Annealing failure!

[TedH]

My 45-70 brass I've been using with black powder in my Sharps has been loaded many times and I began to notice varying neck tension, which I thought wouldn't be good for accuracy. I read up on various methods of annealing, but have never tried it myself. Processing my brass after the last firings, I noticed a couple developed cracks in the neck so I figured it needed to be annealed. I did what most seemed to suggest, small propane torch, rotating the cases till the necks just begin to glow in a dimly lit room. Then dumped them in water. I was interested to see how much better my groups would be now with consistent neck tension. Wow! Much, much WORSE! My best load had been shooting about 1.5 MOA, now it's more like 3 MOA with the only change being the brass annealing. I accidentally let one roll off the bench onto the concrete, it landed on its side and put a flat side on the edge of the neck. Obviously the brass is much, much softer now, and appears to have lost its elasticity. Neck tension is basically zero. Which I know isn't good for my groups since I tried some BP loads with unsized cases in the past.

So, I'm thinking this brass is just done for. Was going to order a new batch from Midway, but to no surprise these days, it's ALL out of stock. Great. Just in time for my first silhouette match this weekend.

[harry]

My 45-70 brass I've been using with black powder in my Sharps has been loaded many times and I began to notice varying neck tension, which I thought wouldn't be good for accuracy. I read up on various methods of annealing, but have never tried it myself. Processing my brass after the last firings, I noticed a couple developed cracks in the neck so I figured it needed to be annealed. I did what most seemed to suggest, small propane torch, rotating the cases till the necks just begin to glow in a dimly lit room. Then dumped them in water. I was interested to see how much better my groups would be now with consistent neck tension. Wow! Much, much WORSE! My best load had been shooting about 1.5 MOA, now it's more like 3 MOA with the only change being the brass annealing. I accidentally let one roll off the bench onto the concrete, it landed on its side and put a flat side on the edge of the neck. Obviously the brass is much, much softer now, and appears to have lost its elasticity. Neck tension is basically zero. Which I know isn't good for my groups since I tried some BP loads with unsized cases in the past.

So, I'm thinking this brass is just done for. Was going to order a new batch from Midway, but to no surprise these days, it's ALL out of stock. Great. Just in time for my first silhouette match this weekend.

Glowing is not good. Dark room with only the light from the propane torch for light when the case mouth it a redish brown (more Brown than red)dunk it.

[J Miller]

Another method is to dunk the cases into molten lead till the cases are hot enough the lead doesn't stick to them.
I've never done this, but I do have an article on it from an old shooting magazine. I'm gonna try it ... some day.

Joe

[GregT]

Hey, TedH, how many empty .45/70 casings do you need? I'm up here in Hayward, Wisconsin, but priority mail might make it. I have Remington, Winchester and I think another brand. I could get them in the mail on Tuesday. Let me know asap.
GregT
Hayward, Wisconsin

[flatnose]

The cases will come back after firing a couple of times. I have found a loss of accuracy with almost all brass and calibers after annealing. The first reload of the case usually gives me larger group size, until the case hardens up a little and neck tension returns again. The trick is to not over anneal the neck.
You can get a feel for when you have enough annealing, by pressing down the case neck on a flat surface, until you can put a flat on the neck. You need to experiment as to what will be best for you.
By not over annealing I can get fairly good accuracy on the first loading, which I use for warming up. For most of my shooting, best accuracy has always been on the 3rd, 4th and 5th firing of the case, or until the neck gets too springy. Even new brass needs to 'settle' before getting the best out of it.

[GregT]

I have tried another way of annealing that will eliminate over cooking the brass. Deprime as usual. Holding the case with your thumb and finger, rotate the case in the flame of a propane torch UNTIL YOU CAN BEGIN TO FEEL THE HEAT IN YOUR FINGERS. Do not hold anything beyond the initial feeling of heat. Immediately drop the case into cold water. No, you will not get burned! You will accomplish the annealing without over doing it. I used to use the "submerse the base of the case in water, heat neck of case until red", etc. And I also over softened the brass and just disposed of the cases... This method is quicker and you don't need a dark room.
GregT
Hayward, Wi

[Griff]

I have tried another way of annealing that will eliminate over cooking the brass. Deprime as usual. Holding the case with your thumb and finger, rotate the case in the flame of a propane torch UNTIL YOU CAN BEGIN TO FEEL THE HEAT IN YOUR FINGERS. Do not hold anything beyond the initial feeling of heat. Immediately drop the case into cold water. No, you will not get burned! You will accomplish the annealing without over doing it. I used to use the "submerse the base of the case in water, heat neck of case until red", etc. And I also over softened the brass and just disposed of the cases... This method is quicker and you don't need a dark room.
GregT
Hayward, Wi

Ditto!

[TedH]

GregT, I appreciate the offer. I scoured the net last night and found some new Remington brass at Bud's. Got some on the way that will hopefully make it before this weekend. Thanks for the generous offer, but I should be in good shape now. I'll keep using these old cases for practice and see if they get any better like flatnose suggests.

[3leggedturtle]

TedH; since brass is work hardened. Couldn't you run them in and out of your sizing die a few times to get the case mouth "more" consistent for your 1st firing after annealing?

I have been reading about annealing and have some cases I want to try it out on.

GregT; have you ever tried cases as small as 22 Hornet? Your the 1st one to mention about the accuracy after annealing. Things like that you just don't know till you do it. Nice to know that if it happens, doesn't mean I did anything wrong. thanks 3leg

[TedH]

After being "overheated", I don't know if simply work hardening them again will bring back the elasticity that is needed for good bullet tension? Might be worth a try though. I was reading on Starline's websight about annealing, and they say after it's been overheated, there is no saving it.

[3leggedturtle]

After being "overheated", I don't know if simply work hardening them again will bring back the elasticity that is needed for good bullet tension? Might be worth a try though. I was reading on Starline's websight about annealing, and they say after it's been overheated, there is no saving it.

I dont know how you are, but when I am told something is ruined, I wanna know all how's and why's thereof. Does being red hot change the molecular make up or what? I'll be googling about it some more. Hopefully more knowledgable and experienced members have an answer.

[Chuck 100 yd]

What J Miller said +1. Annealing in the lead pot works well. You have a known temp, if you have a thermometer. The only thing is how long to hold it there??? When I tried that method on some reworked .308`s to .243 , I held it to the count of four and that seemed to work out well.
These days I just prefer to get some new brass when they get to needing annealing.

[GregT]

GregT, I appreciate the offer. I scoured the net last night and found some new Remington brass at Bud's.

TedH,
OK, glad to know you found some! If there is a hang-up in the shipment of the new cases, give me a shout and we'll put some in your hands even if they are a bit late.
GregT

[flatnose]

A little video I found on the subject, along with some informative reading. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[Hobie]

I have tried another way of annealing that will eliminate over cooking the brass. Deprime as usual. Holding the case with your thumb and finger, rotate the case in the flame of a propane torch UNTIL YOU CAN BEGIN TO FEEL THE HEAT IN YOUR FINGERS. Do not hold anything beyond the initial feeling of heat. Immediately drop the case into cold water. No, you will not get burned! You will accomplish the annealing without over doing it. I used to use the "submerse the base of the case in water, heat neck of case until red", etc. And I also over softened the brass and just disposed of the cases... This method is quicker and you don't need a dark room.
GregT
Hayward, Wi

This is what I do. Works really well for cases this size like the .45-75 WCF and .45-70 Govt. Small cases can be a real pain!

[Chuck 100 yd]

Hobie said... "Small cases can be a real pain!"

Now THAT is the truth. Keep lots of burn ointment on hand and avoid using your trigger finger if at all possible. I would suggest getting someone else to do it for you.

[GregT]

You know, when you think about it, a casing like the .22 Hornet or something at least as small and thin, probably does not need a lot of time in the flame to accomplish an anneal. I'll bet you could still hold it with a pair of work gloves on. You would still feel the heat as it started. How about some real adventurous soul here trying it out on a small casing? I'll bet a .32/20 size would not burn the fingers...
GregT