Range Report - 1886 40-82

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:36 pm

I have been gearing up for some time to start testing loads to push through my 40-82. It has an oversize bore, so I needed to get .410 bullets. I ordered some bullets from LTD Custom Cast Bullets and while I was waiting for them to arrive, a friend gave me some .410 bullets he cast for a modern 40-65. I loaded up some loads and found out, as predicted by some of you who have loaded the 40-82, (Sixgun & KirkD), that the casing was too big for the chamber. So, I had to wait for a Lee three jaw chuck and the drill attachment to come so I could turn down the outside of the casing necks with a flat file.

Once I got them to fit the gun, I went up on the hill and shot a box full, but was disappointed in the results. The bullets were too long and I came face to face with the Greenhill formula. The maximum length that the 1:28 twist will stabilize is about 0.9 inch, and these bullets were over an inch long.

I finally did get the bullets I ordered and loaded up a box and headed to the range. That first shoot was pretty much spent messing with the sights and just getting used to the rifle. The results were pretty inconclusive. I was finally able to put together some test loads last week to begin the process of finding out what this gun likes. I had five loads with four shots each.

I loaded three loads using 34, 35, and 36 grains of 3031 with a cornmeal filler, and two loads with 25 grains of 5744 - one load without a filler and one with cornmeal.

Friday night, I went up on the hill near my house and only had enough time to fire three of the sets before the light dimmed and my old eyes couldn't focus on the sights and the target. Since I was trying to shoot as accurately as possible, I didn't want to fire just to be firing! (Although that is fun too!

)

I wanted to find out how the 5744 performed with and without a filler, so that is where I started. This picture shows the two targets side by side.

As you can see, there is quite a difference between the two groups. I was shooting at 35 yards because I had a good sight picture with the open sights. Sure wish I had 25 year old eyes again.

When I was shooting, I didn't look at the bullet location until alll four shots of the set were fired. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw the three shots that were touching in the fillered load.

This next picture is of a target I shot with 36 grains of 3031 plus cornmeal.

This group is actaully a bit smaller than the filled 5744 load, but is spread out a little more. If you overlay the targets, five out of eight shots can be covered by a quarter. For a gun that was built in 1887, I think that is pretty cool!!

George

ArcticGoose · Post by **ArcticGoose** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:47 pm

Very interesting! I love to hear about reloading the old cartridges. Looking forward to seeing the rest of your results. How do you determine how much filler to use?

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:16 pm

Thus far I just fill it to the rim of the cartridge and seat the bullet. This compresses the powder and filler enough to keep them from mixing it up. I measured the total bullet weight and found up to a 5 grain difference in the weight. I attribute the difference to the filler weight, but will be checking the weight of the brass too, in case there is a significant difference between cases. The bullets are within a half grain, and I am measuring the powder for each load.

I will also test toilet paper filler, because it is provides a fairly consistent amount of material in each load. TP seems to be easier to deal with if it works well.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:19 pm

Geobru, that cornmeal filler sure does improve things. I've never had the courage to use cornmeal, since it does not compress much compared to T.P. and must surely boost pressure significantly. Although I recommend toilet paper filler, properly used, I wouldn't want to take responsibility for recommending corn meal, although I certainly hear of various folks who have used it. Do you know of somewhere where a fellow can read up on the use of cornmeal for filler? I'm interested, but don't want to be experimenting with it for my guns. I'm not saying you shouldn't be using it, I'm just cautious about me using it. I would be very interested in the chronographed velocity of your loads. That would give us a very good idea of what the corn meal does to pressure.

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:17 am

KirkD Wrote:

Do you know of somewhere where a fellow can read up on the use of cornmeal for filler?

KirkD,
Mike Venturino used it in 40-82 loads that he worked up and chronicled in an article titled, Loading the Winchester 40-82 in Handloader 84, and in an article titled, Winchester 40-82 Again, in Handloader 96. He tried kapok filler too, but was having trouble with accuracy. In the first article, he recalled that he had heard of the old timers using Cream of Wheat and cornmeal, so he tried it and it eliminated hangfires, variation in velocity, and gave consistent accuracy. If you don't have these articles, let me know and I will send you a scan of them.

The first loads that I shot through this rifle were ordered from Gad Custom Cartridges. Bernold said that he has been reloading for the old guns for 30 plus years, and his load of choice for the 40-82 is 30 grains of 4198 with a cornmeal filler. I got a 4" group with those cartridges, but the bullets were undersized for my bore.

I am keeping things on the low end because I do not have a chronograph (yet) to monitor the velocity of the loads. One difference I did notice between the two 5744 loads was that the filled loads had a sharper report and a bit more recoil than the unfilled loads. Venturino mentions a similar phenomenon with the loads he was using in one of the articles. The primers on the unfilled loads were protruding slightly, which I understand is caused by loads that are on the light end and don't push the casing back against the breech bolt.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:40 am

Geobru, I'd be much obliged if you could email me a scan. You can send it to kirk@newscholars.com . That is fascinating. If Mike Venturino used it and actually published an article on it, then you can bet it must be safe, since ol Mike tends to be a more cautious man than I, and I'm cautious. Experience trumps armchair theorizing any day and it sounds like there has been a history of experience on this. Thanks for the post.

The louder report and increased recoil is a sure indicator of increased pressure and velocity. I have found with TP filler that I need to reduce the powder load to maintain the same velocity as a non-filler load. Given this, I would expect that whatever velocity one wishes to obtain, if the non-filler load gives it, then the filler load needs to be reduced accordingly. This is where a chronograph is useful. In fact, if one experiments with loads, I'd say a chronograph is essential. It has saved my bacon on at least one occasion.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:01 am

Looking in my old reloading record book, I found a note I wrote in 1954 for a 35 W.C.F. M. 95 I owned. "Case filled and packed above powder with Quick Oats. --- shows good accuracy."

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:38 am

geobru... Nice report... great results...I like your method of thinning the cases.. IIRC George Nonte used corn meal in a Speer Manual..Separate from the standard reloading recipes in an article about shooting the oldies..

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:40 am

If I get enough info on this, I might get up enough courage to experiment with some other straight-walled, black powder cartridges.

longarm4146 · Post by **longarm4146** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:18 pm

Kirk, what is your method for using TP filler? I just loaded some 40-65 rounds for my 86 that is just about finished with its facelift. I loaded Meister 260s (.408) with 24 grs of 4198 and 22 grs of 5744.....i also took 5 of each and added 1/2 sheet of double ply that i seperated and only used one half thickness....folded 4 times I think and then rolled into case...I wanted to be able to compare loads with and without filler. This didnt seem to be a lot of filler...do u think it is safe.....last time I chronnyed the loads above i was getting in the 1200 fps range.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:03 pm

I'd be interested in rthose scans also. Would it be too much to ask? sass93 at sbcglobal dot net.

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:43 pm

Griff wrote:

I'd be interested in rthose scans also. Would it be too much to ask?

I spent about 2 years locating as much information on reloading the 40-82 as I could - while I was putting aside a little money now and then to finance my entry into the reloading world. It was in that search that I ran across this forum. I have learned a lot from reading various posts on this forum and would be happy to share the information that I have accumulated.

KirkD wrote

Given this, I would expect that whatever velocity one wishes to obtain, if the non-filler load gives it, then the filler load needs to be reduced accordingly.

I agree 100% with this. The non-fillered load was 26 grains and I reduced it by 1 grain. I felt fairly safe at that level because there were other loads on the list of loads that I have uncovered that used up to 29 grains of 5744 in the 40-82. (that is from memory, I will have to check on that) The 26 grain load of 5744 came from one of Venturino's articles. I have no intention of trying to load up this old 40-82. All I am looking for is an accurate hunting load that is easy on the old girl. I can see that at some point though, a chronograph is in my future.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:51 pm

longarm4146 wrote:Kirk, what is your method for using TP filler? I just loaded some 40-65 rounds for my 86 that is just about finished with its facelift. I loaded Meister 260s (.408) with 24 grs of 4198 and 22 grs of 5744.....i also took 5 of each and added 1/2 sheet of double ply that i seperated and only used one half thickness....folded 4 times I think and then rolled into case...I wanted to be able to compare loads with and without filler. This didnt seem to be a lot of filler...do u think it is safe.....last time I chronnyed the loads above i was getting in the 1200 fps range.

1/2 sheet of 1-ply is probably a bit scanty. You may want to increase it to 1 full sheet of 1-ply. I loosely fold it in half, then I loosely roll it into about a pencil thickness of a roll, then I loosely fold that roll in half and stuff it in the case, the two folded butt-ends first.

DavidS · Post by **DavidS** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:41 pm

I too have used the same loading data in the Rifle magazine article by Mike venturino. I used his load with the cream of wheat filler and while I got very good results. I did notice a jump in recoil and report also. I think what needs to be taken into account is the filler is not burned on firing and is giving the effect of a heavier bullet as it pushes it out of the barrel. I do find it interesting that AA5744 works better with a filler. I thought that it was not position sensitive. In the mean time when using a filler you should reduce the starting load by at least 5 to 10 percent to compencate for the weight of the filler. My 1886 40-82 was built in 1896 and the bore .406.

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:50 pm

My buddy and I load for two different 40-82's.

His likes 42.0 gr of 3031 with a 265 gr gas checked cast bullet. (1753 fps, SD 20)

Mine likes 28.0 gr of IMR 4198 with the same bullet. (1489 fps, SD 8 )

both loads use one sheet of single ply TP. I fold the sheet in half, and then fold it in half again lengthwise. I then roll this strip into a cylinder shape the approximate size of the cartridge mouth, and tamp it home with a pencil eraser. Load the bullet on top of that.

I used .411 diameter cast bullets from Leadheads for the .41 Mag/.405 Winchester. They are listed as 270 gr, but are actually 265 gr.

I then bought a custom sizer die from Lee ($25) built to .4085, and ran the bullets through that before loading. My bore slugs .4080.

Both rifles required outside turning of the neck.

We've had excellent results from this bullet, and these loads. The 40-82 is a wonderful cartridge if you can be patient and start with a plan.

Ed

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:08 pm

Kansas Ed wrote:

My buddy and I load for two different 40-82's.

His likes 42.0 gr of 3031 with a 265 gr gas checked cast bullet. (1753 fps, SD 20)

Does your buddy's 86 have a nickel steel barrel? I have been shying away from loads that get over 1600 fps.

Larry O · Post by **Larry O** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:14 pm

I can't help mentioning, after reading all of your comments, that I, also, load for the 40-82. In fact, I have three of them. One is a Rolly block, one an '86 and one a custom '71. When I started out on my project, there was nothing available so I done did my own research. I used my Rolly Block for test platform. I, also, ran into the Greenhill equation. I have 4 molds that I use. One is an original Winchester mold, one is a Lyman mold 403169, one is a custom Hoch mold and one is a paper patch mold made by Tom Ballard of Clancy, MT. All work great-with patience! I also have custom jacketed bullets that I got from Barnes and Buff Arms. Got a deer with one of those Barnes bullets a few years ago. It went in and out leaving the same size hole but the liver looked like chopped jellow. I pretty well stick to BP in the Rolly Block now. I use 50.0 grains of 3031 with a tuft of kapok over the powder. My oldest boy uses that load with a paper patched bullet of 260 grains up in Alaska. He has killed at least one Moose with that restored '86 that he has. In the '71, the best load is 58.0 grains of 3031 with the 260 grain jacketed flatnose Barnes. None of my loads have ever shown signs of pressure. Got a letter from P.O. Ackley when I started on my project and he told me that the first sign of pressure would be a sticking case. I did have one test load where that happened and that one was dropped likkety split. Hope all this has been of some help or interest.

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:25 pm

geobru wrote:Kansas Ed wrote:
My buddy and I load for two different 40-82's.

His likes 42.0 gr of 3031 with a 265 gr gas checked cast bullet. (1753 fps, SD 20)
Does your buddy's 86 have a nickel steel barrel? I have been shying away from loads that get over 1600 fps.

No, but then I'm not of the opinion that the speed alone is what ruins rifle barrels. But that is another thread entirely. Furthermore, these rifles probably won't see more than a couple hundred rounds a decade, as our main goal is to find a load that works, and move on to a different experiment. If speed alone were the only consideration, then the original factory loadings of the 25-20 WHV, and the 45-70 WHV wouldn't have been marketed. Additionally, Snooky shot most of his 86's near the 2000 fps mark, many with jacketed bullets. I'm sure that we will never equal the number of rounds through our rifles as what he did for his.

Ed