Some range days are disappointing - 22 Hornet this time

[AJMD429]

Decided to take the Ruger 9mm carbine out and see if the red-dot scope was zeroed (I have a habit of swapping scopes and usually tie an orange surveyor tape around any not-yet-sighted-in optics, but sometimes forget).



Since I'd bought a box of 35 grain factory loads for 22 Hornet, I decided to continue my 'selection' process between the Hornets I got a ways back. I had hoped that I'd be more impressed with these loads than the rather mediocre results (below) at 50 yards last summer with 45 grain factory fodder. (http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=43582)



I'd planned to shoot them both and then sell the one I liked least - after today I'm tempted to sell both. These three 5-shot groups were all at 50 yards from the bench...



As you can see, the Savage slightly better than the Ruger, but then I shot the 9mm Ruger Carbine, using only a red-dot sight, and five miscellaneous reloads from the 'shoot-em-up' pile. The 9mm was just about as good, though all of them shot to the left today for some reason (probably listening to too much NPR lately).

I guess what irritates me is that I think of the 22 Hornet as a way to "sacrifice a bit of power vs. the 223, in exchange for less muzzle-blast and greater accuracy under 100 yards". Well, I can shoot better than this with my 223(s), and I DO have hearing-protectors; for that matter, it looks like my 9mm Carbine hits as accurately, even though it uses a cheap red-dot scope vs. the 12-16x scopes worn by the Hornets. In fact, the 'beater' Marlin 336 I got a few years ago in 30-30 shoots cloverleafs at the same distance, so I'm not sure what the point of a 22 Hornet is if it can't do far better than either of these guns does.

Maybe I should sell BOTH of them and get a 17 Hornet.
Maybe I should be more patient and work up quality RELOADS that shoot better.
On the other hand, I think a truly good firearm should shoot better than that even with factory ammunition.

[Hobie]

My Contender Hornet barrel will do an honest sub 1" at 100 with the 35 gr. Hornady bullet over Lil'Gun. It will also do it with the 40 gr. VMAX. It doesn't do that with factory ammo. I think it is because of the small case capacity that the Hornet is especially sensitive to minor changes in a load, something that you get with changing primers, powder charges (by even a 10th of a grain) or mixing brass.

[Lefty Dude]

Doc;

I have yet to see a 22 Hornet Rifle shoot Factory ammo any better than the groups you shot show.

BTW; there are two 22 hornet factory load sizes. Bullets that are .223" (older style rifles) and the new .224". Pull your factory fodder and mic the bullets.
You might just be shooting the .223" in a modern .224" barreled rifle.

You can still buy Sierra 22 Hornet bullets in sized .223".

This is kinda-like the factory 44WCF ammo, Both Remington & Winchester load with .426"-.427", this is for the many old 44WCF Rifles that are still out in the public and if they were shot with the modern .228".229" this might cause a serious issue.

Don't sell those Hornets too soon.

[olyinaz]

Maybe I should sell BOTH of them and get a 17 Hornet.

It sure looks good from a sizzling ballistics perspective and is reportedly shooting well with factory ammo.

[AJMD429]

Guess I'll have to break down and reload some ammo and see if at least one of the guns will do better if I 'baby' it a bit.

The most accurate other rifle I've shot is my 6mm Rem Ruger M-77V, and it will shoot sub-MOA with factory or sloppy handloads, and goes sub-half-MOA with handloads if I bother to actually weigh or measure the powder charge - so I guess that spoiled me.

[Sixgun]

Doc,
Are the guns new? If so, polish the bore with JB paste as most guns that are factory new (and mass produced.......quickly) have rough edges and need to be smooth before they perform. This roughness affects .22's more than the bigger calibers.

Loosen the stock bolt a bit.

Also, it sounds like your hurrying and have already developed a negative attitude. Slow down, use a quality benchrest and think "one hole"------------------------------Sixgun

[Chuck 100 yd]

An article on the .17 hornet in one of the shooting rags last month said...
"I have been shooting and loading for this thing now for a YEAR and haven't had any good results yet."

The hornet is a temperamental cartridge at best. But, once you find a good load it does pretty good.
It is a handloaders toy for sure.

[Udy]

I share your frustration. I have had a ruger 77 .22hornet for about 15 years now. I haven't played with it for a while, because every time I do I get frustrated with it. I have heard good things about the cz rifles, but I can't find one to look at. Wish I could test one, particurly the one I would be buying, but that aint gona happen. I like the cartridge, but to me it needs to be a 1/2ish MOA to get any use out of the thing, because in my mind it is a hundrud yard sagerat rifle. One and a half inches don't cut it. I have shot MOA groops with mine, but they are more a fluke than reality. I have tried so many differnt loads and bullet weights that I think I am about out of ideas for mine. Some where terrible, and some were better than others. The picture bellow is about the best I can consistantly do with my ruger.
I don't know much about the savage, but the ruger has inherant problems from the get go. The magazine won't let you play with bullet seating lenght onaccount of you limited to the mag lenght, and ruger bored the chamber to deep in my opinion. Its said the split bolt is a problem on the 77 also not giving a consistant bolt lock up. And the one problem that seems to plague all hornets is the 1/16 twist. Now I don't claim to know that is a problem on my own merit, but I hold a lot of stock in a friend of mine that use to work for Kimber when they built there rifles in Clackamas. Since they moved to NY he has been custom building about every kinda wildcatted Hornet design you can dream up to rich folks. That is his job, and he says that they should be a 1/10 twist, and thats when they start coming together, assuming you build the rest of the rifle right. Wish I could aford to have him build me one.

100 yard groop

[crs]

ajmd429,
After observing the accuracy and effectiveness of my .22 Hornet(seen below) with factory Winchester 45 grain ammo, a friend bought and scoped a Ruger 77 Hornet and was very disappointed that he could not get any factory ammo to shoot close to one moa. After losing two wild turkeys shot with his Ruger, he stopped using it.



This rifle has taken some turkeys with the shotgun and Hornet barrels; the rifle shots were from 75 to 150 yards and were all one shot kills with no misses. Using Hornady Vmax ammo, it also doubles as my close range varmint rifle, again good out to 150 yards.

Who knows why some rifles shoot some ammo well and others do not? However, now you do have a chance to get rid of two non-shooters and buy an Anchutz or CZ .22 Hornet which have excellent reputations for accuracy with the .22 Hornet cartridge.

[jnyork]

I have been messing with the .22 Hornet cartridge for many years, it's one of my favorites. I bought one of those Rugers when they first came out, probably got the first one in the state of Wyoming. Boy was I happy, what a nice looking little gun, couldn't wait to get to the range. To my sorrow, jaw-dropping inaccuracy was the order of the day, just simply awful, best group was about 3". After screwing with it for a couple of years, during which I crowned the barrel, bedded it twice, etc etc, tried every combination of powder, primer and bullet know to man, still couldn't hit a hat with it, took it to the gunshow and traded it off.

Got a CZ a while later when they first came on the market, boy what a difference!! 10 shots in 1 1/4 " with almost anything, an inch or better with Lil Gun powder and 35 grain VMax. CZ is a great rifle, looks as good as it shoots, "from my cold dead fingers"

I also have a Savage 23D that shoots almost as well, lots of fun with it as well.

In my experience, you can shoot the .223 and .224 bullets in either rifle with no noticable difference in accuracy or pressure signs.

[65bee]

The .22 Hornet is an extremely finicky cartridge to load for. My Dad, who was a avid shooter in the 1930s and owned some of the first Hornet rifles made, and shot hundreds of woodchucks with them, told me 50 years ago that finding a non-tempramental Hornet is very difficult. He said some Hornets change points of impact from day to day depending on the ambient temperature. Even a few degrees difference made a big change on the target. Very frustrating! I have owned perhaps a dozen Winchester Model 43 rifles in .22 Hornet caliber (also .218 Bee), and found them all to be pretty consistent and accurate. They are a great little rifle, despite what some gun writers have said about them. However, I have also owned several Ruger Hornet rifles and none were what I would call good shooters, and quickly disposed of them. For that matter, I have never found the average sporter Ruger 77 to be particularly accurate in any caliber. Some shot O.K., but most were nothing to write home about.

[Bullard4075]

Being a real Hornet fan I've worked with them quite a bit. Never could get factory ammo
of any brand to beat a good hand load. Had a Ruger 77/22 that was a real tackdriver but
only after I shimmed the bolt, floated the barrel and developed a LilGun/pistol primer/40gr Nosler
load for it. Sold the rifle because I tired of foollin with the miserable ruger magazines that would never
feed properly. My Contender hornet will perform with any reasonable load. Now a K-Hornet the cases
last longer. It sure is a killing fool on 13 gr of powder.

[AJMD429]

Now a K-Hornet the cases last longer.

Why is that...???

[awp101]

Now a K-Hornet the cases last longer.

Why is that...???

As I recall (the Ackley books aren't in front of me ATM), blowing the shoulder forward also reduces the body taper. Reducing the body taper adds to case life.

[jerry b]

Your Hornet groups vertically. This suggests to me that the issues are mostly load, not rifles.

In my experience, the Hornet responds dramatically to good handloads. I had consistant 1/2" or better 100 yd groups after much load work. Like Hobie suggested, Li'l Gun is a great powder for the Hornet. My rifle (77/22) liked IMR 4227 with the 40 gr Vmax and Li'l GUn with the Nosler 40 gr BT, with the nod going to the Nosler/Li'l Gun load for accuracy and performance. For my rifle, I settled on the following points: neck size only and use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for consistent bullet pull; WW cases, WSR primers; seat primers with a hand tool. Consistency, consistency is needed for this small cartridge. I originally seated bullets to just clear the lands, but in the long-throated Ruger, that gave me a single shot. Later, I went for standard overall length so cartridges fit the magazine, and accuracy stayed very good.

The Ruger's bolt design gives some folks a fit (boocoup slop between the two halves). Some guys shimmed between the two pieces and made a difference. I got the accuracy I wanted with just load development, so I didn't go that route. I did, however, work with the forend tip of the stock, experimenting with free-floating and/or slight upward pressure. My rifle responded positively to a thin shim at the forend with the barrel otherwise free-floated.

Your mileage may vary, and my experience may not help at all. Still, potential is there, and don't let anyone tell you that the Hornet is a lousy cartridge. It just takes TLC, which makes a good-shooting Hornet a point of great pride. A great walkabout rifle.

Check this out for options to consider: http://ct-precision.com/
I have no experience with them or any other gunsmith; just food for thought.

[AJMD429]

Your Hornet groups vertically. This suggests to me that the issues are mostly load, not rifles.

In my experience, the Hornet responds dramatically to good handloads. I had consistant 1/2" or better 100 yd groups after much load work. Like Hobie suggested, Li'l Gun is a great powder for the Hornet. My rifle (77/22) liked IMR 4227 with the 40 gr Vmax and Li'l GUn with the Nosler 40 gr BT, with the nod going to the Nosler/Li'l Gun load for accuracy and performance. For my rifle, I settled on the following points: neck size only and use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for consistent bullet pull; WW cases, WSR primers; seat primers with a hand tool. Consistency, consistency is needed for this small cartridge. I originally seated bullets to just clear the lands, but in the long-throated Ruger, that gave me a single shot. Later, I went for standard overall length so cartridges fit the magazine, and accuracy stayed very good.

The Ruger's bolt design gives some folks a fit (boocoup slop between the two halves). Some guys shimmed between the two pieces and made a difference. I got the accuracy I wanted with just load development, so I didn't go that route. I did, however, work with the forend tip of the stock, experimenting with free-floating and/or slight upward pressure. My rifle responded positively to a thin shim at the forend with the barrel otherwise free-floated.

Your mileage may vary, and my experience may not help at all. Still, potential is there, and don't let anyone tell you that the Hornet is a lousy cartridge. It just takes TLC, which makes a good-shooting Hornet a point of great pride. A great walkabout rifle.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

I have some Lil'Gun, and got a good new set of Lee collet neck-sizing and factory-crimp dies, and an assortment of Hornet-specific bullets. So I guess I just need a weekend of spare time (THAT is the hardest part ) and some patience (that's a close second ). What I'd like to do is try to work up loads for both and just keep the one that shoots best for me (and maybe use the $$ to get a 17 Hornet so I can have some other project I don't have time for ). I'll confess I like the Ruger's heft and build better.

I would think that 'bedding' a two-piece bolt would work as well as 'shimming' it, though I'd have to get it apart or look at the design to see.