Does anyone have a 38/357 Rossi 92 lever action that will...

[flightsimmer]

Feed anything smoothly?
The reason I ask is because I have read posts that say theirs will feed any 38 special just fine but choke on 357 Magnums and I have read a few that said theirs will feed 357 Magnums just fine but hang on 38 specials. So, is there a middle ground?
I am well aware that bullet length and shape have a lot to do with it but I'm trying to find out if there are those that just seem to feed anything no matter what?

Now another question! I had a 20" Winchester 9422 lever action that as I remember, would feed flawlessly, I think because it had what is referred to as a positive feed cartridge system.
So, outside of keeping the true '92 heritage, could a reliable, positive feed rimmed pistol cartridge action be designed for a lever action '92 Win/Rossi/BrazTech that would feed anything, maybe even a retrofit kit? Just asking, I don't know if this has been discussed before or not.

Mine seem to do very well but 357 semi-wadcutters do hang alot.
The Hornady LeverEvolution ammo works great and I guess you could just stick to it but it is pricey for plinking.

[JerryB]

My Rossi 92 is an early Interarms import. It will feed .38 158 grain swc and .357 158 grain swc ammo with out any problem. It will also feed all the jacketed rounds too.

[44-40 Willy]

My Navy Arms 1892 was made by Rossi and feeds about everything 357 I put in it. When it was new and clunky, I tried 38s without much luck, but that was over a dozen years ago and a lot of ammo has went through it since then.

Bullet shape doesn't seem to matter much with it although I haven't tried wadcutters that are flush with the case mouth.

One of the things that I keep in mind about the 92's feeding is that it was originally designed to use a tapered cartridge (44-40, 38-40, 32-20) with a round nose flat point bullet. And here we are feeding straight cased pistol cartridges with odd bullet shapes into it. Considering that I think they do remarkably well with modern cartridges.

[Griff]

Do a search on "357 Rossi Feed" and you'll see other topics on the same subject.

Including my thoughts on the subject:

Hi guys. I'm a newbie to lever action. I bought a Rossi 92 .38/.357 and had a lot of fun shooting the .38 special rounds. They cycled without a hitch. The gun had problems feeding the .357 rounds though. I had to play with it quite a bit to get it to feed correctly each time. The front edge of the shell is hanging up as the lever is brought back up. The ammo I used was Remington UMC .357 Magnum 125 GR. JSP which was the only .357 ammo available. Is this common and is there a fix for it or is the ammo wrong?

The 1982 was designed for use with the bottle-necked cartridges of the day. The .25-20, .32WCF, .38WCF & .44WCF. These all have a overall length of around 1.6". Straight-walled cartridges mean that the back of the chamber is approximately the same diameter as the front. This leads to issues of timing for the rim of the cartridge to come up between the guides. In order to make this work with two fairly significant different lengths cartridges, the Rossi seems to use a "middle-of-the-road' approach to this. With some .38/.357 rifles it is nearly transparent, while on others, they prefer one length or the other.

However, to really understand your issue, some terms need to be defined. When you refer to the front edge of the shell, are you referring to the bullet nose? It also is necessary to define where the bullet is hanging up. But, generally speaking, the nose hangs up in two places, on the upper portion of the chamber, as the cartridge isn't being allowed to ride up the face of the ejector quick enough, or it's hanging up on the lower edge of the chamber, in which case it's a cartridge length issue. This latter issue could also be related to the length of the carrier, IOW, the carrier doesn't have enough room for the cartridge of a proper length.

Maybe a description of how the 1892 works is in order. With the lever closed, the bolt is in battery, and the carrier is down, allowing cartridges to be fed into the magazine thru the "spring cover"... yes, that's what it's called. As the lever is pushed down and forward, the bolt is pushed to the rear, and the last cartridge loaded is pushed upward in the nose up attitude as the lever reaches it's most forward position. The cartridge stop, (part of the left guide), holds any other rounds in the magazine.

When the lever is pulled rearward and raised, the bolt is pulled forward, in effect stripping the round from the carrier (some refer to this part as a "lifter" but "carrier" is correct) with the extended ejector pushing the round forward and up. The cartridge in held in this upward attitude until the rim encounters the slots in the guides, allowing the rear of the cartridge to move up into a level attitude and then into the chamber.

Pictures are important, because they can convey so much more information than we can impart thru written word alone. So:
Here are 3 different .38 Splecials that can run thru my son's 1892 Rossi. From left to right: 158gr RN, 158 gr JHP & 110 gr JHP. For some unknown reason, I can't find my dial caliper so I can't give the exact length of each, but suffice to say, they're all nominally the same length.


In this 2nd pic, the bolt is fully open to show the bullet laying against the ejector and the amount of space for a longer cartridge.


In the 3rd pic the lever is fully forward, and the carrier has lifted the nose of the cartridge thru the guides, ready to feed into the chamber.


The 4th pic I've started the pull the lever back to the point just before the rim pops up thru the slots in the guides.


My 5th & 6th pics show the rim below the guides and the nose entering the chamber.




The last pic shows the cartridge laying level and aligned with the chamber, about halfway in.


I hope that explains what you should be expecting to happen, whether with a .38Spl or .357 Mag. This rifle does feed Magnum length cartridges as long as I keep them to no more than SAAMI maximum length, 1.590". And maybe gives you a frame of reference by which to explain what is happening with your rifle.

As can be seen in this photo, the front edge of the case should be rolled into the cannelure to hold the bullet in position during recoil and to keep from being pushed back into the case under recoil in the tubular magazine. If the case isn't rolled, then yes, you could have an ammo problem. This can be a combination of the overall length and the nose shape. A levergun with a system that requires the cartridge to change "attitude", (goes from horizontal, to angled, back to horizontal), needs a rounded bullet nose. Truncated cones (a tri-angular shape with the top cut off), can also work well, as long as the meplat (flat area) is not too wide. Therefore wad-cutters and semi-wadcutters with their wide meplats can have problems feeding. Either the nose getting jammed against the top of the chamber as described above, or the sharp shoulder of the bullet (projectile) catches on the edge of the chamber.

Here's a sampling of both handloaded and factory .38 Specials and .357 Magnums and their respective overall lengths.

(Yep, found the dial caliper! It's mainly in the picture to provide the camera's center-weighted auto-focus something to focus on!)

For informational purposes, all of the jacketed & semi-wadcutter rounds are factory produced, along with the round nose PMC .38Spl on the bottom left, noted as being 1.529" long. The top left .38Spl and bottom left under the .357 label are my handloads with my handcast 158 gr roundnose.

The 3 Rossis (2 - 357s & 1 - 45Colt) I have are slicked up using my own process, developed thru the advice of friends and my own trial & error methods. But... I've had the opportunity to handle a Nate Kiowa Jones's slicked up Rossi; you won't go wrong following his instructions, or having him perform his magic for you. If you're handy, and want to try it yourself, you can try the mods described in Marauder's Rifle Tips... just remember, you can't put metal back! So caution is necessary.

[gamekeeper]

I had a Rossi S/S .357 that was reliable with factory and reloaded .38 & .357 magnum.

I wish I still had it...

[yooper2]

I have an older stainless model 92 in 357. It mainly gets fed lyman 358429 (or the HP version) in 38 Special cases. It does feed the Thompson bullet and Lee 358-158-RF in magnum brass, 358429 is too long for magnum brass. The only jacketed bullet I've shot is the Remington 180 gr in magnum brass and it runs fine. The fact that these rifles feed such skinny straight cartridges reliably impresses me greatly considering what they were designed around.


Eric

[AJMD429]

Mine so far feeds everything well; lots of 'round nose' lead and jacketed 38 Special loads, some SWC's in both 38 and 357, and lots of rounded-contour JHP's in 357, weights 125 and 158 and 170 and 180 in the 357 and probably all 158 or so in the 38 Special.

[Newtmaker]

Mine was slicked up with Nate "Kiowa" Jone's dvd and parts help. It will feed anything I put in it and most of the time is very accurate. When it isn't, it's my fault

Walt

[Old Ironsights]

Mine was slicked up with Nate "Kiowa" Jone's dvd and parts help. It will feed anything I put in it and most of the time is very accurate. When it isn't, it's my fault

Walt

This.

[66GTO]

I have one the first Taurus built Rossi 92's that feeds everything I've put in it so far, including Keith style SWC, both .357 and .38 Spcl. It is bone stock, although I bought a new ejector spring from Steve Young that I have yet to install.

I had an older Rossi 92 in .44 Magnum that didn't like to chamber Keith style SWC and 300 grain bullets, but I have no complaints with the Taurus built .357 Model 92.

[COSteve]

Done

[flightsimmer]

(Quote) Bullet shape doesn't seem to matter much with it although I haven't tried wadcutters that are flush with the case mouth. (/quote)

Wadcutters are definitely too short to cycle through the action, I've tried them, they jam up two at a time in the elevator. But if you load them in the elevator by hand, mine will insert them into the chamber OK.

What I am trying to discover is, what is it in particular that allows one Rossi '92, 38/357 to do what other Rossi 38/357 '92's don't seem to be able to do? It seems that if the rear of the case came up just a little bit higher in the guide, it would be at a better angle to slide into the chamber being it is a straight walled case but I'm to chicken to try cutting away any metal to find out. But I do know that it is the steeper angle that causes the bullet to bind when entering the chamber mouth.

I have studied my '92 action for a long time and I agree very much that a bottle necked round like a 38-40 would feed very,very well, I wish I had one but Rossi does not offer one yet that I know of and besides I really like the 38/357 better anyway.
So that is my quest.

I am trying find any make of lever action rifle in 38/357, 44 Mag, 45 Colt or any stright walled pistol cartridge that uses a positive feed system on the case rim?

[jnyork]

Mine was slicked up with Nate "Kiowa" Jone's dvd and parts help. It will feed anything I put in it and most of the time is very accurate. When it isn't, it's my fault

Walt

This will help immensly. Also, try a Lee Factory Crimp die. I had the exact feeding problem with mine and the Lee die made it go away completely. I shoot 125 grain Berry's plated bullets.

[2571]

I had Nate tune mine. It still won't even reliably cycle factory ammo nor my reloads in either 38 or 357

[flightsimmer]

I had Nate tune mine. It still won't even reliably cycle factory ammo nor my reloads in either 38 or 357

This is why I'm looking for a common thread that's causing the problem, I know there is an answer somewhere.

[Griff]

I had Nate tune mine. It still won't even reliably cycle factory ammo nor my reloads in either 38 or 357

This is why I'm looking for a common thread that's causing the problem, I know there is an answer somewhere.

2571,

You should talk to Nate about it.

flightsimmer,

It really depends on WHERE the jams are occuring; and what TYPE of jams they are. For instance, if you're using semi-wadcutters that are max length, and the nose is hitting the top of the chamber before the rims are to the slots in the guides, then you have two issues that are affecting your feeding issue; it could be the ammo... or, it could be the location of the guide slots. If it's the ammo, that could be divided down into either overall length of the cartridge, the nose shape, or the diameter of the meplat on that particular SWC.

If you just have to use that particular bullet, seated out that far... well, the only thing to do is to move the guide slots to the rear. This is a serious undertaking, (while not difficult), the law of unintended consequences is very likely to jump up and bite ya in the butt.

The length difference for standard, factory loaded .38Spl and .357Mag ammo is such that it is VERY difficult to make one set of guides that will feed all variances, reliably. It's why Rossi, Marlin and Winchester, all have problems feeding this particular cartridge combination in particular guns. Not all mind ya, but... as Nate explains so well, manufacturing "stack up" can be a tiger by the tail.

Those guns that get a good wide slot, located perfectly between optimum for the .38Spl and .357Mag, have a tendency to do well with the widest selection of cartridges. I had to move the bottom rear of the slots a few thousands of an inch to the rear in order to feed those 1.594" SWCs thru my wife's Rossi '92. And yet it would feed a 180grain RFN just fine. I seem to recall that they were a tad shorter, and the meplat was quite a bit smaller in diameter. (I just don't have any of those bullets any longer, so I can't give a picture or measure to show the difference between them and the SWCs).

As long as the cartridge stop is working positively, double feeding isn't an issue. So moving the slot slightly rearward to allow the rim up into the slot earlier will give you a bit better approach angle on the chamber. But, and it's a big'un... that will also lessen the control on the shorter .38Spls, as their rims may come up before the nose is started into the chamber. It may allow the nose to hit the end of the breech; and THAT will spoil feeding reliably.

It is still my recommendation that you dump the SWCs and get rounds that have a RFN bullet. SWCs are great in revolvers, and give a nice round hole in paper targets, but they just don't reliably feed well in stock semi-autos or leverguns. Just like a 1911, the Marlin & Winchester models that use an angled carrier require a bullet shape that can make that transistion between an angle and back to horizontal into the chamber.

[flightsimmer]

Thanks Griff, I understand what your saying.
I love solving problems and figuring things out with or without help and I like the '92 both to work on and use. It's a very handy rifle/carbine.

[Panzercat]

This is why I'm looking for a common thread that's causing the problem, I know there is an answer somewhere.

It's called QC failure. If you want to roll the dice on a rifle and buy a project, get a Rossi level. People get em good, people get em bad. I've seen enough threads on both plus my own experience never to take a chance again.

[Old Ironsights]

I had Nate tune mine. It still won't even reliably cycle factory ammo nor my reloads in either 38 or 357

This is why I'm looking for a common thread that's causing the problem, I know there is an answer somewhere.

2571,

You should talk to Nate about it....

Holy crudlings Batman... Absolutely talk to NKJ about it...

I ordered mine directly from him with the "race ready" package. It will feed rocks.

Something ain't right. Call him pronto.

[retmech]

It's called QC failure. If you want to roll the dice on a rifle and buy a project, get a Rossi level. People get em good, people get em bad. I've seen enough threads on both plus my own experience never to take a chance again.

I'm not sure that the "level" makes any difference. Had a friend buy a Marlin 94 a few years back and right out of the box it wouldn't feed anything. My Winchester 94 AE .357 taught me all I ever want to know about 94's and how they work. Right off the bat it was feeding rounds under the lifter and there were other problems after that. My 2 Rossi 92's have been trouble free from the git-go and both have literally 1000's of rounds through them! I think it's a c##p shoot no matter what level you play at.

[44-40 Willy]

It's called QC failure. If you want to roll the dice on a rifle and buy a project, get a Rossi level. People get em good, people get em bad. I've seen enough threads on both plus my own experience never to take a chance again.

I'm not sure that the "level" makes any difference. Had a friend buy a Marlin 94 a few years back and right out of the box it wouldn't feed anything. My Winchester 94 AE .357 taught me all I ever want to know about 94's and how they work. Right off the bat it was feeding rounds under the lifter and there were other problems after that. My 2 Rossi 92's have been trouble free from the git-go and both have literally 1000's of rounds through them! I think it's a c##p shoot no matter what level you play at.

Admittedly, my Rossi experience is nowhere near as extensive as my Marlin experience, but I've yet to ever actually run into a Rossi that was misbehaving after a couple of boxes of ammo. I have Marlins though.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I had Nate tune mine. It still won't even reliably cycle factory ammo nor my reloads in either 38 or 357

Ever once in awhile I have one that doesn't feed the ammo the owner wants to use. When that happens I get the gun back along with some ammo samples so I can see what's going on.

Mine was slicked up with Nate "Kiowa" Jone's dvd and parts help. It will feed anything I put in it and most of the time is very accurate. When it isn't, it's my fault

Walt

This will help immensly. Also, try a Lee Factory Crimp die. I had the exact feeding problem with mine and the Lee die made it go away completely. I shoot 125 grain Berry's plated bullets.

Many times it turns out to be ammo issues particularly the crimp. A good roll cripm works but that Lee Factory cripm is hard to beat.
Griff covered many of these details but I'll repeat some. The first thing to keep in mind is all leverguns are ammo length and bullet shape sensitive. The original 92's were designed to work with bottleneck ammo in the 1.5" to 1.6" OAL using a round nose flat point bullet. You don't think about it much if you are dealing with a rifle cal that is a bottleneck caliber. Bottlenecks always feed better than straightwall ammo, whether it is a rifle cal or a pistol cal. that's because you have a small diameter bullet going into a really big hole, the bottleneck chamber being much like a funnel.
The problems shows up the most with these short straightwall pistol cals. and it's even more common with cals like 38/357m and 44spec/44mag because of the diverse selection of ammos.
Just think of these pistol cal leverguns as if they are semi-auto pistols. The same mechanics are going on inside, just a different power source.

I had Nate tune mine. It still won't even reliably cycle factory ammo nor my reloads in either 38 or 357

This is why I'm looking for a common thread that's causing the problem, I know there is an answer somewhere.

Hopefully to your point, the other thing to consider is no two guns are alike. When these guns are made, the maker has a nominal size for each and ever parts that goes into the gun. But they will accept a part that is plus or minus a few thousands. Once all these various parts are assemble every gun will be slightly different. This is called stackup.
I have had consecutive serial numbered gun here. One would run even on empty brass, the other would not run on anything without some tweeking.