winchester 1894, year 1900

[jphi13]

hi all,
after a long time not posting but nonetheless actively reading this forum, I am confronted to the urge to add a new item to my Winchester collection.
I have come across an auction for a 1894 rifle in 38-55 dated 1900, with a 26" round barrel:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/WINCHESTER-1894 ... 34746.html

The gun has obviously been refinished.
The absence of the winchester proof mark on the receiver is consistent with the year of manufacture.
The p in oval stamp on the barrel seems to signify a winchester factory mail order barrel. Furthermore the stamping on the breech end means that this re-barrelling was done by Carl "Bill" Morrison, a renowned gunsmith in Maine.
there is no other marking on the barrel.
My question is:
Is it possible that a factory mail order barrel has no stamp other than the proof ? (like Winchester New haven, nickel steel, proof steel...etc...)
does this gun retain some collecting value knowing that in Europe refinishing a gun does not impair its value so much... and that the gunsmith who performed the rebarelling has good records.
thank you winchester gurus for your opinion!
jphi

[Sixgun]

jphi,
Here's my thoughts. I was going to say the barrel was a non factory barrel that was fitted to your '94, but like you said, the circle over the "P" shows it to be a real deal Winchester barrel.

The barrel is Winchester but it has been heavily buffed which eliminated the barrel address and name. These letters were much lighter in stamping and are easily rusted or polished away. The "38--------55" stamping on the barrel is not original. You will notice that I used a long hyphen between the numbers, the same as yours is stamped. The numbers also do not appear to be in a straight line which shows me that it was hand stamped.

I believe that at one time, the gun was heavily rusted and it took a lot of polishing to get it off, which resulted in all of the markings being eliminated. No barrels left the factory without the Winchester name and address, plus caliber markings.

Get yourself a screwdriver and take off the forend cap, the magazine tube, and the pin that holds the magazine retainer. Remove the wood and you will see markings under the barrel, including the original caliber, right next to the receiver. Most likely, these were not buffed off as this area usually does not get rusty.

Sorry to say, but the wood looks to be replaced also. No big deal, you still have a nice '94.

Are you from Germany? I still have an uncle over there.------------Sixgun

.

[jphi13]

thank you sixgun for your wise deductions and the key information about the mail order barrels I needed.
Unfotunately this winchester is not yet mine, it is only a prospect to cure my itch for a new winchester levergun. maybe Carl Morrison may give us the clue about this barrel, I have read that he is still around and working in Bradford, near Bangor, Maine. maybe he has some records and he is said to have a tremendously good memory. I really doubt he has an e-mail address, maybe one of the forum members has direct relations with him, Otherwise I will have to pass on this one, even if early 1894 26" rifles are scarce here.
Anyway it is always interesting looking at the old winchesters, it is like a detective investigation, with all the marks, model variations and transformations.

Here is another one I find interesting :

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-mod-18 ... 43394.html

This is a 1910 model 1894 "eastern" carbine in 30wcf, but with a crescent stock. Everything seems original on this one.
The blue on the barrel looks good, but the patchy discoloration on the receiver puzzles me. The rear sight is not a carbine sight. Stock and sight may be factory custom fittings.
thanks in advance for your comments !

[Sixgun]

Here we go again! That eastern carbine had the stock changed. Its ill fitting as guns in those days were fitting tight to the metal. The receiver is "right" as the case hardening on the metal kept the bluing from penetrating the metal and easily wore off, hence the deeper blue of the barrel/mag tube. Without a close inspection, the mag tube/mag. may have been cold blued.

You see that picture of the cartridges? That headstamp puts the year of manufacture before 1930!

Here in the states, that gun would bring about $500.-------------Sixgun

[Griff]

Rear sight maybe a home modification also. Looks right, just w/o the "ears" for the semi-buckhorn.

[FatJackDurham]

Wow. Profs. Sixgun and Griff just took us all to school on analyzing online autions... Like Sherlock Holmes!

[jphi13]

hi, This little homework is definitely very useful ! I hope that other forumers find it as refreshing as I do. thanks for sharing your expertise.
Just to fuel up the debate :
Concerning the first auction, I agree that the wood has been stripped, bleached and re-colored.
For the second one, I am not sure. the upper right corner is chipped, it may have been lightly sanded and revarnished but I do not see, at least with my unexpert eye and with the resolution of the photos, any worse than, as an example, this :

http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/RiflesPage2.htm

maybe if some of you have good examples of what details to look for and what to avoid.. this would provide invaluable to people like me with limited knowledge...

shoot!

[twobit]

Hello,

I will add a few thing and clarify a few statements made so far.

The first rifle is well within the range for which the original production ledgers exist for the Model 1894 and are housed in the Cody Firearms Museum. With the extent of the alteration and re-barrel of this gun you never know what it started out as. Yes the wood has been obviously refinished. It should fit as in the attached photo below. Personally, for almost $1700 or more I would pass on the gun. There are too many things not correct with it. There is a vast difference in retained value for a expertly refinished rifle and one that is as poor as this one. Though both are still not what an original rifle is worth.


I would not consider the second rifle to be an "eastern carbine". The butt stock and receiver are definitely from a sporting rifle and I believe the barrel is cut down from a sporting rifle configuration. The rear sight dovetail is in a sporting rifle position not what would be a standard carbine position located much closer to the receiver face. The barrel address is also located in the wrong position. The address is always located to the left of the barrel band between it and the rear sight. As in the two images attached. The forward barrel band is not the style used coincident with the serial number of the rifle either. Again the wood is refinished and the bluing has been buffed off of the receiver which was not case hardened initially. Case hardening and bluing are two very different processes. Again, due to the extent of the alteration I would pass on the gun.




The third gun. I would definitely ask for detail photos of the barrel address and other stamps on the gun. The condition of the receiver is a total mismatch with what the barrel looks like. The wood has been refinished also. A rifle should "age" more consistently across all of its surfaces. If the receiver has no original finish left and the wood needed to be refinished then the barrel should show more wear than this one apparently has. Again, I wouldn't start spending any money until more info is known.

Thanks
Michael

[jphi13]

wow !
now that's a lesson !
thanks Michael for the pic showing the wood to frame fit.
I did not think of a cut-up rifle. I will definitely pass on those two. I'd rather buy a very used one rather than one that has been excessively tempered with. Here you cannot find an original pre-64 at less than €1000.00 and some want to sell a real mess for a lot more. that's because there were so few imported.
It's too bad that it is so hard and expensive to import an old levergun from the U.S.
Maybe it is easier from Canada ? I do not know.

Tomorrow I will post photos of the two '92 I bought a few years back... I am already afraid of what I will read...

Jphi

[twobit]

jph13 wrote:

Here you cannot find an original pre-64 at less than €1000.00 and some want to sell a real mess for a lot more. that's because there were so few imported.

That is exactly why you will see what you are seeing. The ability to turn junk into euros will make people cheat others to make a dollar/euro. Feel free to ask me about any gun before you purchase it. I will be glad to help.

One other point about the first gun I forgot to mention. When it was reblued the hammer and lever were also blued. This is wrong for the time period of the gun. Both the hammer and lever were originally case hardened and should look more like the hammer and lever in the wood fit detail photo I posted above. Notice how they are different than the receiver. It wasn't until after approximately 1915 the hammer and lever were blued like the receiver.

I will be glad to take a look at the 1892/92 rifles for you. I am conducting a research survey of that model and have cataloged just a few over 5000 rifles. I have probably seen all the variations out there. You can read some about the work at these links:
1892 Survey
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... ey#p343093
http://www.winchestercollector.org/foru ... php?t=3460
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=606355

Michael

[jphi13]

OK, this is my first 1892 I bought 5 years back,
A sporting rifle dated 1903 I think
barrel is rough at some places but rifling is there. optimal reloading not found yet, shoots OK, like 4 inches at 50m (55yards) but the barrel is very large : slugs at .431+ !!!

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[jphi13]

next photos :

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That is all for today
Your comments are welcome. It's my old favorite, but I like to know the truth !

JPhi

[twobit]

jph13,

First look: It is all correct. I will look closer later today.

I edited the first reply above with a few new comments on the barrel address placement and some photos.
You might also get a kick out of reading about the survey in my second post.

GREAT job on the photos!!!

Thanks
Michael

[twobit]

jph13,

Your rifle is a 1904 vintage sporting rifle. The wood has been sanded and refinished. Notice how you can see the edge of the metal along the side of the upper tang. The wood should actually be just a little bit above the metal surface. Besides that the rifle is all correct for it's SN range. One small detail is that there is a group of about 10,000 rifles in the SN range on which the upper tang does not have a period, like yours, at the end of the upper and lower lines of print. The small numbers on either side of the lever are inspectors stamps which were applied at the time the rifle was being assembled.

Let me know if you any specific questions.
Thanks
Michael

[1894c]

i stand, actually i "sit" in awe, this has been a GREAT thread...learned allot... :)

[jphi13]

Round 2
The 1892 SRC
has certainly undergone a major overhaul in the past, following heavy wood mildew and rusting, which included rebluing of many parts and heavy sanding of the stock.
This is a shooter though, with a rather good bore and a very tight yet smooth mechanism.

I guess there will be much more to say on this one

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[jphi13]

next photos of the SRC

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[twobit]

Hello,

Sorry for the delay. I was busy all day and just got back home.

Not every gun can be a collectors gem. We all collect for different reasons, likes, dislikes, checkbook size, and what ever makes us happy.
One guys gem may not turn another guys head but who cares. As long as you enjoy the hunt and then owning the rifle afterward. That is
what is important.

This SRC was manufactured during 1909. The receiver was serialized on the 5th of November which was a Saturday! OMG people actually used to work on "weekends"???!!! While the rifle has obviously been refinished nothing on the gun has been replaced or switched. The most interesting feature on the rifle is the tang stamp style. On my survey I refer to it as a Type 2A. This is the same stamp which Madis called the 'export stamp' but that is not correct. I have documented 81 rifles with the same stamp and not one of them has foreign proof stamps on the rifle. In addition, the exact same stamp was used on the Model 1890 slide action .22 caliber rifles but apparently not for export? I am not knocking George. He did great work in a time when yellow legal pads and #2 pencils ruled the world. This is the least used tang stamp style on the Model 1892 rifles. It is sometimes found without the small MOD 1892 stamped transverse to the tang. It is also interesting that in this serial number range the 44WCF caliber is the least produced.

The wood took the brunt of most of the refinishing on this gun. All of the stamped writing is still crisp and there is no evidence of the gun having been buffed prior to bluing. Can you please post a photo of the proof stamps on the rifle? They are the first signs of a rifle having been buffed. The lever and hammer are blued and this is incorrect for this serial number range. They would have been originally case hardened but are now the same finish as the receiver.

Michael

[twobit]

30 WCF wrote:

i stand, actually i "sit" in awe, this has been a GREAT thread...learned allot...

Oh heck just don't sit there. Grab a cold beer and lets talk about these rifles. The more you talk
and look the more you learn. Glad you enjoyed the post.

Michael

[jphi13]

30 WCF wrote:

i stand, actually i "sit" in awe, this has been a GREAT thread...learned allot...

Oh heck just don't sit there. Grab a cold beer and lets talk about these rifles. The more you talk
and look the more you learn. Glad you enjoyed the post.

Michael

Well said,

We have the chance to have friendly specialists on this forum, their knowledge is invaluable. Please post the pics of your rifles, let's keep on enjoying their expertise !

JPhi

[jphi13]

Michael,

this is all very interesting info.
In 1909 I think only Sundays were non-working days, and work hours were a lot longer; These were hard times...

I feel the barrel and receiver have been buffed because the first line of the address markings is faint and the proof stamps are really slight too, as well as the nice special marking on the proximal part of the upper tang.
the photos were not as easy to make as for the rifle, but you can see the two proof marks on top of the barrel and the receiver.

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the barrel bands have small pits under the blueing.
The stock was sanded so deep that the back plate is now too large

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JPhi

[twobit]

jphi13,

I think the very shallow proof stamps are just a result of the normal wear with that part of the gun which is the normal carry point. The slight unevenness of the upper line on the barrel address is fairly common. Based on all the rifles I have looked at I would still say yours has not been buffed but rather has had a cold blue put on the surface with little preparation.

Michael

[Malamute]

It may or may not have been cold blued (perhaps a different question in its own right). I'm not an expert by any means, but I believe it's possible to hot blue without buffing. I asked a gunsmith about buffing a gun he was working on, and he said he didn't unless the finish grade wasn't matching. I mentioned it to another old time gunsmith that I wanted to blue the bolt on a rifle for me, he said it had to be buffed, I said "go ahead and try it without buffing, I'll pay you however it turns out". It came out fine, he said he was surprised, he thought they had to be buffed before blueing for the blue to take (and he'd been doing it for decades).

The buffing is the downfall of most refinishes. Properly done its nearly impossible to tell, poorly done, it seriously degrades the gun. Sad that so many probably didnt have to be buffed and ruined.

[Hagler]

Gents,

I bought a Winchester 94, made in 1976. Its receiver was pockmarked, and the bluing was eaten away. I wanted to clean it up, but I decided to give it a used appearence. I carefully sanded the recever, with progressively finer paper, and I stripped only the peeling finish, from the stocks. I did not take away, or add any, color to the wood. The receiver is the only metal that I had to reblue. The barrel was left, as I found it. I used Birchwood-Casey Super Blue, and the wood was Tru-Oiled. I carefully avoided the proofmark & the serial number. Here are some pictures, to illustrate what a cheap refinishing can look like:

Before:



After









These images are too tall for this forum, so click the link, to see the photos:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k185/ ... eft250.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k185/ ... dright.jpg

Shawn

[jphi13]

Wow, nice work on this modern 94 ! It looks way better even than new !

Regarding my 1892 SRC, I am pretty sure the barrel was not hot blued. It may have been re-blued but a long time ago, as the color has already tuned a brownish hue with time. What's sure is that the lever, the barrel bands and the hammer have been re-blued. The wood was heavily sanded and darkend at places.
Are there any other photos I could shoot to help ?
Anyway, I can see both my 1892 from where I type, they look darn good, and I know for a fact that they will make noise on Sunday morning !

JPhi

[PriseDeFer]

What a wonderful conversation, a pleasure to listen in. Hagler, I hope your excellent photographs of the 1976 receiver are widely viewed. You have proven that skilled and careful handwork beats a buffing wheel most soundly.

[Hagler]

Thanks for the nice comments. I found a couple more pictures of that rifle:

After I took it apart:



The lever link, after I filed & sanded out someone's initials (still visible, under the right viewing conditions, though):



Shawn