fight my tactics and planning were second rate.

I was always told the only fair fight is the fight you win. Be it with fist, feet, teeth, a club, a rock, whatever. I like your belief as well and believe the same way.

Johnny

[cowboykell]

Rambo, Rambo, is that you Rambo?

[jengel]

Rambo, Rambo, is that you Rambo?

Rambo was a little feller.

[Malamute]

Excellent post Scott.

[wm]

Rambo.....read the book but have never seen any of the movies.

I gather they are much different.

Wm

[Blaine]

The folder in my right front pocket gives me a warm fuzzy as much as the carry piece. A pencil or pen could ruin a thug's day.... It's all in the TestTickles.....

[Old Ironsights]

The folder in my right front pocket gives me a warm fuzzy as much as the carry piece. A pencil or pen could ruin a thug's day.... It's all in the TestTickles.....

What's the practical difference?

One will pass TSA the other won't.

One can be used lethally fairly easily, and it's much more difficult with the other. Guess which one I can (& do) carry behind security?

[jengel]

I carry a Kubaton too.

[Old Ironsights]

I carry a Kubaton too.

Not through Security you don't. It's classified as a"weapon".

I even lost one back before the "TSA" was invented.

Of course, the solid aircraft aluminium barrel pen makes it through just fine...

[jengel]

I carry a Kubaton too.

Not through Security you don't. It's classified as a"weapon".

I even lost one back before the "TSA" was invented.

Of course, the solid aircraft aluminium barrel pen makes it through just fine...

You're right. I left mine at home when I flew to Las Vegas to the SHOT Show. I recommend them to women when I do defensive tactics classes. My wife carries one every day. She can kick butt too.

[canonsix]

Several years ago I was confronted by a "guns are evil person" who decried the need for an " assault weapon", I asked this young lady(I AM being kind) what is an assault weapon. ??
After much sputtering she attempted to use her extensive , debate experience on me by asking" well what is you definition of an "assault weapon", my answer shut her up ."THE WEAPON I HAVE WHEN I ASSAULT YOUR STINKY BUTT" , OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT. Doug

[Triggernosis]

For me, the fights are

1) avoided when out by minimizing my exposure to areas that are known hot spots; ....

3) always anticipated so that I am not taken by surprise. (For instance in "safe" places like churches and other areas, I am always scanning, planning, evaluating;...

Practicing these two items, I believe, will keep you out of almost any situation in which you would need a weapon anyway.

I've watched someone else get robbed in the parking lot before because I was too scared to get out of my car when I saw a thug standing in the shadows between two cars. The unlucky victim had her head up her azz, nose in the air, and a cell-phone to her ear.....

BTW, what's the purpose of those "kubotans"? I'm thinking a fist in the eye and run like hell would work better than trying to use one of those things...how ever you're supposed to use it.

[jengel]

BTW, what's the purpose of those "kubotans"? I'm thinking a fist in the eye and run like hell would work better than trying to use one of those things...how ever you're supposed to use it.

Kubatons are used for accessing certain pressure points on the body. They can also be used for leverage, striking, gouging and flailing. A good hard object across the ribs, eyes, ribs, anywhere that bones are close to the surface is a good place to strike.

[Texican]

How timely it is that my dear sweet Grandma sent this email to me today:

Guns & Fire Extinguishers

I think that this really says it well:
A gun is something that you don't really need it, until you need it, and then there is no substitute for it. On the bottom of this page is a statement that compares a gun to a fire extinguisher, it is an interesting comparison. Read it and "enjoy", then remember that our constitution recognizes our right to bear arms, and we must always fight, or do what ever we have to, too keep guns in our homes and God in our lives, school and government.

Both have always been there and if we take either out we endanger everything. . .

This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

As John Steinbeck once said:

1. Don't pick a fight with an "old fat guy". If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.

2. If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

3. I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.

4. When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.

5. A reporter did a human interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him, "Why carry a .45?". The Ranger responded with, "Because they don't make a .46." * Credit to Retired Texas Ranger Joaquin Jackson , Alpine, Texas.

6. An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity.

7. The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. "Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?" "No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle."

8. Beware the man who only has one gun. HE PROBABLY KNOWS HOW TO USE IT!

Comments:
I was once asked by a lady visiting if I had a gun in the house. To which I said I did. She said, "Well I certainly hope it isn't loaded!" To which I said, "Of course it is loaded, can't work without bullets.â€

[Idahoser]

I WILL find a way to defeat you.

When I got a ride in an F-16 years ago I got the briefing about what to do in case we had to eject. Talking about what to do with your chute if it gets tangled, they said to just keep working on it,
"it's what you'll be doing for the rest of your life"

[RSY]

Are those all verifiably from Steinbeck???

scott

[Texican]

Are those all verifiably from Steinbeck???

scott

Doubt any of them are. Just FWD'd it for the sentiment.

[alnitak]

In doing a quick internet search, they all have been attributed to him many times, including in some apparently credible sources. I've found corroboration on many of them, with the exception of the fire extinguisher one.

[505stevec]

I agree with Scott, trite little sayings sound good around those that are like minded. Its funny, witty and makes perfect sence to friends. But always remember that a jury of your peers does not mean a jury of like minded souls. Instead of planning so often about "no mercy" and "fight with what is at hand". Instead think of the fight after the fight because you will surely be in a fight, if not for your life then for your livelyhood. Once the shooting is over the fight has just begun. I would dare say... that if anyone here got into a shoot a good attorney darn their eyes would look into your past including forums and clubs and such to prove that you are a peranoid person that has just been waiting to shoot someone. JMHO

[El Chivo]

I think about that pistol/rifle saying every now and then, and it seems to me that if perps are close to you, your rifle wouldn't be any better than the pistol, perhaps worse.

The only way it makes sense is if there's a war situation, where you know the enemy on sight. Or if you're Bonnie and Clyde and are surrounded by G-men.

But a peacetime assault situation, the farthest people can be before you know they are hostiles is probably across the street.

You might as well carry extra ammo. If you wriggle out of the first few seconds you can keep blasting.

I see handguns as defensive weapons and rifles as offensive weapons.

In fact, if you do fight your way to your rifle, and finish off the perps, any jury would say the ones you killed with the rifle weren't justified. You were no longer in fear for your life, but out for revenge. They can break down what happened second by second and you go from justified to murderous in the blink of an eye.

As for those quotes, those are Bruce Springsteen's. If you play the album "Nebraska" backwards, you'll hear them.

[ScottT]

I think about that pistol/rifle saying every now and then, and it seems to me that if perps are close to you, your rifle wouldn't be any better than the pistol, perhaps worse.

The only way it makes sense is if there's a war situation, where you know the enemy on sight. Or if you're Bonnie and Clyde and are surrounded by G-men.

But a peacetime assault situation, the farthest people can be before you know they are hostiles is probably across the street.

You might as well carry extra ammo. If you wriggle out of the first few seconds you can keep blasting.

I see handguns as defensive weapons and rifles as offensive weapons.

In fact, if you do fight your way to your rifle, and finish off the perps, any jury would say the ones you killed with the rifle weren't justified. You were no longer in fear for your life, but out for revenge. They can break down what happened second by second and you go from justified to murderous in the blink of an eye.

As for those quotes, those are Bruce Springsteen's. If you play the album "Nebraska" backwards, you'll hear them.

I knew I would be sorry I returned to the board. Ah well....

[Leverdude]

Is he wrong?

It does seem far fetched to need a rifle in a purely defensive situation.

[ScottT]

Is he wrong?

It does seem far fetched to need a rifle in a purely defensive situation.

Yes, in so many ways.

[Idahoser]

Shooting somebody is of course a last resort, these tools we keep nearby are 'just in case'. There can certainly be situations where the handgun isn't enough, of course. Needing it and not having it-- sound familiar?

[FWiedner]

About 20 years ago a nice foreign gentleman and I exchanged gunfire inside a dark warehouse located in a lovely sub-tropical central-american country, because he was where he wasn't supposed to be and I was supposed to do something about it. I had a 1911 and he had something else.

My trite philosophy revolved around the idea of making him fall down and shooting him again.

My opening thoughts were "Get behind something" and "Shoot at him". I spent most of a magazine before I actually thought about aiming.

Must have exchanged about 15-rounds in the dark, and neither he nor I hit squat before he ran.

Scared the stuff outta me.

[Jarhead]

About 20 years ago a nice foreign gentleman and I exchanged gunfire inside a dark warehouse located in a lovely sub-tropical central-american country, because he was where he wasn't supposed to be and I was supposed to do something about it. I had a 1911 and he had something else.

My trite philosophy revolved around the idea of making him fall down and shooting him again.

My opening thoughts were "Get behind something" and "Shoot at him". I spent most of a magazine before I actually thought about aiming.

Must have exchanged about 15-rounds in the dark, and neither he nor I hit squat before he ran.

Scared the stuff outta me.

Spray and Pray Very Scary....

[Malamute]

This came up in the past.

I see no difference in what you use for defense. Defense is dependant on someone else opening the ball, and intending you or someone else harm. Whatever you use to stop that attack, it's a defensive tool.

[jengel]

This came up in the past.

I see no difference in what you use for defense. Defense is dependant on someone else opening the ball, and intending you or someone else harm. Whatever you use to stop that attack, it's a defensive tool.

Yup, that pretty much sums it it. Good point.

[El Mac]

These sayings, like many others that one can come up with ("beware the man with one gun....comes immediately to mind) have a grain of truth to them. That truth is what keeps them around and why we remember them.

But it is dangerous to base your mindset with regard to the use of a firearm in a self-defense situation on a trite saying.

The fact is that if you are faced with a life and death situation, and I pray that you never are, you will have to fight with what is at hand at the moment and the chances are overwhelming that the fight will be over before you would be able to go to your car/boat/plane/home/safe or whatever to retrieve something else with which to fight.

Remeber that the "fight" is the important part of the equation. We fight with guns, with cars, with ashtrays, chairs, beer mugs, boots.....the list is endless. I think we focus on the tool too much, and it is easy to do because we all love guns and it is a part of our tradition for most of us. The man is always more important than the tool. Some folks are just plain dangerous and some are not. It does not matter how they might be armed or what tool they may have at the moment.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but I think it is timely in light of the recent posts on bug out bags, battle pistols and others.

Logic and good common sense like this will definitely win you few friends and glamour shot gun mag articles. In fact, it will garner you ridicule and heat from the mall ninjas and those that worship all that is "tacticool".

And thats too bad. We all could use a little more truth like this in our lives...

[cas]

That's just silly. Just like when people say things like "If you shoot someone who's more than 30 yards away, you're going to jail no matter what."


So if I'm shooting at you at 50 yards away, you're not going to shoot back?
If you retreat 50 more yards to your rifle... and I'm still shooting at you, you're not going to shoot back? That's silly.


The problem with the "the handgun is for fighting your way back to your rifle" is people use it as an excuse to not be proficient with their sidearm.

Last year while working the range, I was watching a friend shoot a revolver at 50 yards. Another shooter said to him.. "Why are you shooting your pistol so far away? I was always trained that your pistols for fighting your way back to your rifle." I won't say what this mans job is, but it's a serious gov job where he's armed (seriously armed) all the time, protecting some, shall we say.. very important "stuff."

I was dumbfounded by this for a number of reasons.

1st 50 yards is not far for anything bigger than a BB gun.

2. My friend was shooting a Custom Shop 6" heavy barrel SCOPED S&W 629 .44 Mag. It wasn't like he was banging blindly with a sub compact Glock or something. (Is he a genius?)

3. I know they make him qualify all the time, and send him to schools. What kind of training is he getting?

My response was... (dumbfoundedly) "Uh... that's not far."

What's far to you?, he asked.

I gave him my old " With iron sights? Anything inside of 200 yards isn't far" answer.

[sore shoulder]

I gave him my old " With iron sights? Anything inside of 200 yards isn't far" answer.

A few years back, Malemute taught me to shoot my 1911 well out past 100yrds. Seems one of his neighbors who makes custom big bore pistols in chamberings named after him, using Ruger frames, had an influence on him. Anyway, after a couple weeks practicing at those distances, 30 feet became childs play.

As to rifles being useless in close quarters, I'm sure glad they don't tell us that when doing CQB training.

[El Chivo]

There was a pretty good article by a gentleman who lived in Argentina when they had their economic crash, and a lot of people turned to crime.

He made the point that rifles are fine tools, but attacks come on streets, in parking lots, in your driveway, etc, and there isn't time to find a rifle if you want to survive it.

I'm sure there are situations where other circumstances prevail, such as in the country, on a ranch, etc. But he was talking about the most common situations.

So utility is the most important characteristic of your weapon. If you're in an area where you can carry a rifle on your shoulder, fine, but, not many of us are in that situation.

His point was to be realistic about the circumstances you'll be facing.

I don't own any handguns, and couldn't carry one if I did. But every night when I come home I check the garage for the thieves that visit often. I have a knife ready to open if I need it. I would probably use it as a deterrent or to get the opportunity to run.

Hey Scott, I noticed you edited your reply, this morning you had the comment up that I think I'm a lawyer.

Pretty low to resort to namecalling.

[Jaguarundi]

ScottT-nice post !

[Leverdude]

Is he wrong?

It does seem far fetched to need a rifle in a purely defensive situation.

Yes, in so many ways.

I should clarify, I'm talking from a legal standpoint not a survival one.

I dont know & sure hope I never find out but in most instances I can think up I can see a prosecutor looking at a jury & explaining the Mr Prince (me) had plenty of opportunity to escape or was no longer danger & taking out mr bad guy at 50, or 100 yards was not necessary. I'm not saying I agree nor am I saying thats the only way to use a rifle defensively. I'm just saying what I'd expect to hear about such a thing.

I can imagine a hundred situations where a rifle can be used but not many that would stand up here IMO in court. Things arent the same everywhere and theres so many people here that exchanging shots at 50 or more yards can easily be deemed irresponsible & I'd think a hard action to defend in court.

But I'm just a metal worker & dont think much on those things.

[FWiedner]

Maybe I'm being simplistic on the issue, but wouldn't the need for a defensive response dictate the action?

If a fellow is running away from you at a distance, you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that there was an imminent danger of bodily harm.

OTOH, if he is at a distance and laying down fire in your direction, the circumstance and defensive requirement is dramatically different.

I wonder, would a combatant taking pot-shots over his shoulder, in your general direction as he ran, qualify for a rifle shot square to center-mass?

[Idahoser]

Before anybody gets too deeply into this and tries to make some sort of absolute rule out of us just talking (too late I guess )

Remember we get riled when the gov't tries to take away our privilege to carry a little gun 'just in case' something happens that frankly, for most folks, isn't ever going to. It's insurance in case it does happen. As well as, of course, telling the gov't to stick it.

Same with any other weapon. It's insurance in case the worst case really happens (or some other completely unexpected where you think "wow, I never would have thought of that, really wish I had a rifle").

You'd be pulling the same stuff the anti loonies do if you make some "you'd never be justified to--" statement and you know it. It's not that hard to think of situations where you wish you had a handgun concealed on your body. Nor is it that much of a stretch to wish that, if circumstances were to work out the right way, you could have something with more power and reach.

Anybody gets mad about this is an idiot, yeah I said it.

[Leverdude]

Maybe I'm being simplistic on the issue, but wouldn't the need for a defensive response dictate the action?

If a fellow is running away from you at a distance, you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that there was an imminent danger of bodily harm.

OTOH, if he is at a distance and laying down fire in your direction, the circumstance and defensive requirement is dramatically different.

I wonder, would a combatant taking pot-shots over his shoulder, in your general direction as he ran, qualify for a rifle shot square to center-mass?

I agree with you Fwied,
I'm curious about the legal issues. The moral ones are easy. If I think your trying to hurt me I'll shoot back with the best thing I can get to & never feel guilty.

Hope I dont sound like I'm mad.

[ScottT]

Is he wrong?

It does seem far fetched to need a rifle in a purely defensive situation.

Yes, in so many ways.

I should clarify, I'm talking from a legal standpoint not a survival one.

I dont know & sure hope I never find out but in most instances I can think up I can see a prosecutor looking at a jury & explaining the Mr Prince (me) had plenty of opportunity to escape or was no longer danger & taking out mr bad guy at 50, or 100 yards was not necessary. I'm not saying I agree nor am I saying thats the only way to use a rifle defensively. I'm just saying what I'd expect to hear about such a thing.

I can imagine a hundred situations where a rifle can be used but not many that would stand up here IMO in court. Things arent the same everywhere and theres so many people here that exchanging shots at 50 or more yards can easily be deemed irresponsible & I'd think a hard action to defend in court.

But I'm just a metal worker & dont think much on those things.

Leverdude,

I understand where you are coming from. We are going to disagree on this one and that is fine, but I hate to have this string go the way of so many others. The purpose of the string was to bring this topic back to reality. If we are thinking about civil liability before personal safety, we are already behind the curve.

I also realize that the court system looks different from the inside than it does from the outside.

Rifle, pistol, shotgun, pen knife or brick......it is really all the same when you get down to it.

[ScottT]

Let's look at a situation that would make the use of the rifle purely defensive. A couple of years ago, a gentleman up in the northeast took on some hunters and killed some of them with an SKS. The hunters were armed, but apparently did not respond with gunfire.

Certainly, I think they would have been justified in shooting back at their attacker and I think the jury could only conclude that they would have been acting in self defense, regardless of the distance involved.

Now, we all heard about this situation at the time and issues were discussed right here on this board.

We could think up a variety of situations where a rifle could be used defenseively. But that is part of what I am warning against.

Another example, I have a Glock 26 in my pocket as I type this. Is a mini-Glock an offensive or defensive weapon? Well, I think it was designed as a compact defensive weapon, but if I walk out on the sidewalk and point it at someone and demand their wallet, it just became offensive. (Maybe very offensive).

My plea is, let's not think of the tool as offensive or defensive. Is a claw hammer an offensive or defensive weapon? If you think about it, it really comes down to how and why it is used....it could be either or both or it could be used to drive nails and thus not be a weapon at all. Hanging ourselves up on terminology (and pithy sayings) ignores the simple fact that we fight, if we must, with whatever happens to be at hand.

[sore shoulder]

Scott, as I recall those hunters were allegedly just out checking on their blind and only one or 2 had rifles. That incident also supports the popular beleif that people tend to freeze up in a high stress situation,instead of becoming proactive.

Obligation to retreat is one of the most cowardly legal ideas ever thought up.

As far as a weapon being defensive, that is subjective in many ways. If someone attacks me, I'm not just going to return fire, I'm attacking them back, or going on the offensive as it were, if at all possible. An attacker will not not expect this and will have a hard time transitioning from aggressor to being on the defensive. I've proven that with a few bullies in my life.

I concur completely with the "have it and not need it" mentality concerning a rifle. Because of my training, I would be much more comfortable with a carbine in any situation no matter how close the quarters may be. I only carry a pistol because it's frowned on to carry a rifle everywhere, another failure of society, succumbing to the fear of cowards.

[Old Ironsights]

...My plea is, let's not think of the tool as offensive or defensive. Is a claw hammer an offensive or defensive weapon? If you think about it, it really comes down to how and why it is used....it could be either or both or it could be used to drive nails and thus not be a weapon at all. Hanging ourselves up on terminology (and pithy sayings) ignores the simple fact that we fight, if we must, with whatever happens to be at hand.

+1.

I remember doing some training with the Oklahoma State Troopers. (about 23 years ago)

The instructor asked how the trainees would deal with a group of armed people shooting at your car.

Only one guy "got it right" (according to the instructor).

Everybody but him wanted to do a bootleg and hop out and start returning fire.

The guy that "got it right" said...

"Hit 'em at speed... THEN stop and get out of your car.

2 tonnes at 50mph has a heck of a lot more KE/TKO than a bunch of sub-200 gr bullets...

Attitude wins fights.

[ScottT]

One night we had a rather industrious man in a wheelchair that went on a crime spree. He shot and shot at a number of people and hijacked cars and robbed folks at gunpoint.

I came around a corner and there he was in the middle of the street with several patrol cars and a news crew shining lights on him. I pounded him with the front bumper of the patrol car and it took all the fight out of him. Might sound cruel, but he was not going to add another murder to his crime spree if I could help it.

[Leverdude]

Let's look at a situation that would make the use of the rifle purely defensive. A couple of years ago, a gentleman up in the northeast took on some hunters and killed some of them with an SKS. The hunters were armed, but apparently did not respond with gunfire.

Certainly, I think they would have been justified in shooting back at their attacker and I think the jury could only conclude that they would have been acting in self defense, regardless of the distance involved.

Now, we all heard about this situation at the time and issues were discussed right here on this board.

Great example!

We could think up a variety of situations where a rifle could be used defenseively. But that is part of what I am warning against.

I understand that part.

Another example, I have a Glock 26 in my pocket as I type this. Is a mini-Glock an offensive or defensive weapon? Well, I think it was designed as a compact defensive weapon, but if I walk out on the sidewalk and point it at someone and demand their wallet, it just became offensive. (Maybe very offensive).

Agreed

My plea is, let's not think of the tool as offensive or defensive. Is a claw hammer an offensive or defensive weapon? If you think about it, it really comes down to how and why it is used....it could be either or both or it could be used to drive nails and thus not be a weapon at all. Hanging ourselves up on terminology (and pithy sayings) ignores the simple fact that we fight, if we must, with whatever happens to be at hand.

Again I agree. I think alot of the fusses we have here wouldn't happen in verbal communication.

I agree as well that the most compelling issue in any fight situation is surviving & winning. Its just hard for me, & I imagine many others, to not think of the effects of the legal system on the remainder of our lives in such a case.

I those Wisconsin woods I cant see how them shooting back could be construed as anything but self defense. But thats not a very common thing. I think its much more likely that a person will be attacked per your second & hypothetical situation with the glock. In a case like that I think the fight would be over before you could get to a rifle, unless of course you were holding one.

I'm not defending the veracity of sayings like "a handgun is for fighting your way to a rifle" I'm just talking.

[rjohns94]

ScottT,

I appreciate your points and comments and think they are spot on!

blessings