OT-Are We All Too Fat?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:04 pm

Dudes & Fellow Shootists,
I don't like to get into these OT discussions, but the thread below (about whether criminals are more violent today) really got my little brain working overtime. This morning, while casting bullets, I got to thinking about society's ills. I really have not heard this issue discussed on the board before, but I think we all are too FAT as Americans.

By fat, I mean too much money and opportunity. As a kid growing up, NOBODY in the neighborhood had more than 1 car per household and I came from a working class/semi-professional neighborhood. My father was a machine operator and did pretty good, but...........I worked on a paper route just so I could buy a bike.(and I had better take care of it!) Two pairs of pants had to last me the school year as did ONE pair of shoes. We had a garden because we needed it. Vacations were a week up at a jointly owned primitive hunting cabin. You get my drift. This was growing up in the late fifties and sixties. I am 53. My parents who grew up in the thirties had nothing but a place to sleep and food. No luxuries.

Today, a poor kid has $150 sneakers. 16 year old kids have $20,000 cars. They vacation in the Bahamas or Mexico. Many households have three cars. Even a peon forklift driver like myself has a mess of nice classic guns and I cut grass with a tractor that costs as much as a car.

Knowledgable people tell me that minority families were closer knit than white families until welfare came along.

The mind wanders on todays youths (and adults) on how they can "get excited". Maybe this country needs a meltdown to bring us all together again like it was with the Greatest Generation.----------Sixgun

Jayhawker · Post by **Jayhawker** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:29 pm

Let's hope we don't really need a meltdown to get there. Interesting point though.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:48 pm

Life sure has changed. My dad's "Uncle" George was the ne'er-do-well who owned "all the guns" (this in the 1920-40 time period). Those being TWO guns, a Remington Model 8 .35 Rem and a Fox-Sterlingworth 12 ga. double which he bought NEW. TWO, NEW guns in his whole life and he was considered a profilgate, spendthrift who was rightly a bachelor as no woman could control a selfish hedonist like him.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:12 pm

Kids and cars are a pet peeve of mine. I have a high school that they built 1/2 a mile from my house. I see kids going in there every day with nicer cars and trucks than my wife and have and we're not poor. I don't care who you are a 17 year old kid has nonbusiness driving a $40,000 4WD pickup.

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:14 pm

I tend to agree. I believe a lot of it is false affluence. How much of that is actually owned in some form of credit? Many people have sold their souls, so to speak, in order to keep up with the Jones.

Also, I hate to say it but with such a hedonistic generation a meltdown would bring riots like we have never seen. I don't believe it would bring people together, it would do the opposite.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:12 pm

My Dad was a Career Navy man and we grew up poor. Had food and shelter and I also had a paper route for awhile. Also worked on a cattle ranch when I became old enough to (15-17) We had a garden, etc..when we could.. I joined the Marines when I was 17 and did not get my first Car until I was 20 years old and out of the "Crotch." (USMC) A 1950 Plymouth 2 Dr Coupe. Paid $75.00 for it. That car was so cool...believe it or not I still have it.

I always wanted a Norton Commando when I was 16...bought one when I was 40 quite a few years ago...now I have 4 motorcycles...Norton, BSA, Triumph, and a 2003 Harley Davidson. Life is good! 15 rifles and a Trophy room full of Big Game animals...God Bless America! I work out 5-6 days a week and I'm not fat!

Physically anyway

And 100% debt free...It's all about choices. Have two very beautiful and responsible daughters who by the way, started out in used cars with Dad's help...Glad I was able to help them out.

I started out with nothing....a PVT in the Marine Corps making $80 a month. Combat pay was $65 a month

If I remember correctly?

I think every kid(boys anyway) should have to serve their country, especially the rich ones!! Teaches them to appreciate what they have...and that the world does not spin around them...They should not be allowed to own a car until they have served thier country...earn it!

I feel very fortunate to have lived during the times I have...even through the Vietnam War....Taught me that the world does not spin around me and that you have to work hard....some people inherit their wealth and lack character....those are the people I have a problem with.

Now that I am older, I relize that I can't take all that stuff with me and will probably down size some as far as Motorcycles go...won't sell my 50 Duece Coupe or my rifles....Daughters get that stuff and one motorcycle.

What's wrong is the "Liberals" They let thier kids do what ever they want..Also, America's youth have been educated by socialist teachers and thier parents....who were also educated by socialist teachers and so on...

Parents are fat...eat donuts, big macs, etc. and don't exercise...watch TV and play video games....Parents let thier kids have new Cars, etc. without teaching the next generation a work ethic.

All that said, I still think there are some very fine young people out there, especially those that are now serving in "Harms Way," so that the we can enjoy the freedoms that we do have..let's just hope that the Liberals don't take all that away someday.

Yep, people are too busy trying to keep up with the Jones types and want to live in a big fancy house and drive big fancy cars and trucks...pay for it on time and let thier kids run in the streets...too busy working and paying off all that debt. Now they are loosing thier homes and want the Government to bail them out! DumB Sh&Ts !!

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:47 pm

I think alot of people try to live above their means. The "Keeping up with the Jones'" is alot of the problem. I go to work every day (12 hour shift) and come home in the evening in an 06 Chevy 2500HD Duramax (Diesel is now $4.09 a gallon so it's soon going to be a moped) to the house I just started paying for last May. If you're going to have anything this day and time you're going to be in debt for a little while. Most all of my guns and toys were bought and paid for when I was single.

I work with a guy who actually can not afford to miss a shift. Why? He says he wants to give his kids what he didn't have growing up. Is there anything wrong with that? Do his kids respect/love him anymore? I think he's in for a rude awakening when his kids get older.

I for one don't see giving a kid (sixteen-eighteen) a new car or truck to drive to high school. I drove a 69 Stepside 1/2ton Chevy to school my senior year after two years of blood sweat and tears finally putting it back together. I still have that truck after close to 10 years after I graduated. Anymore I think people flaunt, and want to have a status symbol more than letting their word and personal honor do that for them.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:50 pm

I agree that we're all quite wealthy, however, it's just that society has gotten quite good at producing goods. So it gives us a sense that we're working for ourselves, not the bosses.

I was raised lower middle class, we took a vacation every ten years whether we needed one or not. Annually we went to a Holiday Inn for a weekend to swim in the pool. I still make one pair of shoes last all year, and two pairs of pants. But that's just habit.

I think it's great because we can live out our dreams, more or less. When I was a young musician it was a pipe dream to own your own multitrack studio, now everybody has one on their computer. I've made three albums with myself playing all the instruments. Lots of fun, but, more importantly, it's a stage of personal growth. I can die happy that I accomplished the things I wanted to do rather than wish I had done them.

It does take focus away from family, but we all have our choices to make.

cas · Post by **cas** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:53 pm

Well Im all for taking the old Winchesters away from the fork lift drivers.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

bigbore442001 wrote:I tend to agree. I believe a lot of it is false affluence. How much of that is actually owned in some form of credit? Many people have sold their souls, so to speak, in order to keep up with the Jones.

That's a big part of it right there! At least it is with a lot of the folks I know.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:37 pm

I own all my stuff,in high school I worked in my mothers construction company, in college I worked in a machine shop,I am just finishing a run with a fortune 500 company from which I will retire.
Like Hobie's uncle, I am the hedonist, no woman would have anything to do with.
I don't have any children, so I have no first hand knowledge; but the ones I see today are a scruffy looking bunch.
I will build ( at least ) 1 more house with my hands! Imagine that! Physical labor! in this day and age!
As to the question of fat, and the others expressing something in the air or bad times coming soon, I think what we are seeing is quite natural, technology is increasing exponentially, and those of us with 4-5 decades under the belt,are not as fast as we once were, the new gunslinger has a cell phone , not a Colt. It is change, not one I would condone; but change none the less.Nothing is static, change IS the only constant

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:49 pm

mescalero1 wrote:I own all my stuff,in high school I worked in my mothers construction company, in college I worked in a machine shop,I am just finishing a run with a fortune 500 company from which I will retire.
Like Hobie's uncle, I am the hedonist, no woman would have anything to do with.
I don't have any children, so I have no first hand knowledge; but the ones I see today are a scruffy looking bunch.
I will build ( at least ) 1 more house with my hands! Imagine that! Physical labor! in this day and age!
As to the question of fat, and the others expressing something in the air or bad times coming soon, I think what we are seeing is quite natural, technology is increasing exponentially, and those of us with 4-5 decades under the belt,are not as fast as we once were, the new gunslinger has a cell phone , not a Colt. It is change, not one I would condone; but change none the less.Nothing is static, change IS the only constant

That's what I like to hear! A self made man who's not afraid of hard work! My hats off to ya! I went to college on the GI bill and retired from a big corporation as well. Didn't enjoy the Corporate life, but it was a means to an end. Also, plan on building a log Cabin from scratch on my land...
Keeps a feller from getting a big GUT!

No girl friend???

Just Jiven ya Bro! They are expensive!! I'd sleep with my rifle like I did in the Corps, but my wife's a lot warmer...and she loves to ride on the back of my Harley

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:50 pm

I'm probably the youngest poster here, or at least one of the youngest, and I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Not that I'm not entirely without guilt when it comes to overconsumption. I'm sure I own more stuff than someone my age 50 years ago would have been able to. Still, I own a lot less stuff than most people my own age. Some things are hard to get by without these days. Try functioning in society without a computer and internet connection. The things break every few years, or go obsolete, and you have to buy a new one. Quite a racket. Same with more than one car per household. It's almost impossible to get by on one income these days, which makes two cars a necessity.

What is interesting, is that it's easier now for a twentysomething to own a lot of stuff, but not things that are actually important, like a house.

I have my expensive hobbies (hunting, shooting, and fishing isn't cheap) but I'm not so interested in the status symbols (Hummer H2, 52" flat screen). I figure if I'm going to burn $$, I may as well burn it on that which facilitates me doing something rather than sitting.

I'm also making choice to change jobs which will lead to about 10k less per year in pay. I'm doing this because I'm getting married soon and my current job will put me on the road more often than not. I'd rather live minimally and be with those I love, than be separated from them and have an excess for toys I'm never home to enjoy.

I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this post. I guess I just felt the need to chime in since it is my generation being (justifiably) criticized.

Mojo · Post by **Mojo** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:03 pm

bigbore442001 wrote:I tend to agree. I believe a lot of it is false affluence. How much of that is actually owned in some form of credit? Many people have sold their souls, so to speak, in order to keep up with the Jones.

You hit the nail on the head. Our entire economy is built on credit and one day the whole thing will come tumbling down just like the house of cards that it is. When I was a kid growing up everything was cash on the barrel head. My family hardly knew what a credit card was until the mid-seventies. I grew up in the 60's and 70's and if I needed money I would work mowing lawns, washing cars, trimming hedges or whatever and it wasn't for $20 or $30 either. I charged $1 for a car wash and $3 to mow a lawn ($5 if it was a BIG yard). My first job came in 1974 working at a television repair shop for $1 an hour and I had to ride my bike the three miles to and from work. I'm now 48 years old and for the first time in my life am just beginning to understand the meaning behind the stories my mother would tell me about how life was growing up in rural Georgia during the depression. My father had just as many stories about growing up around a blacksmith's shop and small cheese factory in rural Wisconsin during the same period. They always provided fodder for jokes and laughter when I was a child but now have a completely different view of things. That sort of thing is what builds character. You learned early on what values are, how to respect your elders, how to behave in public, what a dollar is and what it takes to earn it. In the days of my parents being in debit was the equal of being poor. Not anymore. These days it seems like kids just expect things to be handed to them. They don't see their parents working from sunrise to sunset and most of them certainly don't know what it is to have to work for that pair Nike's or Playstation that they want. I guess my point is that you worked for money to buy the things you needed rather than use a piece of plastic to buy the things that you want and there is a BIG difference between needs and wants. It's just a part of our consequence free society that we have today.

DerekR · Post by **DerekR** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:13 pm

When I was a kid, my Grandparents had a fish camp on the Amite River in Louisiana. There were people there, friends of my Grandparents, that worked only enough to buy food, beer and fishbait. They seemed like very happy people. I think they may have had something figured out that escapes most of the people in this country today.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:17 pm

Jason said;

Same with more than one car per household. It's almost impossible to get by on one income these days, which makes two cars a necessity.

I was reading not long ago an article that adressed the 2 paycheck phenomenin & this thread might be a good place to toss it out & see what others think.
The author opined, & I agree to a degree that in todays world both parents dont need to work. Not in reality anyway.
We only both need to work to afford these same excesses the thread is about.

Think about it.
If you only had one car, IF you only had the clothes & shoes you NEED, IF you didn't have 5 TV's & cable/satalite/hi Def hook up, IF you didn't need internet acess & a computer (or 3) IF you didn't need a room for every child, IF you didn't need that bike or boat, IF you didn't NEED 2 or 3 or 20 or 50 guns, If you didn't need to pay day care or summer camp.
If we really only bought what we need I think we could get by fine on one income. After all, theoretically anyway, incomes increase closely with inflation.
I think to a large degree the issues are of our own making & Sixgun is right, we are fat.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:56 pm

I suppose I could throw some perspective into this:

My wife has a chronic illness and has been hospitalized 3 times since we were married - once for over a month with an additional 3 months of rehab.

We live in a $69K zero-lot-line Condo/Townhome.

I have a 1999 Ford Escort Wagon, bought for $4K cash, that just replaced a 1995 Mercury Tracer Wagon - bought for $3K cash.

I have a TV... in the basement... with no antenna, satellite or cable. I think it still works.

We spend, in the Chicago-area economy, roughly $150/mo on food & sundries and eat quite decently (I love Aldi)... We pay more than that for Utilities (phone/Gas/Electric).

And this is the first year since I was married in 1993 that I have actually broken $35K gross... (up from $26K gross and less than $20K in '03) so, yeah I'm pretty much up to my eyeballs. But it's not from living Phat.

Someday I hope that the $40K "degree" I've got capitalizing at 8.5% will pay for itself, but until then I'll just keep working at office monkey jobs until I find/get hired for somthing more lucrative.

I'd be estatic to Net my age... I'd be able to pay off the $100K+ I owe to various places in about 6 years. Of course, it will likely all vaporate when the economy collapses in 2-4...

You do what you've got to do to make ends meet AND still have some sort of hobby/friends or you go insane.

Which means, in my case, an ISP for Leverguns.com (friends) and a small but usefull collection of guns to shoot & reload for - neither of which I can really "afford" but are absolutely necessary to keep me from going sideways.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:14 pm

Jarhead,
How come you won the lottery and did not tell anyone?
I work with a guy who said his wife, when he was dating her LOVED to ride on his Harley, then; after they got married; never got on it again.
He asked me if I thought he could sue her for false advertising.
I told him if he tried, he was a @!#$% fool!

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:59 pm

Leverdude wrote:Jason said;

Same with more than one car per household. It's almost impossible to get by on one income these days, which makes two cars a necessity.
I was reading not long ago an article that adressed the 2 paycheck phenomenin & this thread might be a good place to toss it out & see what others think.
The author opined, & I agree to a degree that in todays world both parents dont need to work. Not in reality anyway.
We only both need to work to afford these same excesses the thread is about.

Think about it.
If you only had one car, IF you only had the clothes & shoes you NEED, IF you didn't have 5 TV's & cable/satalite/hi Def hook up, IF you didn't need internet acess & a computer (or 3) IF you didn't need a room for every child, IF you didn't need that bike or boat, IF you didn't NEED 2 or 3 or 20 or 50 guns, If you didn't need to pay day care or summer camp.
If we really only bought what we need I think we could get by fine on one income. After all, theoretically anyway, incomes increase closely with inflation.
I think to a large degree the issues are of our own making & Sixgun is right, we are fat.

I don't know. Even the basics are pretty pricey these days. Maybe if the one earner nets 70k or more a year. A mortgage payment, property taxes, food, health care are all incredibly expensive, and if you have kids, food and health care will really put the hurt on you.

Also, there's a zone in between excess and living so spartan that life is sheer misery. Technically, you could save money by squatting in a corrugated tin shack out behind the chemicals plant, but is that really living?

Personally, I am shooting for a nice quality of life. Unfortunately, a lot of people mistake quality of life for quantity of life.

I would also like to add that before people come down on my generation too hard, remember whose generations created the marketing machine that has inundated us with one message since birth: "If you don't have this stuff, you have no value as a person." It has some effect even on the most resistant of us.

Not to worry, though, this culture of unchecked consumerism is simply unsustainable in the long run. It will collapse in upon itself at some point and whatever rises from the ashes will be better than what we have now. I'm pretty confident of that.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:09 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Jarhead,
How come you won the lottery and did not tell anyone?
I work with a guy who said his wife, when he was dating her LOVED to ride on his Harley, then; after they got married; never got on it again.
He asked me if I thought he could sue her for false advertising.
I told him if he tried, he was a @!#$% fool!

I married my high school Sweatheart who is a Native American Indian. She has her faults but so do I...We have been together since 1968 and she wrote me a lot when I was in the "Crotch(USMC)." I had some issues (mental) when I got out and if it had not been for her, I would not have made it. Not easy living with a Marine...She has been expensive, but so have I...I have always gotten to buy Guns, Motorcycles, and take my hunting trips. She even lets me take extended motorcycle trips (6-8 weeks) and she never complained. Lucky as hell I guess. It all about love and trust and it's a hard thing to find.

I've had some friends who weren't so lucky and ended up loosing everything they worked for...House, 401k, etc...

Ya just never know what it's going to end up like....Some fellas end up getting divorced after 25+ years and really get burned. Have to start all over late in life....

Like you realated in your earlier post, everything in life is transitional (including life itself). If I lost her now, I would be a basket case. I hope I die first...I had a 1st LT. in the Marine Corps that told me, "nothing bad lasts forever and nothing good does either."

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:11 pm

Jason_W wrote:...I don't know. Even the basics are pretty pricey these days. Maybe if the one earner nets 70k or more a year. A mortgage payment, property taxes, food, health care are all incredibly expensive, and if you have kids, food and health care will really put the hurt on you.

That is why I posted what I did. I "make" $36K. My wife's Social Secutrity Disability (which we want desperately to be rid of) is another $10K... before taxes.

That's it. One "Earner". It ain't pretty, but it can be done.

Also, there's a zone in between excess and living so spartan that life is sheer misery. Technically, you could save money by squatting in a corrugated tin shack out behind the chemicals plant, but is that really living?...

I'm not there yet...

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:39 pm

My niece, ( very proud of her ) was the ONLY Native American, who graduated from her high school the year she did.
I know what you are saying, those Pendelton blankets are not cheap!
I envy you guys that have good women.
I always zigged, when I should have zagged!

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:58 pm

I couldn't agree with jason more!

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:59 pm

mescalero1 wrote:My niece, ( very proud of her ) was the ONLY Native American, who graduated from her high school the year she did.
I know what you are saying, those Pendelton blankets are not cheap!
I envy you guys that have good women.
I always zigged, when I should have zagged!

Women are like good friends..very hard to come by. I don't have many friends, except for a few Marine Brothers, who I know I can trust with my life. That's just the way it is....and yes, we have quite a few Pendleton Blankets and two very nice Cradle Boards...

My oldest girl is 24 and lives in Eagle River , Alaska with her husband. My youngest is 18 and is finishing up her first year in College. They will inherit my Families farm located at the base of the Strawberry Mountains in Eastern Oregon. Until that time, I will drop out of society with my wife and live like I've always wanted to.
That corporate life really sucks..big time! Glad to be away from it. I never liked the city, but had to put up with it to raise my family and pursue my career. In the end, the career doesn't mean much. What matters is your family.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:17 pm

It lifts the spirits to hear of Native girls doing well,
Thank you Sir, for your fine contribution!

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:20 pm

mescalero1 wrote:It lifts the spirits to hear of Native girls doing well,
Thank you Sir, for your fine contribution!

Semper Fi... Brother....One of the things I like about the Native American Culture is...they respect Warriors and at the Pow Wows, there is always a Native American carrying the Marine Corps Flag! I served with an Apache in the Corps..I was his Squad Leader and friend...still am.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:34 pm

They draft the Mescalero in the very first round

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:40 pm

mescalero1 wrote:They draft the Mescalero in the very first round

What year did you get drafted?

My wife is from the Yakima Nation...She is a "Sohappy"....Her Uncle was put in prison for fishing for Salmon on the Columbia River. You may have heard of this? David Sohappy was his name and he died in Federal Prison.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:52 pm

Jarhead,
This is too wierd, my niece, who is Squamish, is from Washington

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:55 pm

Jarhead,
lets back up a bit, I think we hijacked a thread, I want to offer my apoligies; that was not my intent!

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:03 am

mescalero1 wrote:Jarhead,
lets back up a bit, I think we hijacked a thread, I want to offer my apoligies; that was not my intent!

I understand...not my intent as well. I hope the fellas don't mind? You can PM to continue our conversation if you wish...

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:13 am

Jarhead,
I did a PM
Please uderstand I am not to hip, to these kind of transactions.
If it did not work, I don't know why

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:24 am

mescalero1 wrote:Jarhead,
I did a PM
Please uderstand I am not to hip, to these kind of transactions.
If it did not work, I don't know why

I got your PM...we can take it from here.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:31 am

Cool, even a extictint species like me, can still serve a purpose

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:38 am

shawn_c992001 wrote:I work with a guy who actually can not afford to miss a shift. Why? He says he wants to give his kids what he didn't have growing up. Is there anything wrong with that? Do his kids respect/love him anymore? I think he's in for a rude awakening when his kids get older.

You may be right, but you may be wrong. My dad fought a war, then worked his butt off so my sister's and I could have the things he didn't(Navy brat, moved all over, and grew up during the depression). And trust me, he knew he was loved and appreciated. It's not how much you give a child, it's how much you "teach" a child. We lived well, me and mine have lived well, and the boys were "taught" well, by teaching them what I was taught. Not all of today's kids are ungrateful. Only those who were never "taught" gratitude.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:44 am

There are some 2 income families where both incomes are equal, but usually the wife raises the kids and then works either part-time or at less pay than the husband.

Studies show that her income exactly corresponds with the increase in taxes since the 1950's. So, she's working strictly to pay the extra tax burden, which is used for the welfare state (which started growing at the same time).

So basically she's just working for other people instead of her own family.

Also lots of times the second income doesn't net that much after you factor in the extra car, gas, meals out, etc.

I think what helps is lots of consumer goods are cheaper these days. My parents paid $75.00 for a radio in 1964, that was about a week's pay. These days a week's pay is about $500.00, you can buy a lot of radios with that (after you pay your taxes, even).

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:48 am

Also lots of times the second income doesn't net that much after you factor in the extra car, gas, meals out, etc.

Thats what I'm talking about. Those are among the things that a generation or 2 ago werent needed, it was more important to have a parent in the home than to have an extra car, eat out, ect.
If I only had the things grandpa did we could easily live on one income.
We being my family.

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:51 am

I will have to agree with what Sobenk stated. Today the tax burden for families is abysmal. That is the big problem. Real estate taxes are by far the worst for some people . It makes me ill to see older people having to move out because the taxes have forced them to do so.

I believe one of the greatest factors in our societies downfall is the tax system and the resultant bureaucracy that goes along with it. The powers that be coerce you into paying the taxes and regulate how you live.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:34 am

It is not whether or not we as a society are phat, too much excess, living too high off the hog...whatever. It is what our society demands of the median and the expectations of what is 'necessary' to be considered 'average'. Think about it for a minute. What would happen if the majority of our society finally gave up trying to chase the literal carrot and just decided to stop and enjoy that carrot. Our economy would tailspin to depths unperceived by even the most pestimistic doomsdaysayer. Therefore, it takes two people of modest income to generally 'break' even and if one of those working couples makes more than the per capita average and they control expenditures, they are a head of the game. Jason is correct on the 'need' for two cars to generally sustain a two income family, can't build the shed without the tools can ya. We 'need' two incomes to cover the cost of the financing that initiates the higher prices we 'have' to pay for basic necessities, like housing, like utilities, like cars, but most of all like taxes! The roof over your head a hundred years ago consumed less than 15% of the average persons annual income...and that is if you were renting or one of the less than 10% nationally with a mortgage. Yes, electricity was available in urban areas, and as a utility was very expensive..10% of annual income, pretty much close to the cost of that roof over your head. If you were rural, you paid that out in kerosene or other fuels annually. Food was the biggest expense right up to the '50's, interpolated over the fifty year span from 1908 to 1958, the average family of 5.3 people(bigger families then) spent up to 50% of their income on FOOD. Our society has changed to motivate the economy, to expand corporate profits, to increase the GNP, and therefore increase the amount government has to hire people for what used to be unessential positions. We reached the limits of the need for basic essentials somewhere back in the mid to late sixties, when the middle class was the largest segment of our population. If you remember the media 'talk' as to the forecasting of reduced work weeks, more vacation, and reaping the rewards of an affluent society...well what happend to that? It was never intended to come to fruitition. The economists that studied the '30's and the real cauase of the 'depression' realized that without continual consumption commodity demand and movement of money that the economy stagnates. Therefore, the powers that be, whether that be the Roosevelt New Dealists or the Republican market advocates that steered us to a post war consumer market via opening up a period of relatively easy personal credit in which our general costs of necessities like a roof over your head grew to an average of 33% of total annual income nationally. That was the catalyst that flipped our society and the cataclysmic period was from the early '70's to the early '80's where we changed from a nation (general population) of wealth accumulators (saving) to a nation of consumption based on debt.

Now we Have to Have the 'stuff', bigger homes, more cars, all the keep up the Jone's stuff....otherwise you are not doing YOUR part!

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:06 pm

I am well pleased with myself for NOT doing my part.
Am I to be punished for figuring out the futility of it, and , rightfully, not lending myself to this mindless endeavor in the form of my person?

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:42 pm

We were taught to work and save for what we wanted, credit was frowned on.

My dad always said, "it's not peoples needs that gets them in trouble, it's thier wants".

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:41 pm

Yeah sure..I went thru a spell of buying & spending...consumption.. when I was younger...sort of thing I did just because I had never had made enough money to do it until then..But even then I was conservative about it compared to my peers...
To me $$$ in the bank has always been what's cool..I never looked at my house as an investment..It's where I live period! Living below my means is what I have strived for... Roof over my head..warm..belly full..adequate transportation..pursuit of happiness..Shooting old guns & making ammo for them..Drink of whiskey & smoke now & then..Keeping up with the Jones...Man I always ran away from that...

Peter M. Eick · Post by **Peter M. Eick** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:58 pm

Your post is interesting because I was just wrapping up my taxes.

I can finally say I am earning more then my parents but it sure took a long time and a lot of hard work to get here.

This morning my wife and I were telling our daughter about our first apartment where we owned 2 folding chairs and we took the back seat out of our rabbit (car) to make a couch out of. We had one 4' fluorescent light in the living room that plugged in (no switch) and was nailed into the wall sideways to make a light for the room. Our first TV was a broken one I repaired.

Now after many years, we have saved and worked so that we have a big house (too big actually but at the time it was all I could find) that is nearly paid off. I could pay it off tomorrow if I wanted to write the check. I actually have enough cash in the bank that I am worried about the NDIC limits on insurance for savings accounts. I have two cars and neither one is over a year old yet. I could go on but whats the point?

The point is that if you worked hard, toughed it out and life broke you a few lucky breaks then you could still "make it" in the US. I look at my daughter and say that she is going to have a rough time in life. I really doubt she can better our standard of living today and I expect that to be a big let down as she gets out on her own.

The problem is, that today's generation (my daughter included) does not know the meaning of getting by or doing without. That is my and societies fault since I have the financial backing not to allow this to happen.

This to me is the root cause of the fat nature of society today. Those of us who worked hard to get ahead, will/are having a hard time explaining to the next generation how to do that step.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:15 pm

I think Mr.Eick is correct,
we worked ourselves out of it, but the cards seem to be stacked against the young ones, the debt is becoming too large to service

MikeS. · Post by **MikeS.** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:59 pm

Yes most of us are. My Sat tv bill is now at 110 a month, it is billed with the house phone and ISP for about 180 a month total. Then the cell phone.

I'm fortunate that my credit debt is limited to my car and house and that I have a good job.

Crazy is what I am, typical fat American.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:05 am

I was talking to my boss about this today. He's 61, and he was telling me about when he was in high school. He said that he and his friends would get together and pool all their money. Fifty cents here, ten cents there, and so on, until they got about a dollar or so rounded up. Then they put gas in their car and were able to cruise Main all night. Gas was cheap back then, but money was harder to come by. Most high school kids can afford a lot more gas today at 3.50 a gallon, than they could back then at .15 cents a gallon. That kind of shows how "fat" we are. I think everyone, with a very few exceptions, is too materialistic, and not many people know how to live within their means.

I just got finished with Dave Ramsey's "Financial Peace University", and I highly recommend this course for anyone who hasn't taken it. After sitting through the whole course, I realized that he was just telling me to do what my granddad had been doing all his life. He saved and bought what they needed to get by, invested money, and was able to retire without much to worry about. He doesn't have any debt, and is able to be generous with his money, and all because of being frugal for so many years. If only we could learn this lesson, then maybe there wouldn't be so many people going bankrupt, or so many foreclosures happening all over the country.