Annealing bullets Paco's way frustration

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:43 pm

I sized, then oven heated the wheel weight + tin cast bullets.
It seems to always come out to about 19BHN at 430F for an hour.
So, when I want to anneal the bullets that I put in a shallow pan of water with the noses exposed, I don't seem to see a color change (indicating it's annealled) even after a minute with my butane torch.
How long does it take with the torch cranked up?
Is it possible to put in several bullets at the same time using a butane torch?
I never really notice a color change when melting ingots, it just stays gray.
Anybody have a detailed description of Paco's method?
I'm just trying to soften the tips for my cast 260gr(+GC) .41 Magnum bullets traveling at about 1620fps on top of 20.5 gr H110.
An accurate round out of my 1894S Marlin that I want to use for wild California pigs!

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:30 pm

I don't know what Paco's method is..but temperature marker sticks are available and may be of use to you... these are made to change color at a specific temp.. mark your bullets.. heat them with your torch until the mark changes color...I think Brownells sell them.. Some welding supply stores have them too... Here's a another approach to making soft nosed cast bullets ... good luck
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsfo ... maman.html

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:52 pm

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:35 pm

Here's the method I'm asking about:

A Paco secret...
Hereâ€™s a trick I write about often...to get soft nose and hard body cast bullets, cast them hard and hot, frosty bullets are better no matter what the experts say... drop them from the mold into water to temper....then place your bullets standing in water to their shoulder just above the top crimp groove, so the nose is exposed....take a butane torch and run it over the noses sticking out of the water...this detempers just the noses, so you in effect have a soft nose-hard body, cast bullet. It takes a little practice...but as soon as you see the bullet noses change color at all, pull the flame...or the nose will slump over...it doesnâ€™t take much flame time, especially on small caliber bullets. Cast bullets made this way will resist fouling but will expand in any size animal....from rabbits on up.

Bronco · Post by **Bronco** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:05 am

Howdy,
I have done it this way. It is not so much a color change as it is like the tips get real shiny like mercury. Again they loose the gray lead color and get real shiny.

Hope that helps, the method works great for me. A lot easier that pouring soft noses and inserting them into the mold to pour the shank.

John

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:35 am

Bronco wrote:Howdy,
I have done it this way. It is not so much a color change as it is like the tips get real shiny like mercury. Again they loose the gray lead color and get real shiny.

Hope that helps, the method works great for me. A lot easier that pouring soft noses and inserting them into the mold to pour the shank.

John

Thanks. Now it is clear.

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:01 am

So. not having any temperature crayons yet, I just flamed a group of 10 bullets (with their tips exposed above the water) with my butane torch, for about 90-120 seconds.
Now, I see the that they are very slightly darker at what was the water line, to the top; just under 1/4" or so.

Maybe that's about it, then.
I'll have to start saving my newspaper to soak them and bring to the range; and try shooting through them to compare.

Pepe Ray · Post by **Pepe Ray** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:30 pm

You can check your progress by taking 2 boolets, one treated and one Not treated, place them nose to nose within the jaws of a vise and squeeze. Obvious results will show your success.
Pepe Ray

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:40 pm

Pepe Ray wrote:You can check your progress by taking 2 boolets, one treated and one Not treated, place them nose to nose within the jaws of a vise and squeeze. Obvious results will show your success.
Pepe Ray

Great idea, Pepe Ray! I will do it tonite. Thanks

Kapincrunch · Post by **Kapincrunch** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:14 pm

otteray
i am very interested in your results. my question is, how deeply did the heat treatment work? I wonder if just the surface is now soft or if the entire bullet that was above the water line was effected. Please post whatever you find.
Jim

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:38 pm

Couple of thoughts: It may take a week or more to attain max hardness from the heat treated bullets. You may find that if you wait that week, you may be more toward the mid 20s on BH. Second, the softness that you attain from the anneal will never be lower than the same alloy that had been air cooled. If you want the nose to be softer, you will need to start with a softer alloy, before you heat treat. WWs cut 50/50 with pure lead and no more than 1% tin (actually you don't need the tin at all) will still heat treat to ~20 BH . Then the anneal of the nose will make for an even softer nose.

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:55 pm

Why nor leave the entire bullet soft, size to .001 over bore (not groove dia) and paper patch. You can take pure lead to 2200 and BHN 14.5 to 15.0 to 3000fps with no leading and accuracy to rival jacketed.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:25 pm

Here's pure WW ( I don't need tin to fill out on these) air cooled. The mushroomed ones are into wet clay and the cupped one was into water jugs.

450 grain 460" diameter at 1650 fps @ 100 m.

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:20 pm

pdawg.shooter wrote:Why nor leave the entire bullet soft, size to .001 over bore (not groove dia) and paper patch. You can take pure lead to 2200 and BHN 14.5 to 15.0 to 3000fps with no leading and accuracy to rival jacketed.

My Marlin 1894S.41 mag has the microgroove barrel, necessitating hard cast.
With hard cast (WW + tin, heat treated) gas checked bullets oversized .001", I have zero leading and it is is very accurate.
The average BHN for a few batches of heat treated or just quenched that I have made for the last year has been about 19 BHN, after they have sat around for a couple months.
This is the bullet that I want to use for pig hunting here on the Central California coast.
I'm guessing (hoping?) that the noses are annealed back to about 12BHHN, but I will be bringing samples to a friend at our club that has a tester and also will try some out at the range as well with some thick kind of target media.
Never having shot a big wild boar, maybe I am going overboard or over kill.
Tycer's examples are impressive, but those are from a 45-70.
The meplat on my 265gr and 245g .412" bullet is about .265"or.270"

I did take Pepe Ray's advise; in a vise as tight as I could manage, the soft nose became depressed and the unsoftened, still hard cast bullet looked unscathed.
While at first I did a batch of several at a time with a torch , I now think it is better to do just a couple at a time, so the flame is always on them, thus making a more consistant outcome.
While I haven't noticed any bullets getting real shiny while heating, I do notice that they are a much darker gray on the nose, down to the water line ( 1/8"-1/4".) Yes, the water gets hot in my shallow small container.
Please note that I never have hunted for anything other than rabbit, quail or dove so this is all just gleened from what I have learned from my late dad, many articles, this and other levergun sites and books.
No real world experience yet, so take my results with a grain of salt, please.

Kapincrunch · Post by **Kapincrunch** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:24 am

otteray
will the lead bullet ban in parts of CA effect where you hope to hunt?

I dont think you are going "overkill." Pigs can be pretty tough and you might find the occasional monster pig. I would want to know that the bullet will do the job.
Jim

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:38 pm

Kapincrunch wrote:otteray
will the lead bullet ban in parts of CA effect where you hope to hunt?

I dont think you are going "overkill." Pigs can be pretty tough and you might find the occasional monster pig. I would want to know that the bullet will do the job.
Jim

Santa Cruz County is not one of the banned areas!

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:15 pm

Tycer wrote:Here's pure WW ( I don't need tin to fill out on these) air cooled. The mushroomed ones are into wet clay and the cupped one was into water jugs.

450 grain 460" diameter at 1650 fps @ 100 m.

Tycer, I started thinking about your results. Pretty nice, my good man!
I may make some and not heat treat/ anneal the nose,etc.
They might cause leading; but if they are accurate and they can hit a pig where I am aiming, your information may just be the ticket!

And to pdawg - I've never paper patched. Don't the bullets require a different shape (more conical, not cylindrical, that is to say, tapered with a smaller base section)?
I'd love to try it if it works with my cast bullets.
Seems like everyone that answered me had good input.
Thanks, guys.
Still looking for the pigs.
I may have to get up earlier (yawn)

Annealing bullets Paco's way frustration

Annealing bullets Paco's way frustration

Testing

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