The 6 O' Clock hold vs. D.O. with peeps

[86er]

CRS introduced me to the 6 O'Clock hold. I had been using the Dead On point of aim. This is with front bead and rear peep sight. Basically, I just covered what I wanted to hit with the front bead. Of course, the longer the range, the more the bead covered. I just kept in mind that the bullet would strike in the middle of whatever the bead covered. CRS told me he uses a 6 O'Clock hold where the bead is put under what you want to shoot, so the top edge of the bead is point of impact. At longer ranges you can certainly see more of the target. I am undecided. What works for you and why?

[Chuck 100 yd]

I use 6:00 hold exactly as you outlined.The front bead can be used as a simple rangefinder once you know how much it covers at a particular range, Example = it covers 8" at 100yd. it will cover 16" at 200yd. etc. Bullet drop can be accounted for in the same way,bullet hits top of bead at 100 bottom of bead at 200 etc. Split the difference for 150yd.
One needs to shoot at different distances to confirm this,not just guess.

[S.B.]

Actually, the term 6 oclock hold comes from using the 25 yard handgun target and putting the top of your front sight at the bottom of the black and then hitting the center of the X ring? Approximately 3" above the top of your front sight.

[Tycer]

6 o'clock so I can see.

[Grizz]

I've always held the bead dead on, "the bead is the bullet". I've never shot at such a long range that the bead was an obstacle to what I was aiming at. But I use a very fine bead. I've plinked out to 400 yards this way and didn't think the bead was too large.


On my single shot I have a globe front sight and for longer range I use the front aperture.

Seems like this works out past 1000 yards, though I haven't had the pleasure of that experience.

If I had to shoot something so far away that I couldn't see the target for the bead, I'd be putting a scope on the bolt gun.

[Modoc ED]

I use the 6-O'clock hold so the sight doesn't cover the target. And then there's hold-off. If your rifle shoots 2" left, hold 2" off target to the right and you're dead on center. Yep, you can adjust iron sights to hit dead on but sometimes you can drive yourself crazy tapping the sight left -- then right -- then left so just leave the sights close and hold-off.

[RKrodle]

If I'm using a blade front sight I tend to sight it in to shoot to the top of the front sight. If I'm using a bead front sight I sight in to hit in the middle of the bead. This is what seems natural to me when I put one or the other on target. I have always thought of the six o'clock hold the same as S.B.

[Griff]

6 O'clock hold. Always be sure of your target. I like to see where the bullet will impact.

[Pisgah]

The hold you describe as a 6 o'clock -- sight set so the bullet impacts at the top of the bead -- makes a much more precise aim possible than you can ever get with the "bead is the bullet" hold. Switch to a blade front sight and you'll see your groups shrink even more.

[86er]

Here' another thought - I shoot game with the 45-70 out to 200 yards with the peep sights. I am sighted in 3" high at 100 yards. In conjunction with the rangefinder, could I use 6 O'Clock hold at 100 and 125 yards where the impact is the top of the bead anyway, and hold dead on at 175 and 200 where the middle of the bead and lower third respectively is point of impact? I guess I must experiment and answer my own question - just thinking out loud here.

[Duff L Bagg]

I too use the "6 o clock hold". As a boy I did more bird hunting with a shotgun than any other type of shooting. I learned to stack the beads of the barrel and place the bird just above the front bead. So it was only natural for me to place the center of the target on top of the front sight, right or wrong it has served me well through the years.

[kimwcook]

I was taught as a young boy to use the top of the front sight as the POI.

In the Corps I was taught to use the six o'clock hold.

After being taught both systems and fortunately being able to shoot both sytems well in their respective categories I find myself preferring the top of the front sight hold for shooting with open sights. For scope/red dot, I cover the POI with the center of the reticle or dot.

[Greg807]

I always liked the way Himmelwright said it in the book Pistol and Revolver Shooting. VI o'clock hold, long and regular practice alone will give the necessary training of the senses and muscles to act in sufficient harmony to enable one to pull the trigger in this way at the right moment for a long series of shots. A "fine sympathy" must be established between the hand, the eye, and the brain, rendering them of INSTANT cooperation.

[crs]

Pigsah;
You say you use a blade front sight and I have given thought to one of those for my Win/Miroku 1886 with a Marbles tang peep sight and factory front bead.

What has worked for you and what do you recommend?

[Sixgun]

Here' another thought - I shoot game with the 45-70 out to 200 yards with the peep sights. I am sighted in 3" high at 100 yards. In conjunction with the rangefinder, could I use 6 O'Clock hold at 100 and 125 yards where the impact is the top of the bead anyway, and hold dead on at 175 and 200 where the middle of the bead and lower third respectively is point of impact? I guess I must experiment and answer my own question - just thinking out loud here.

86er,
I do most of of my hunting with open sights and limit my shooting to 200 yards. (or a bit further is everything is perfect.) I sight my leverguns in so I have a "point blank range" of say 50 yards to 200. You have to experiment a bit with this, but lets say you are using a 45-70 with a 400 grainer going 1800-2000. I don't have my notes handy, but what I would do is to have the rifle sighted in about 5-6 inches high at 100 and the bullet will have a dead-on hit at 200. Might be 4 inches low at 225.

As you know how big an elk is, I just use my standard 6 o'clock hold (the top of the bead is the impact zone) and aim that bead half way up the animal and let loose. It will get my deer or elk easily out to 200. No thinking involved--aim and shoot-------------------Sixgun ps--even easier when using flat shooting rifles--can hit out to 300 but those rifles ain't no fun.

[Griff]

Here' another thought - I shoot game with the 45-70 out to 200 yards with the peep sights. I am sighted in 3" high at 100 yards. In conjunction with the rangefinder, could I use 6 O'Clock hold at 100 and 125 yards where the impact is the top of the bead anyway, and hold dead on at 175 and 200 where the middle of the bead and lower third respectively is point of impact? I guess I must experiment and answer my own question - just thinking out loud here.

Here's how I adjust for ranges beyond my "zero" range: I use the top of the front sight as the POI for the "zero" range, (I never set a zero beyond where bullet rise if more than 3" above the line of sight); I then use the rear sight rather than portions of the front to adjust for farther distances. Since some of my hunting is with a .30-30 with standard open sights, I set my "zero" using the top of the post (or bead) at the top of the small, shallow "V" in the bottom of the buckhorn (works whether semi, half or full), then hold the front sight farther up in the buckhorn for distances farther than my "zero". I only use a tang peep, so it's marked for various ranges, starting at 100 yards. With my .45-70 Browning, I've only had one opportunity to fire at game @ 200 yards, and I must've severely under-estimated the distance, as the black bear sow was near the top of a ridge, broadside, and after jumping off the horse, taking a stance, and trying to lead her during her run, neither I, nor the game warden who was acting as my guide saw any bullet impact. Given how my .30-30s react to distances beyond 150 yards, the rainbow trajectory of the .45-70 makes the use of simply the bead or post to adjust for greater distance a chancey proposition in my opinion. ScottT has a lot more experience shooting a .45-70 using iron sights, and may have better insights into technique than I.

[El Chivo]

I'm going back to a 6:00 hold with the point of impact slightly above the flat blade. I'm shooting mostly silhouette and this is the most accurate hold for that.

For hunting, I've decided to stick to deer so I could use the same system. A bullet impacting 3" or so above the belly line would work out just fine. I might miss a small game shot but I'm not going after that with a rifle.

This is because I've noticed, now this might be my imagination, but, the globes seem to restrict light just like the peep does. I had to remove one globe for being too high and was surprised to see the plain blade more clearly. Globes also restrict field of view. So I think I'm going to switch away from globes.

This year I'm going to try hunting with a scope, so most of my shooting will be silhouette. I've had eyestrain problems and hopefully this will help.

[Jaguarundi]

Allways six'oclock hold for ironsighted bolt,lever and sixgun for me.Easier with practice for reflex shooting.I use for hunting and target.

[GANJIRO]

My dad who shot expert in the Army with both M1 & 1911 taught me over 42 years ago to use the 6 0'Clock hold so that's what I use.
Thanks Dad.

[colo native]

Punkin on tha post, (6 o'clock hold)

[TedH]

I use the 6 o'clock hold. I don't care for beads, so most all mine are narrow post type front sights. Sight them in so the bullet hits at the top of the post.

[gcs]

I guess I'm in the minority, I've always used a bead and sight it dead on.

Just seemed more natural, and faster, to put a round bead into the center of a round hole.
Of course, 99.9% of my shots are under 100 yds., and it's all game shooting.

With the Williams Firesite , the bead is so small it really doesn't obscure the target much at all.

[Grizz]

I guess I'm in the minority, I've always used a bead and sight it dead on.

Just seemed more natural, and faster, to put a round bead into the center of a round hole.
Of course, 99.9% of my shots are under 100 yds., and it's all game shooting.

With the Williams Firesite , the bead is so small it really doesn't obscure the target much at all.

Me too. I wonder if the folks who have trouble with bead size covering a target area are shooting with one eye closed.

For the dead-on hold to work both eyes have to be open and the bead superimposed over the picture generated by both eyes.

I can't get this to work right using a blade front sight with a peep, but my peep is smaller than any of the blades I've seen.

[Pisgah]

Pigsah;
You say you use a blade front sight and I have given thought to one of those for my Win/Miroku 1886 with a Marbles tang peep sight and factory front bead.

What has worked for you and what do you recommend?

All my 336s wear Ted Cash silver blade front sights I bought from Dixie Gunworks -- very inexpensive. I buy them as blanks, which allow plenty of material so that I can file them to whatever height I need and shape I want.

Item #EP1402

[J Miller]

I started shooting so long ago I've forgotten who told me how to use the sights.
But ... my first rifles had open barrel mounted iron sights and I learned on them. Next came the mil-surps and their military aperture sights, and I relearned on them.
Then came the .22 rifle shooting league I got into with their aperture target sights. Identical in function to the military sights.
Then came the merging of the two.
AND THEN came the handguns. So being the simpleton I am I developed a sight picture that works with ALL of them. For me anyway.

No insults intended to those who use their bead sights as the bullet, but ...
First off if I can't "see" my target I "can't" hit it. So covering the target with the bead sight makes no sense to me. "The bead is the bullet", is b.s. to me.
It's more like "The bead is the barricade".
Early on I tried to shoot like that and could not hit anything. I was with a group one day and one of the guys asked me where I had my gun sighted in at. I told him and he said I should adjust the sight so the bullet hit just above the top of the front sight.
Well, that did it. I could see my target, just put the front sight under it and hit it. Worked great.
So I adopted that sight picture for all my different sights. Bead, blade, post, sourdough, and then used the appropriate rear sight hold and I was in business.

The only problem I've found is as I've gotten older the bead front sight, and the bullseye merge into a blurry figure "8" image and I loose my ability to control the elevation. So I've moved to post or blade front sights and aperture rear sights.

And that's where I'm staying. At my age and level of cantankerousness I steadfastly refuse to scope any lever action rifle that I own. I even have my Marlin MR-7 at the gunsmith as I type this having barrel sights put on it. If they work good, it just might loose it's scope in favor of good old fashioned low tech, solid metal sights.


Joe

[Modoc ED]

Right on Joe.

[Jayhawker]

I've always used the dead on hold, but in all my years of hunting, I don't think I've ever taken a shot more than 125 yards either. I started that method while very young, and the Navy didn't do anything to break that habit. Actually, the Navy gave me a toolbox and didn't care if I knew how to shoot or not, that's what the Marines were for.

[KirkD]

I used the dead on hold for many years. In recent years, I've changed to the 6 o'clock hold and I won't be going back. In my opinion, the 6 o'clock hold is much more useful than the dead-on hold.

[Bigahh]

Excellent Post! This has been my problem with a Winchester of mine. I will re-sight the gun in this week! Have only used a peep sight for 3 weeks, but the 6 oclock hold makes sense to me.

[jnyork]

Bigahh, this article may be of help to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sight#Aperture_sights

[Pete44ru]

["the bead is the bullet". ] +1

I only use a 6 o'clock hold when I'm shooting bullseye targets with one of my pistols.

[Old Savage]

I always use the 6 0'clock hold - I think it is more precise.

[Charles]

When shooting at targets I use the 6 O'Clock hold with the top of the blade or bead at the bottom of the bull in the 6 O'Clock position.

When I sight a rifle for field use, I slide the bullet accross the top of the blade or bead at the chosen distance. If the range is shorter or longer, I hold under or over on the target.

[Bigahh]

Bigahh, this article may be of help to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sight#Aperture_sights

Thank You jnYork, it is very helpful, and a good read for this beginner!

[Bruce Scott]

As I understand it, six o'clock hold is a target shooting term use to describe the six o'clock position of the bull being used as the point of aim to get a strike in the centre of the bull.



It is considered a more repeatable index than centering on the bullseye.

[bj94]

Bead or post, I use the top center as the point of impact. Except when shooting NRA highpower rifle competition and in that case I use true 6-oclock hold with a post.

For target shooting, I've read where some people use center hold, and there are even variations on the 6oclcok hold. Depending on your eyesight and the size of your front post, you might prefer one over the other. I think most people use the true 6oclock hold and it works best for me too.

[Hobie]

I cover the target (POA) with a bead and bisect it with a post. The bead is relatively lacking in precision compared to the post because it is more difficult for the eye to consistently place it in relation to the target than it is for the eye to place the post. Sometimes a 6 o'clock hold is appropriate. I have used it in competition (with post) due to the lighting conditions on the range. It was easier to consistently align the black post with the black bull on the target.

[Old Ironsights]

... For the dead-on hold to work both eyes have to be open and the bead superimposed over the picture generated by both eyes. ...

That only works if you actually have binocular vision... I don't.

I use Peep & Post. (bisecting like Hobie) Too dang much Mitary Training.

[Grizz]

... For the dead-on hold to work both eyes have to be open and the bead superimposed over the picture generated by both eyes. ...

That only works if you actually have binocular vision... I don't.

I use Peep & Post. (bisecting like Hobie) Too dang much Mitary Training.

OK that makes sense. Are you right eye or left eye dominant? My wife shoots right handed but is left eye dominant, so she also doesn't have binocular vision. But, you could try shooting the other way from what you're used to and see if you can develop binocular vision.

It takes some practice but sometimes switching to the opposite hand helps with rifles. Oddly it doesn't seem to help as much with handguns because the sight picture doesn't change as much.

It's a thought anyway!

[71fan]

I cover the target (POA) with a bead and bisect it with a post. The bead is relatively lacking in precision compared to the post because it is more difficult for the eye to consistently place it in relation to the target than it is for the eye to place the post. Sometimes a 6 o'clock hold is appropriate. I have used it in competition (with post) due to the lighting conditions on the range. It was easier to consistently align the black post with the black bull on the target.

+1 - I'm right there with you...

Beads are dead on and used for close in hunting, shooting, or plinking, generally under 100 yards.

For paper groups or hunting conditions where I might need up to 200, I use a post and bisect my target.

My pistol caliber levers and 22s have beads, my rifle caliber levers used for big game have posts.

That's the way my eyes and brain work, and I have no reason to fight it. If I see a bead sight the target gets covered, if I see a post, the POI is the top of the post.

[Old Ironsights]

...It's a thought anyway!

Thanks for the thought.

But I'm ambliopic. Myleft eye is good only for the grossest form of aiming.

THink "Unforgiven" when Clint gives up his sixgun practice for a 12ga.

[Jarhead]

I use my 6, but with a scope dead on for obvious reasons. When hunting Elk in the timber...I aim fast and instinctively with my "bolt peep" 71 " Carbine.... don't have time to worry about my 6...