45 Colt Fans - Guns Mag Aug '13

[JohndeFresno]

The August 2013 edition of Guns Magazine, on the stands and also viewable right now online (but not printable without paying), has a great article about the historic and presently loaded .45 Colt. John Barseness covered some outstanding high points within a little more than two full print pages (pp. 14-16, not counting ads).

Did you know that CUP and SAAMI psi designations are basically the same, at lower pressures? I've been handloading for several years, now; and I didn't. I couldn't see the use of consulting Lee's "Modern Reloading" 2nd Edition for some loads listed in CUP when I deal with psi loads with my software and other sources. But according to Mr. Barseness, you can use these interchangeably when you deal with the lower pressure loads; as I take it, non +P and non-magnum handgun loads.

For the moment, you can go to the online site and view this issue at:
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMG ... /GUNS0813/

Then, flip through to page 14. There are some nice loads there, including the modest 6.0 grain Bullseye load that pushes 250 grains of swaged Pb at 821 fps in a "standard" six-spinner.

OK - I've shared my info. Now my question for any of the dozens of handloading veterans who regularly contribute online:
Where, approximately, does one draw the line and quit equating CUP with PSI pressures? In other words, should we not assume that it is safe to use CUP stats starting at, say, 15,000 psi?

[Griff]

I've heard that, but only for a relatively narrow range, outside of that, they diverge. Wish I could remember who or where I heard that from.

ISTR some discussion of CUP vs PSI in the front of one of the reloading manuals I own. Just can't remember the exact correlation, or the specific manual. Just type in "psi vs cup" into Google and read away!

[JohndeFresno]

I've done that several times, Griff, and at best I get a vague and generally incongruous explanation like this one:
"Before about the 1960's the only measurement system we had for chamber pressure was the cop
per crusher method. Up until that time, what we now call CUP was commonly known by two different names: CUP and PSI. The two were used practically interchangeably."

But I never have found anything (until now) that says, "OK, you can use either measurement fairly safely between [X] and [Y] values."

One wag said, on "Handloaders Bench" forum, that CUP is used to measure a certain part of of "innerware" for the ladies.

Several others have talked about "progressive logarithm" and similar pseudo science nonsense without actually giving figures that support that palaver.

One well meaning scientific type did provide a formula and resultant table in one of the forums, patiently recording all of the figures at the site. But then he added, "Only problem is, the errors are pretty big."

I'll keep looking.

[Griff]

And I don't think you will. I've asked a powder company ballistician or two, and came away with the feeling that I'd been treated to a smoke & mirrors show that I couldn't follow, or i tryly wasn't smart enough to understand what I'd been told. I like to believe it was the former, but suspect it was really the latter!

[JohndeFresno]

I know what you mean. The only logarithm I know about is when you get into an easy routine throwing wood on the campfire.

[olyinaz]

Good article on the subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_units_of_pressure

[J Miller]

John,

Thanks for the article. I read it all, I think. May have missed some of it. My monitor displayed it so small it gave me a headache from eye strain reading it.
The only thing I came away with was that I wished someone would write something original about the .45 Colt. He didn't, it's all been said before many times, by many gun writers. Any way, I have nothing to say about the CUP/PSI thing. I pretty much just follow what the loading books say and live with it.

Joe

[.45colt]

Thanks for the Link John, it's always good to see new articles about the Colt. when I started reloading for the .45 all of the gun rags were dealing with the Colt as an "obsolete" round same as the 45/70. My favorite load is Keiths load and bullet and like Elmer I call it the "Long" Colt. .

[Griff]

..like Elmer I call it the "Long" Colt. .

So... which do you call the "short Colt?"

[Chas.]

..like Elmer I call it the "Long" Colt. .

So... which do you call the "short Colt?"

Schofield.

[Eye-Bite!]

Thanks.... Just ordered the Rag.........

[Old Savage]

It started out as 45 Colt.

[Sixgun]

I've been using that load of 6 grains of Bullseye (or 6 grs. of Red Dot) with a 250 cast in the 45 LONG Colt for over 30 years.

I guess people are going to argue over what its really called. yea, I've got early Colt SAA's, New Services, and 1878 double actions and the barrels all read "45 Colt".

People don't call me "Sixgun" because I play with doll houses.

I don't care, I'm gettin' too old to argue. --------------------------6

[J Miller]

6 grains of Bullseye is if I remember correctly one of Elmer's light loads for the .45 COLT, ( no long to it ). Then he went to the 2400 load for serious uses. I've shot a bit of the 2400 load and found it fills the need for anything I want to do with the .45 Colt. I really need to pick up a can of Bullseye and really give that load a try. I've only popped a few of them when people give me partial cans of B-eye.

I think I could part with all my guns but the .45 Colts. Those I'll have burried with me.


Joe

[Old Savage]

Well 45colt, on pages 44, 48, 49, 50 and 93 of Sixgun Cartridges and Loads Elmer calls it .45 Colt.

BTW, my copy is signed - Jim Taylor, Oracle, Az. 1988. Why would that be Jim? Did not know who you were then.

[JohndeFresno]

...
People don't call me "Sixgun" because I play with doll houses...

I know what you mean!

They don't call me "The Great El Bano" for nothing. By the way, does anybody speak Spanish?

[rimrock]

I don't remember where i found the following table, but it is one comparison of CUP vs. PSI---

Cartridge ANSI CUP ANSI PSI
222 rem 46000 50000
22-250 rem 53000 65000
243 win 52000 60000
25-06 rem 53000 63000
257 roberts 45000 54000
264 win mag 54000 64000
270 win 52000 65000
280 rem 50000 60000
284 win 54000 56000
30 carbine 40000 40000
300 savage 46000 47000
300 win mag 54000 64000
30-06 springfield 50000 60000
303 british 45000 49000
30-30 win 38000 42000
308 win 52000 60000
32 win special 38000 42000
338 win mag 54000 64000
35 rem 35000 33500
375 h&h mag 53000 62000
444 marlin 44000 42000
45-70 government 28000 28000
6.5 rem mag 53000 65000
6mm rem 52000 65000
7mm express Rem 40000 45000
7mm rem mag 46000 51000
7mm SE vH 52000 61000
7x50 R 52000 61000
8mm rem mag 37000 35000
8x50R 54000 65000

[JohndeFresno]

Rimrock,

That is a handy little chart. It is found at:
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

But... again, this nonsense. I have sorted the table by CUP, then PSI, then Caliber.
Take a close look and you will find some listings, such as 40,000 CUP, don't
consistently translate to the same PSI value!

That is because of the dwell factor; the delayed or prolonged pressure changes
which do not show up in one of the two tests (so I read, I am NO engineer).
So we are back to square one.

[Sixgun]

OK, I worked on the Jeep today, cut the grass, ate my din-din, took a shower and now I'm ready to argue.

There are TWO main reasons for the non-industry description of why the 45 Colt is called the 45 LONG Colt by many people.

#1.) We all know about the military's "short" Schofield round and the S & W top break revolver that it was chambered in and we also know how the army standardized on the "short" 45 round. I have many examples of all variations of the military 45 Colt round with varying headstamps, lengths, and primer types from the earliest type from 1873 to sealed boxes of military 45 Colt made in 1910 for the U.S.M.C. New Service loaded with 6 grains of Bullseye, stamped on the box. Now..........................if you lived back in the day and you saw these cartridges on dealer's shelves/whatever and you had a 45 revolver or if you were just bs'en with a bud, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY? Well, I'll tell you what I would say, "Excuse me mr. gunshop owner, I have this old military S&W Schofield revolver and I need some ammo." The dealer would say, "Oh! You need the short 45 ammo, not the LONG 45.

#2) In 1911, when the famous 1911 started to become known, (yea, there was a 1905 but not many people knew about that one) the cartridge for the 1911 was informally known as the "Colt 45" or "45 Colt". This also started confusion as to which cartridge fit in what gun to the general public, (not military people or knowledgeable people). The 45 Colt cartridge was once again referred to as LONG.

This still happens today as my second home is Targetmaster and people come in on a regular basis and ask for ammo, buy it, come back and say the shop sold them the wrong stuff. Retarts are retarts and that's just the way the world is.

So............yes Virginia, there is a 45 LONG COLT, its just not recognized by the industry. Have a nice day. -----------------------------------Sixgun

[Old Savage]

OK, so when are you going start arguing - that was an informative dissertation Professor Six. You should been there with me and Ilona today when she ordered a veggie burger without onions (keep in mind that her accent is more German than Polish and she is blond) and they brought her a veggie burger without onions but she was thinking veggie burrito without onions and so then they brought her a veggie burrito with onions. When I called the waiter and waitress over for about the fifth time she said they should have given her the garden burrito which doesn't have onions. My cheeseburger with fries was fine since you asked and it was OK with me to have Pepsi rather than coke. Now when we walked out Ilona tried to open the door that wouldn't open while the one I pushed worked fine. She then turned the wrong way to go to the Jeep. This all made her tight on time to get to work so when we approached the hospital there was an accident and we had to wait through a couple of lights and then a cop was coming the wrong way and we had to pull over and wait for him. No idea how the rest of her day went. Now is that a garden burrito you wanted that doesn't have onions or the veggie burge which does which we didn't tell you when you ordered the veggie burger without onions or the veggie burrito which of course does. Whew - they gave me a 10% discount on the bill. If you go out in public or deal with the public it pays to see if they really understand what it is they thought they said. This is more or less the Board Hi-Lites version - now if you would prefer the long form be prepared to wait longer. And that is the long and short of it.

[Sixgun]

OS,
That made my brain hurt.

Well, like I said, tarts are tarts and the percentage is growing. Whew! I'm glad I'm as old as I am.----6

[JohndeFresno]

OK, so when are you going start arguing - that was an informative dissertation Professor Six. You should been there with me and Ilona today...[snip]...[snip]...
This is more or less the Board Hi-Lites version - now if you would prefer the long form be prepared to wait longer. And that is the long and short of it.

[Old Savage]

Fellas - just that I have heard many versions of the Colt/Long Colt and who thinks what and I thought 6 presented a good view of the public confusion on the whole 45 issue. Reminded me of what I listened to at lunch with three people that did not hear what the others said or really see what they had said or done in the situation while I was a bystander essentially and the confusion seemed all quite clear if you were not part of it. I return control to you of the horizontal and the vertical for your regularly scheduled programming.

[Griff]

Take this as it is intended, food for thought; when you accept & repeat a dumbed-down, incorrect, imprecise nomemclature you know is wrong, you are passing up a golden opportunity to educate the world, one retard at a time!

I doubt very much whether anyone have ever entered a store and asked for ".45 Short Colt" when they wanted .45 Schofield, nor when they wanted 45 ACP, (aka .45 Auto). So, if the clerk gave them anything other than what they asked for... the clerk is ignorant, and needs training. Ignorance is a treatable condition, stupidity is not!

The simple truth is that there are two "Colt" 45s, the .45 Colt, and the .45 ACP (aka .45 Auto). It states such on the box, and on each and every cartridge.


And yes, OS, I learned long ago that the "Peter Principle" applies to just about any vocation... it certainly isn't limited to the executive wing! Even wait staff can be overly taxed by their position... should never have been promoted from busboy/girl!

[JohndeFresno]

Hee hee hee hee...

[Old Savage]

At the risk of shedding light on the "discussion" before we are done with the heat, such as it is - http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylo ... t_colt.htm

[Sixgun]

Just got outta bed and I'm FULL of energy to fight with. It sure is nice being a Teamster, getting a week off per month until the end of the year. Now, on to business.

Thanks O.S. As usual, you are correct. (about me being "the professor)

Now..................on to Griff................Griff, Most people did not read back in the day and you forget one BIG thing........your from Texas where EVERYONE knows about guns and the ammo that feeds them. This whole 45 short/long BS probably started in New Jersey where the combined intellect of all of it's citizens amounted to "45".

There!!!!!!!!!! I'm getting dressed and my bud Tommy is picking me up and we are headed for his property upstate to blast some machine gun ammo into the hillside. See you boys tonight.--------------------Sixgun

[harry]

OK, I worked on the Jeep today, cut the grass, ate my din-din, took a shower and now I'm ready to argue.

There are TWO main reasons for the non-industry description of why the 45 Colt is called the 45 LONG Colt by many people.

#1.) We all know about the military's "short" Schofield round and the S & W top break revolver that it was chambered in and we also know how the army standardized on the "short" 45 round. I have many examples of all variations of the military 45 Colt round with varying headstamps, lengths, and primer types from the earliest type from 1873 to sealed boxes of military 45 Colt made in 1910 for the U.S.M.C. New Service loaded with 6 grains of Bullseye, stamped on the box. Now..........................if you lived back in the day and you saw these cartridges on dealer's shelves/whatever and you had a 45 revolver or if you were just bs'en with a bud, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY? Well, I'll tell you what I would say, "Excuse me mr. gunshop owner, I have this old military S&W Schofield revolver and I need some ammo." The dealer would say, "Oh! You need the short 45 ammo, not the LONG 45.

#2) In 1911, when the famous 1911 started to become known, (yea, there was a 1905 but not many people knew about that one) the cartridge for the 1911 was informally known as the "Colt 45" or "45 Colt". This also started confusion as to which cartridge fit in what gun to the general public, (not military people or knowledgeable people). The 45 Colt cartridge was once again referred to as LONG.

This still happens today as my second home is Targetmaster and people come in on a regular basis and ask for ammo, buy it, come back and say the shop sold them the wrong stuff. Retarts are retarts and that's just the way the world is.

So............yes Virginia, there is a 45 LONG COLT, its just not recognized by the industry. Have a nice day. -----------------------------------Sixgun

Can't argue with right, yall have a nice day.

[J Miller]

I once went to a gun store to buy .45 COLT revolver ammo and when I told the counterman that I wanted a box of Winchester .45 COLT ammo he reached for the .45 ACP stack. I told him: NO, not .45 ACP, I want .45 COLT.
He turned and looked at me and said something to the effect: "Uh, that's the same thing, dude." His sarcasm was wasted on me as I detest being called "dude". I lambasted him with a tutorial on the difference between the .45 COLT and .45 ACP and when I was done, I said: "Now, I want a box of Winchester .45 COLT ammo".
The imbecilic, idiot, jerk, moron, was giving me one of those 'I'm stupid and enjoying it' kind of looks but grudgingly handed me a box of Winchester .45 COLT ammo. This was when Winchester .45 COLT came in the yellow 50 round boxes with the big red W on the top.

I don't take the bs from counter folk that the .45 COLT, .45 S&W (Schofield) and .45 ACP is the same thing. They aren't, and they each have their proper names.

I don't buy clips for my 1911a1s any more than I buy .45 COLT ammo for them. Words have meaning, if used correctly there is no confusion except with those who chose to be confused.

Joe

[JohndeFresno]

This ongoing (and to me, senseless) debate of the ".45 Colt" versus ".45 Long Colt":

My question is - is techno brilliance worth it in a world of everyday people? My take on it is that language is merely a form of communicating effectively with others. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I can cite several instances of the common man not knowing the common terminology - e.g. "I don't have any more room for files; I need more computer memory" when they mean that they need a larger capacity hard drive, not more memory (RAM) on the motherboard. But since I generally know what they mean, it's easier - for both of us - just to point them to their solution for increased data storage. I've learned that they won't remember what I said, anyway, because they say the same thing later - "He told me what to buy for more memory."

I believe that is what we have here - 2%(?) of the population using the "proper" terminology fighting against 98% of the world when a battle really isn't necessary. Just Google "45 Long Colt Ammo" and notice all of the entries for that type of ammunition. That's how I found the above photo.

As a young deputy, I used to get rankled when somebody told me, "I got robbed," when they should have said, "I got burgled." Robbery, you see, is the taking of something of value by force or fear; at least in California. It involves personal confrontation. Burglary has to do with entering a dwelling place or structure with the intent to steal or commit a felony. I finally wised up, relaxed, and didn't expend any more energy getting worked up over their "stupidity." After all, they aren't cops or lawyers!

Insist that the word is "burglary" to a victim who has just experienced a break-in, with their stuff missing and their wife upset (like I did a few times), and you get a blank or angry stare; they just want you to take a report, dust for fingerprints, get the heck out of there, and let them clean up the mess and get on with their life.

The same goes with that salesman. I suspect that, from his point of view, it was, "Oh, here is another gun nut who wants to lecture me when I just want to sell this stuff, collect my pay, and get on with important things in life after work."

I appreciate the expertise here, but I have to chuckle whenever somebody gets all worked up over terminology when we all understand the meaning of ".45 Long Colt." It sure doesn't bother me; better than: "Those fat little thingies that you stick into that cowboy gun."

As a side note, I remember complaining to my daughter how folks use terminology these days that just doesn't make sense; or how all the restaurants and even cookbooks are starting to spell chili and chili peppers as "Chile" which should be reserved for the country or for "Chile Verde", a dish with chili peppers and green sauce that recalls memories of the verdant country where it originated, hence the spelling with an 'e.'

The daughter - a Summa Cum Laude English major graduate who also has a Master's degree in Education and was a high school English teacher at the time (she's now a counselor), hit me with some wisdom that I have not forgotten:
"Dad, don't get all worked up. Language is about change. Look at how the dictionary has changed since you were a kid. New words and even new spellings get in there all the time, based upon the common usage. That is what language is all about."

Being anal is a very good thing when we are handloading. I don't think it's very good for most of our everyday communication, however. To me, it's like being at a restaurant and hearing some California wine snob loudly extolling the virtues of something he ordered, with words that are almost identical to what was written on the label. It's just not needed, and frequently paints the talker as one who is a bit pompous.

Not that any of us good ol' boys here are, of course!

[.45colt]

From Sixguns by Keith, page 285. may shed some light on the subject.
"Today we often hear the .45 Colt Peacemaker cartridge referred to as the .45 Long Colt.some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal,but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before,during ,and after world war 1,they would see there is some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long.these short .45 Remington cartridges for the .45 Colt were never very accurate due to the long bullet jump and the only thing that was standard about them was a 250 grain bullet.they were soundly cussed out in all the sporting magazines of the time and all old sixgun cranks deplored their use if either accuracy or power was wanted.they were a disgrace to the .45 Colt gun.I never tried them,but believe they would have worked in the old .45 break top Smith & Wesson guns,and that may have been the reason for their existence."

[Griff]

Thank you John of Fresno, I can now add pompass to my list of titles! And yes, now that there IS again a short 45 Colt round, maybe Long will become part of the lexicon again. However, until such time as there are loaded Cowboy45Specials on the store shelfs, what was available in the 19-teens and twenties is no reason to base today's terminology on something that has long since passed. For as JohndeFresno's daughter states, "...language is all about change."

So get with the times, quit using antiquated lingo that had reached it's expiration date when your folks were tadpoles!

[JohndeFresno]

Thank you John of Fresno, I can now add pompass to my list of titles!

Hahaha! Sorry, friend, I wasn't shooting across your bow. Prolly could have avoided that word. No, I'm not calling you pompous, Griff.

Mainly, I get a little sideways and perhaps carried away at the keyboard, when I think of the phony Left Coast know-it-alls who don't know beans about wine but make a big show that they do, because they read something in this week's "Wine Spectator" magazine. The guys that say, "This is an amusing little wine, and I can see where it has a rounded squareness to it."

The folks who don't know that the French bottled Chateauneuf du Pape loses most of its special character when it crosses the rolling seas, but insist that they can taste the superior characteristics of that French wine over domestics, served at room temperature which is NOT the European room temperature, in a San Francisco restaurant, and of course in front of an admiring, ignorant audience. All the while spending way too much money on a wine that has lost much of its uniqueness through its long journey to the restaurant table. I just don't want to sound like one of them.

And I don't claim to be a con-noisy-er, myself. But I have trouble suffering phonies.

Anyway, I got a little downstream. I know that you know your oats, but I suspect that even knowledgeable gents become frustrated and waste their time trying to impart that knowledge on matters like this. I know that if I were to ask for "45 Long Colt," the dude would retrieve the right box, even if he is a little savvy and decides to unload his "there is no such thing" on me - as he hands me the box!

In fact, I roll my own, but the last .45 Colt box I purchased (as a baseline for ballistic comparison) was requested in that way, at Big 5, where the clerk barely knew how to lift the hinged counter to find the bullets in the first place. "A box of 45 Long Colt, please." "Here you go, sir" (after he finally figured how to get into the ammo display area). Quick and easy.

EDITED: To Griff, not Joe!

[J Miller]

I am at a loss of something to say. Perhaps I shouldn't care, but then if I didn't care I'd be part of the 98% of those who are to lazy to use correct nomenclature. So, well, never mind.


Joe

[Sixgun]

John,
Bingo! I think what it all comes down to is "who reads history, and who likes the present and don't care what happened a million years ago." Neither guy is "bad", its just like your daughter says, "language changes".

This was great though, just look at all the experts here who will know how to argue when this "45 Colt/45 Long Colt" thingy comes up in another year or two.
Howda think I learned? ---------------Sixgun

[Griff]

John,

No offense taken. I may chide, poke a little fun here & there, even take others to task from time-to-time; but I know that even when doin' so I have to have a measure of humility... I don't know everything! ALMOST! But, not everything, yet! I did learn one important wine fact from a French somilier(sp?)/head waiter/owner of one of California's 5-star restaurants when I was a young man... as I puzzled over his wine list to pick a wine that would be appropriate for my wife's chateau briand and my frog legs, he asked, " what wine do you both like?" I named a Spanish sparkling rose', he told me that selection would ALWAYS be an appropriate choice. What I learned was that an inexpensive wine that you enjoy is far, far superior to an expensive one that you don't!

For 15 years the wife & I ate there regularly, probably averaged once a month, including birthdays, anniversarys and an occasional night out. Between us I know we tried everyhing on their menu, often relying on his recommendation. I never hesitated to recommend "the Riviera" of Costa Mesa to friends, family, business associates or social acquaintenaces. I doubt I'll find its equal in service, food & simple graciousness in my lifetime.

Oh, but I am a snob when it comes to cars, trucks & cigars. Long live small-block Chevys, Kenworths & a pox on the ban of Cubans!

[JohndeFresno]

Er - thinking about Joe's reply and answering Griff - edited the above!

Good on you about the wine advice - good advice! I think the same philosophy should apply to many other choices - choose that which works for you, not what folks tell you should be the choice. I no longer partake, but that is another story. As a young man, I lived for a while in the Napa valley and was exposed to the effort and skill that goes into pressing and processing the grape, although my knowledge is somewhat limited. There was quite a lot of free education available, with the guided tours offered by some of the world's great wineries in that region.

As for the sparkling rose, I suspect Freixenet was your choice of the day, given its abundant bottling and dispersion; at the time I liked the Portuguese Lancer's in its clever ceramic coated bottle.

[Griff]

As for the sparkling rose, I suspect Freixenet was your choice of the day, given its abundant bottling and dispersion; at the time I liked the Portuguese Lancer's in its clever ceramic coated bottle.

I was thinking it was Mateus, although I had the Lancers bottle pictured in my noggin... both our favorites. And here I've thought one or the other was Spanish. We'd had both there, although our introduction to them took place on Midway Island, while I was stationed there for part of '71 after my 1st foray into VN! You truly CAN learn anything here! Now I'll have to try that Freixenet if it's still around!

Speaking of touring wine country... I once delivered oak barrels to about 10 wineries in eastern WA state. an interesting education in itself!

[Old Savage]

Indeed, Mateus and Lancer's Vin Rose went together in time from the early sixties on for a while. Hardly ever hear of them now.