.45 ACP Leverguns

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Griff
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.45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

I'm making VERY slow progress with my project Marlin 1894 to use Adirondak Jack's Cowboy 45 Special cartridge AND 45 Colt. Called a Widderm'AJik conversion. However, a good friend of mine, fellow competitor and back in the day, the guy who regularly beat me at our cowboy action match also took a '70s vintage Marlin 1894 .44Mag and converted it to .45ACP. I may have mentioned this in my project thread.

Anyway, last Tuesday, we met again out at the gunsmith's shop, to catch up on events since we last got a chance to visit... and for him to show my his latest two projects.

This is so simple, I kinda wonder why it wasn't done before... Any way, in his search for a better mousetrap and a backup for his .45ACP Marlin 1894, he found an inexpensive older Uberti 1873 carbine in .45Colt. He dropped it off at the gunsmith and had him lob off the chamber end of the barrel, cut a new extractor and lower tab slot, setting the barrel back far enough that it now headspaces on the mouth of a .45ACP case. To hand the feeding chores of the much shorter ACP case, he installed a lifter from Adirondack Jack for the C45S cartridge. No other modification was required. As he said, it "...was so slick that I knew immediately the Marlin was getting set aside..." as his main match gun. When I asked him is he'd thought about getting it "short-stroked"... he then produced a second Uberti 1873, one of the "Renegade" models with the conversion and factory short-stroke kits installed.

I gotta tell ya, I started my conversion with the idea that you couldn't make a .45ACP levergun run very well. Well, with a little judicious application of "... I CAN!" It can be done. Now, time will tell, as I suspect that if he gets any crud under the extractor, that extraction will become an issue... that 45ACP rim being so much smaller. But, I suppose a little reshaping of the extractor would eliminate that issue very readily.

Since my rifle will not likely be ready in time... I did extract a promise from his to be allowed to run with one his .45ACP leverguns.

Sorry guys, I didn't have my camera with me, but at our next match I will take some pictures, maybe even a video of it in operation.

Mind ya, this is all in order to load only one cartridge for both handgun and rifle in the fairly new shooting sport of "Wild Bunch"... I'm sure that the inclusion of the Winchester Mdl 12 a legal shotgun will make this sport a little more appealing to those that like a .45ACP 1911, leverguns and pump shotguns! With a absolute minimum power factor of 150 (velocity times bullet wt. divided by 1000) for both rifle and handgun, rifles of at least .40 caliber and shotguns at 16 gauge, this ain't gonna devolve into a pfft/tink game like so many have done to cowboy action. With only two categories for both men or women, Traditional and Modern, and those difference being rather slight and based solely on the handgun and grip (traditional requires a one-handed grip), and the whole game is more geared to the 1911 and emphasis shifted from the rifle to the shotgun, I see another group of shooters getting involved. Both some of those a little fed up with cowboy action (as my friend), and those with an appreciation of the original flavor of the 1911 Colt!

I predict, depending on Joey's performance with his .45ACP 1873's, we'll see more folks making said conversions of leverguns to .45ACP.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by 3leggedturtle »

I love to have a 16" octagon M92 in 45 Auto Hope your rifle comes together soon
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Alphawolf45 »

I have Winchester 1873 that I am building as .45 acp....Closer to being finished I am also Building a Maynard in .45 acp (single shot lever actuated civil war era firearm)..I am rather taken with the 45 acp cartridge.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Paladin »

Sounds Great, keep us posted on how it runs and what the final mod requirements are. If and when I get home I would love to get one set up.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

I always thought a Spencer in 45ACP would be a fun toy. :D

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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by olyinaz »

Friends Call Me Ji wrote:I always thought a Spencer in 45ACP would be a fun toy. :D

Image
Perfect!!

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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by anachronism »

Ed Harris' 45 ACP levergun- look about halfway down the long, long page.


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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Rusty »

A Wild bunch match sounds like it would be more realistic.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Paladin wrote:Sounds Great, keep us posted on how it runs and what the final mod requirements are. If and when I get home I would love to get one set up.
+1 :D
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Palmtreee »

Griff, love the 45 ACP in a lever gun. DRC made my 1894 in 45 ACP. Do you think that the 1873 in 45 Colt with a new Cowboy carrier could be the way to go? Any gunsmiths you could recommend?
Can't wait to hear how yours ends up.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Tumbleweeds II »

Well, that .40 minimum shoots my idea of getting a Coonan .357/.38 and hunting up a WB club. Guess I'll have to come up with another excuse.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by william iorg »

Bob Snap converted a Marlin 1894 to 45 ACP and wrote about it in the July 1983 issue of the American Rifleman.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by GregT »

A looooong time ago, Robert Snap ("pp?") rebarreled and converted a #1 Remington rolling block to .45 ACP for me. I used it to test reloads for my Model 1911 pistols that I was shooting like a mad fool when I got out of High School (and did my hearing in...). He was quite a guy. Ended up in Royal Oak, Michigan, I think.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by madman4570 »

Extremely cool!

And, whats not to like having something that with a $15 container (1 lb) of power you can load up aprox 1000rds.(and that round being pretty darn deadly to boot.) In the hard times now and coming--------------Love it!

Would buy one in a heart beat!
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by william iorg »

GregT wrote:A looooong time ago, Robert Snap ("pp?") GregT
Your right of course, Snapp, tricky things these fingers.

The 16 1/2" barrel magazine held 11 rounds.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by AJMD429 »

Palmtreee wrote:Image
THAT is one of the most cool leverguns I've ever seen....

Please sometime do a 'range report' about it. It would be a good thread for the site.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

william iorg wrote:Bob Snap converted a Marlin 1894 to 45 ACP and wrote about it in the July 1983 issue of the American Rifleman.
I remember reading of that project, but what I took away from the article was that it was a complicated conversion, not 100% reliable and no superior ballistically to a a .44Spl in the then available .44 Mag version. I know I was far less adventuresome in what I was willing to try, was far less knowledgeable, and maybe most importantly, had less disposable income. Although I was intrigued, w/o a specific purpose or justifiable end-use, I might have read more negatives into the article than was there.
Palmtreee wrote:Griff, love the 45 ACP in a lever gun. DRC made my 1894 in 45 ACP. Do you think that the 1873 in 45 Colt with a new Cowboy carrier could be the way to go? Any gunsmiths you could recommend?
Can't wait to hear how yours ends up.
Image
Nice looking rifle. Is that the TD version that allows you to keep the magazine full when in TD form... as you have it pictured?

The 3 rifles I looked at the other day were a friend's. My project is for a 45Colt/C45S convertible... able to run both calibers. The 45ACP headspaces on the case mouth versus the rim as the 45 Colt & Cowboy45Special do. The 45Colt barrel needs to be set back so the chamber length is correct, otherwise there's nothing to stop the 45ACP being driven forward in the chamber. I don't believe one could count on the extractor to hold the case against the bolt face.

As far as gunsmiths capable? Well, the gentleman that did my friend's was Larry's Gunsmithing of Ponder, TX. The good ones are the busy ones.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by william iorg »

I dug out the article and read it. Bob Snapp and Ed Harris chose a 44 Magnum for their conversion and had some challenges with modifications of the lifter. He does appear to have solved all of the feeding trouble.
The bolt face had to be bushed for the smaller case rim. The description gives the impression this was quite a task.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Palmtreee »

Griff, thanks for the reply. Ponder is a few miles down the road, that is good news. The TD does not have the full mag conversion. I did not like the way it used a large button on the outside of the forearm.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

william iorg wrote:I dug out the article and read it. Bob Snapp and Ed Harris chose a 44 Magnum for their conversion and had some challenges with modifications of the lifter. He does appear to have solved all of the feeding trouble.
The bolt face had to be bushed for the smaller case rim. The description gives the impression this was quite a task.
That's probably what I vaguely remember. My friend used a .44 Mag also. I'm going to meet with him next month (gotta stay out on the road and generate some income for a couple more weeks), and take some photos and get some detailed info on just how his conversions were done. We'll be shooting a match with them, so we'll get some speed work in, then do some accuracy testing with some handloads and factory ammo. I'll fill y'all in on what we find.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Palmtreee »

Hey Griff, any updates on your rifle? I love 45 ACP leverguns!
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by olyinaz »

With .45 ACP remaining consistently in supply through these crazy times, I'd say there's even more reason for Marlin or Uberti to offer their lever guns in that chambering.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

Palmtreee wrote:Hey Griff, any updates on your rifle? I love 45 ACP leverguns!
I wish I could say that there was... Been runnin' around and when I'm home, my bud is busy with his business. We're hopin' to get together over the 4th of July or thereabouts, neither of us has much family in the area, so... might happen. Mine is all apart for final polishing, and another attempt to make it feed 45Colt as well as the Cowboy45Special!
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Palmtreee »

Thanks for the update. Keep us posted.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by AJMD429 »

olyinaz wrote:With .45 ACP remaining consistently in supply through these crazy times, I'd say there's even more reason for Marlin or Uberti to offer their lever guns in that chambering.
Since it HAS been done, it seems like Marlin or Uberti could quickly get one into production and sell a bunch of them, without a huge capital investment.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

AJMD429 wrote:
olyinaz wrote:With .45 ACP remaining consistently in supply through these crazy times, I'd say there's even more reason for Marlin or Uberti to offer their lever guns in that chambering.
Since it HAS been done, it seems like Marlin or Uberti could quickly get one into production and sell a bunch of them, without a huge capital investment.
Being that I have miy Marlin nearly done... I gotta tell ya, there's a LOT of hand fitting on the 1894 to make this conversion work. The carrier has to be completely reworked to make this short of a cartridge work well. Carrier timing is also significantly altered to bring the carrier up faster, ensuring you don't get a double feed.

The Uberti toggle link is probably the easier of the two, as it only requires the replacement of the carrier and the setback of the mag tube & barrel to make a .45ACP chamber.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by piller »

It sounds like a great idea for someone to make it a factory gun, but in the Dallas area, .45 ACP is not easily found. Even 86er was trying to make deals to find it.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Palmtreee »

Hey Griff, any updates on your rifle? I love 45 ACP leverguns!
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Pete44ru »

Alphawolf45 wrote:
I have Winchester 1873 that I am building as .45 acp....Closer to being finished.
I am also building a Maynard in .45 acp (single shot lever actuated civil war era firearm)..I am rather taken with the 45 acp cartridge.

Are you building them off an issue M-1873 & Maynard, or (as usual w/you) are they a M-1873 & a Maynard that you've built from scratch ?

I suspect that I'm not the onlyest one, who'd like some pics of yer outstanding work product ................. :mrgreen:


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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

Pete44ru wrote:
Alphawolf45 wrote:I have Winchester 1873 that I am building as .45 acp....Closer to being finished.
I am also building a Maynard in .45 acp (single shot lever actuated civil war era firearm)..I am rather taken with the 45 acp cartridge.
Are you building them off an issue M-1873 & Maynard, or (as usual w/you) are they a M-1873 & a Maynard that you've built from scratch ?

I suspect that I'm not the onlyest one, who'd like some pics of yer outstanding work product ................. :mrgreen:
.
That's ABSOLUTELY correct!
Palmtreee wrote:Hey Griff, any updates on your rifle? I love 45 ACP leverguns!
I THOUGHT (emphasis on the thought), I had it running right... but this last time out to the range I had several rounds that didn't fire the first time thru... had to recock the hammer and pull the trigger again. They all went off the 2nd time, except one, and it took 3 tries. I'm not sure if it's an ammo issue, or a gun issue. As I didn't have time afterward to diagnose... had to get back to work!

I finally got some bedding compound to better bed the stock that I'm capable of as a "wood-worker"! I'm doing the stock work on a friend's rifle also... and have ruined 3 forends trying to get one fitted with a "skinny" (aka Winchester), forend! The aggravating part is that Marlin only makes a round barreled forend of the correct length, and this rifle also has a octagon barrel! I must admit... I'm getting a little "gun-shy" to attempt this 4th forend!

As for those curved buttplates... Well, let's just say, that I have newfound appreciation for those folks that can do this "RIGHT"!

Shucks... I don't even have any updated photos to show current status...
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Streetstar »

I never saw the point of a 45 ACP lever gun until you commented on the tie in with the Wildbunch matches-and now I can see the light

Sounds like fun--
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by JohndeFresno »

Image

GREAT stuff, Griff!
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by kaschi »

I've mentioned this before but my cousin had a 92 Winchester carbine in 45 acp back in the 70s. It was used by a police force in either Mexico, Central or South America since there was a stamp in Spanish on the left side of the receiver. Don't remember which agency, though. It shot pretty good and functioned well. Once in a while when cycling the action, a loaded cartridge would do a "180" and you'd have to turn it around. Other than that it worked fine. Now, that would never happen in a Marlin because a loaded round could never somersault due to the "roof"! But something tells me that it would be easier to convert a 92 Win than it would be a 94 Marlin to 45 acp. I mean, you can see straight through the action of a Winchester. The Marlin always seemed (to me anyway) to have concealed and secretive nooks and crannies which just don't allow a guy to "have a clean peek inside" and detect why it may be malfunctioning.
If I could have a 45 acp lever gun, then I'd personally prefer a 92. Maybe Rossi could whip up a batch.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

kaschi wrote:I've mentioned this before but my cousin had a 92 Winchester carbine in 45 acp back in the 70s. It was used by a police force in either Mexico, Central or South America since there was a stamp in Spanish on the left side of the receiver. Don't remember which agency, though. It shot pretty good and functioned well. Once in a while when cycling the action, a loaded cartridge would do a "180" and you'd have to turn it around. Other than that it worked fine. Now, that would never happen in a Marlin because a loaded round could never somersault due to the "roof"! But something tells me that it would be easier to convert a 92 Win than it would be a 94 Marlin to 45 acp. I mean, you can see straight through the action of a Winchester. The Marlin always seemed (to me anyway) to have concealed and secretive nooks and crannies which just don't allow a guy to "have a clean peek inside" and detect why it may be malfunctioning.
If I could have a 45 acp lever gun, then I'd personally prefer a 92. Maybe Rossi could whip up a batch.
I think those were from Brazil. However, an 1892 is more problematic to convert as it relies on the slots in the guide plates to control feeding. With out a rim, there isn't any real control. And the Marlin is simpler to remove the bolt from to get that "straight-thru" visual.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by CowboyTutt »

Dang you Griff, now you have me wondering what a levergun in 10mm would be like. Same problems to make it as the 45 ACP I think, but would sure have some capacity and robust performance! 8) -Tutt
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Palmtreee »

Hey Griff, any updates on the 45 ACP levergun?
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by kaschi »

@ CowboyTutt: Just get a 38-40 WCF! :D
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by cshold »

kaschi wrote:@ CowboyTutt: Just get a 38-40 WCF! :D

+1
And those little old bottle necks are way cool looking 8)

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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

Palmtreee wrote:Hey Griff, any updates on the 45 ACP levergun?
Actually, my project isn't a .45ACP, it's a Cowboy45Special/45Colt. And I've got it feeding the C45S good, but the carrier won't let the 45Colt outta the magazine.

And my itty bitty gun budget is over-allocated! :twisted:
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by peter richards »

Griff
Here is my 45acp lever gun. It is marked policia prov. Santa Fe. It was apparently converted in the 1920's for the Santa Fe, Mexico City Police as a combo for their 1911 side arms.
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by ectrigger »

Sorry for the very old post "revival".
My name is Enrique, from Argentina.

I arrived here searching about the possibility of converting a Marlin 94 .38-40 (build around 1905) to .45 Colt. It was my grandfather's and was not fired for at least 50 years. There were missing the rear firing pin and the firing pin spring. I just received and installed them.
The problem is that here the .38-40 is obsolete. And I just got a Blackhawk Convertible .45 Colt/.45 ACP. :D

I just wanted to say that probably, the Policía de la Provincia de Santa Fe, is from Santa Fe, Argentina.
I don't know much about Mexico, but I understand that there were "Provincias" until 1824 (and Santa Fe wasn't one), when they became sates (estados).

Saludos, Enrique
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by gamekeeper »

Welcome to the fire Enrique I would be inclined to keep your grandfather's Marlin as it is. Maybe reloading for .38/40 if that is possible in Argentina would be the way to go.
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ectrigger
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by ectrigger »

Thanks gamekeeper!
That is what I most probably do...
Changing a caliber here is complicated as guns are registered and you must inform the change of caliber, if you find the parts and the gunsmith to do it.

I'm trying to find .38-40 and .45 Colt dies from Lee in the US, but all the online shops I checked are out of stock!.

I probably won't use it much, as I have other "cowboy guns" (just don't want to leave out the Colt saying leverguns :D )

Marlin 1894 .44 Magnum (1999/2000)
Marlin 94 .38-40. (1905)
Winchester 1892 .44-40 (1900)
Winchester 1894 .30-30 (1919)
Colt Lightning .44-40 (1896)

A couple of days ago I saw a friend's 1892 modified to .45 ACP, but it wasn't functioning very good.

Saludos!
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AmBraCol
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by AmBraCol »

Enrique, ¡bienvenido!

Greetings from the other end of the continent, between the Canal and the Equator. Reloading supplies and equipment is in VERY short supply up in the U.S. right now. I haven't visited Argentina since 1993 and have little idea of the gun laws and such. I do know that exporting reloading/shooting equipment from the US is a real problem due to the strict export laws. Have you checked with the Brazilian supply houses? I know they USED to have 38-40 as I had a CBC 38-40 cartridge in my collection up until we left there in '94. I've not done much looking in their online stores, but under Bolsonaro the whole gun industry has prospered as he's loosened a lot of the regulations. Brazil may be your best bet for finding the equipment you need. Do you have access to empty brass and projetiles?

¡Saludos desde el Eje Cafetero!
Paul - in Pereira


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ectrigger
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by ectrigger »

Hi Paul!
I was trying to get them in the US because I have family over there and my son is visiting them next month (for the moment).
I can bring dies and molds, but for brass, bullets or presses, I need a to fill a request for a permit, and today the office that gives those permits isn't working because of covid.
And my son can't bring them, because he doesn't have a guns licence.
Next time I go, if everything is ok, I would like to bring some brass and molds.
Last time I asked one of those permits I brought more than 25 pounds of Hornady and Speer bullets in different calibers.
I just started to cast some bullets, but I haven't reloaded with them yet.

Dies I can find here, at 120 usd. .44-40 and .45 Colt ammo is about 50 usd the box of Magtech Cowboy.
Haven't seen any .38-40.
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Griff
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Re: .45 ACP Leverguns

Post by Griff »

Starline is showing .38-40 as "backordered". Earlier this year they showed 45 Colt the same way, yet allowed orders. My brass arrived about a week later! If you have a contact in the US maybe you can work something out.
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