454 Vs. 45/70?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:02 pm

I've never seen the Rossi 45-70, what model is that based on?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:03 pm

Sigmar wrote:
harry wrote:If you want rifle performance use rifle cartridges.
You can't get there from here, 45/70 is just that, a rifle cartridge. 454, 500 s&w 475 all your trying to get to is 45/70 performance. Just buy the 45/70 and save yourself all that shoulder thump'n
So the 45/70 has less recoil than the 454 ?

Depends on the load. The .454 has to be loaded real stiff to match 45-70 performance, ergo sum, will recoil more. I can tell you from personal experience, that a 500 grain 45-70 load at about 1400 fps does not slap you all that hard, and penetrated 14 plus gallon jugs of water lined up. I can also tell you from personal experience that a Federal 300 grain JSP load entered the front part of a nice blacktail and penetrated to the back of it near the pelvis.

Jmay · Post by **Jmay** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:13 pm

I think the Rossi 45/70 is something like the 1895 Marlin or so I have read.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:47 pm

Sigmar wrote:So the 45/70 has less recoil than the 454 ?

All depends on the weight of the gun, the stock design, and the specific load in question. Either can go from 'mild to wild' in the typical guns chambered in it.

The only 'advantage' of the 454 Casull is that a given size gun will hold more rounds, and likely have a shorter lever-throw. You sacrifice a bit of 'maximum power' in return, though both are pretty stout bear-medicine (our ancestors faced bears with far less and enough of them survived to breed us). Both, in the maximum-load versions, may be pushing the limits of the respective gun designs. Pick your poison.

Even a 'cowboy' level 45-70 load isn't exactly wimpy, nor is a 45 Colt 'Ruger-only load' from a rifle.

Don't worry so much as to which is 'best' - just get one, and try it out, and if you get 'good' with it, IT will be Good Medicine. Later, get the other gun, compare, and start that buying-and-comparing trek that the rest of us are usually lost on...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:01 pm

Recoil? What recoil?

Even my girl likes shooting this:

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:27 pm

Well I guess that short lever throw and extra magazine would be handy since you'll have to toss 2 of those .454's to equal one 560gr .460 45-70. At least you can weigh em down with lead. Sounds like bear defense has turned into a CAS event?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:52 am

Grizz wrote:Recoil? What recoil? Even my girl likes shooting this:

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

Co-Starring my old, white pick up

John Y Cannuck · Post by **John Y Cannuck** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:57 am

Given the choice, if I were hunting from camp, I'd take my 1886 in 45-70 any day. However, if I were packing and walking all my gear, it'd be the 454 in the '92. The weight difference is substantial. Both with the rifle, and the ammo.

For the same reason, I'll use the 1886 if I'm on stand for moose, or my 88 in 308, but if I'm walking, I'll take the peep sighted 1894Win in 30-30. And yes, I've used the 30-30 successfully on bull moose before.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:15 am

A brown, silver, or white bear will probably never wander through my pasture, but if one does, will need to sort all this out I guess. I have the R92 chambered in 454 Casull and a RG4570B. I did have both a 1895G and 1895MR (450 Marlin 22" barreled rifle) but after the RG was up and running, I sold both. I thought I would through up some charts offering the terminal ballistic facts of my rifles as I shoot them.

A couple of notes about my stuff; I'm a cast bullet shooter but shoot everything at jacketed bullet velocities. To me "plinking" is sticking a "full house" load into a feral hog out in my pasture, I did that 68 times last year. The charts reflect a 330-grain bullet for the Casull and are based on projected performance as those bullet molds is being cut by Lee at this time. I feel that it will meet the expectations as cartridge is meeting or exceeding the projections for my 290-grain 45 Colt bullet that I'm using right now. Finally, I limit the RG to 35.0 KPSI loads. This is based on my pressure trace shooting with the Marlin 1895s and RG3030, and comparing the measurements of the critical areas that experience the pressure. As a comparison, I loaded my 1895G to a working pressure of 42.0 KPSI. With the differences in the barrel length the "G" would end up with about a 15 FPS second advantage over the RG with my TLC460-350-RF despite the 7K PSI advantage. With the big bores, it takes a lot of pressure to make a little change.

This is actually a very good comparison of the potential of the cartridges as both my R92 and RG470 weigh the same and have the same barrel lengths. They are both scoped but as you can see if you pull the hardware off they remain the same.

Here are the bullets used in the comparison...

The charts...

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:44 am

Very interesting info from a man who knows. One thing to consider there Ranch Dog - you are an expert. Jim Carmichael of Outdoor Life fame once wrote that he would make a considerable size bet that he could take all species of American game with a 22 Hornet. But, it would be a stunt. Now what you are doing is not a stunt but it is for the advanced to very advanced shooter. Interesting and with all your experience even the more so. Watching more regular shooters shoot 454s, 460s etc is another matter as is understanding the guns themselves.

What factory package will do the job being discussed - 45/70.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:39 pm

Thanks for posting this info RD

Is it possible for you to add 45/70/525 data to the matrix for comparison? Say 1450 MV?

Regards,
Grizz

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:48 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Grizz wrote:Recoil? What recoil? Even my girl likes shooting this:

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv
Co-Starring my old, white pick up

Yeah, the good old days, eh?

Wait, today is the good old day...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:56 pm

Grizz wrote:Thanks for posting this info RD

Is it possible for you to add 45/70/525 data to the matrix for comparison? Say 1450 MV?

Regards,
Grizz

And 560gr at 1450fps please.

I couldn't help but notice the 45-70 round that never went below 150.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:54 pm

Old Savage wrote:What factory package will do the job being discussed - 45/70.

Do you mean factory ammo? May be Buffalo Bore, haven't looked at their web site in quite a while though.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:57 pm

I can add the BTB Pile Driver but it will be tomorrow.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:54 pm

Would a Remington factory 405 gr be a bear stopper? If not Buffalo Bore and Corbon offer hotter options.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:22 pm

OS

I can't be sure. I have only ever fired 2 of those. I know someone who has killed a lot of deer in Alaska over a lot of years with that factory load. Just like any really good hunting round, it does its job. I think it could kill anything, but I don't know if you could trust to stop everything. Like a charging brahman, or a killer moose, or a grumpy grizzly, or a runaway SUV, where the CNS shot is the reliable stop.

I doubt that it would have the same performance against big bone that a solid or hard cast has. Just because I don't think they were structured as a DG load. But I haven't tested them either.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:51 pm

Well, here is what we read - a 300 out of a 45 Colt at 900- 1000 will penetrate a cow end to but some how a 400 at 1335 is not adequate - what is the deal. BTW, no experience. I have shot deer and antelope.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:01 pm

Old Savage wrote:Well, here is what we read - a 300 out of a 45 Colt at 900- 1000 will penetrate a cow end to but some how a 400 at 1335 is not adequate - what is the deal. BTW, no experience. I have shot deer and antelope.

I agree with you. There is also a lot of 'failed to perform' information around.

I think it goes to bullet construction. You can drill a bear end to end and it can kill you before it bleeds out. There's a big difference between killing something and having the time to wait for it to die, and STOPPING something that is coming to eat you. My hand gun load will likely go clean thru anything in NA, but if it doesn't flip the switch, then the outcome is uncertain. know what I mean?

Grizz

rogn · Post by **rogn** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:10 pm

On the lower end of things a 20" Rossi 45C, holding 10 rounds of 300gr bullets @ 1700FPS(verified by chronography) would probably settle the hash of any bear at spitting distance. Penetration of a cast bullet of this type is said to be very impressive, plus they can be dispensed accurately and quickly. These at lower pressure than the Casul. At spitting distance, I think Id prefer it over my 375 bolt gun. Just a thought.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:29 pm

Grizz - got you but - not really in the know, no experience. Maybe that is good - ain't been et!

Some like to say - Just sayin' --- I am sayin', Just askin'.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:41 am

Well, there was a trapper in Alaska who carried a 38 spcl to the crapper.

He disappeared without a trace but some years later a bear was killed
that had a face full of 38 spcl bullets.

This illustrates my entire perspective about bears and bullets.

A guy was deer hunting. Using a deer call.
Brer Bear jumped him, knocked his rifle away, and ate his guts while
he was screaming so loud he was heard miles away.

This illustrates my entire perspective about bears and their eating habits.

This is about all I know. I make every effort to avoid the nasty stinking things.

And I don't carry 38 spcl in the bear woods.

GN

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am

Ranch Dog wrote:I can add the BTB Pile Driver but it will be tomorrow.

I found my post on the Rossi-Rifleman where I made the same comparisons of my three 45-70 Govt Levergun bullets to the BTB Pile Driver as I did with the 454 Casull above. Rather than repeat the information here, I will reference the post on that site: RG4570 and Cast Bullets

The Pile Driver was shot out of my RG4570 at 35.0 KPSI, the same as the information related above. I never shot it at 42.0 KPSI from my Guide Gun, but I truly believe that the additional pressure with the shorter barrel would be any different with what you see posted in these charts for the RG.

My experience with a strain gauge on the barrel and all the computer stuff hooked up there is a point that additional bullet weight takes its toll on how hard sometime can be pushed. I personally believe "big" is optimum in this cartridge somewhere between 400 and 450 grains. That is just me.

A bit about the Rio Grande, I absolutely love the rifle. I own this RG4570 and a RG3030 plus another RG3030 that I had rebored/rechambered to 38-55 Win. Most know me as a 444 Marlin Nut and I do love my 444T but had Marlin worked on developing 45-70 based on the 336 frame, I really doubt that cartridge would exist. This said by a 444 Nut.

I bought one of the first RG4570s available as far as I can figure out. I purchased it through Buds as soon as I received the email notification. Double checked around and they were not available anywhere else. I had received the notification while on a nilgai hunt, a hunt that I was carrying my 1895MR 450 Marlin. The hunts I go on are hard hunts, pack in only and following these large fast of foot critters is a grueling task. The country also requires care given to what you pack with you because you will get quite a ways from the truck, usually about 4 miles. The big thing is water, lots of water. The 1895 is a lug. On the last day when it was time to head back to the truck, I seriously thought about pulling the bolt out of the MR and leaving it behind. Right there I knew I would sell it as soon as I got back. I am a fellow in excellent shape and will go head to head with anybody but I had gotten tired of the weight of that rifle. When I got home I picked up the RG and the 2 pound weight difference was huge. I immediately put both my G and MR up for sale and have never missed them. Been on these same hunts now with the RG and the weight never bothers me.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:31 pm

Ranch Dog

Thanks so much for the information and data. I'm very interested in the comparisons between the 425 and 525 bullet weights. I have your RD425 mold but haven't used it, I've been shooting Marshall's bullets.

I think a sweet spot might be around 475 gr, half way between. I shot fifty or so 460 gr bullets and my son took a deer with that load. The gun liked it except that the rounded ogive didn't feed very well in my Marlins. That's when I met the piledriver.

In the data charts the 425 and 525 data is identical for the Momentum index, the Taylor index and the Thornily Stopping Power index. This surprises me because I have pen tested these bullet weights and the penetration in water is not nearly equal.

The video linked above is a 525 gr piledriver running from a guide gun at about the same velocity as your tested load. It stopped in the 12th jug.

I shot a 425 gr piledriver jr at 1963 fps into the same jug set up and penetrated 8 jugs, about a 33% reduction in penetration. I shot one of Randy Garrett's 1850 fps 420 gr rounds as a control, and got the same results as Jr at 1963. At the time I was trying to see how those two compared. I don't know where that video is but it is around somewhere.

I have done penetration tests in fire wood with the same type of relative results. In my experience the 425s never penetrate hard substances as well as the 525s.

I'm not saying the graphed data is wrong, but there is a curious incongruity that suggests to me that software doesn't account for empirical experience. The graphs suggest that the 425gr is every bit the equal of the 525gr round. That it would cause exactly the same damage in large bones with the same carry through and penetration. Is that how you read it? Have you done any comparative penetration testing in media that will stop the bullets?

I just weighed a guide gun and with sling swivels it is 6lb, 15.8oz, and listed at 7lbs in the specs.
I have an 1895 tucked away somewhere. Don't recall that it's a lot heavier.

I think these guns and the 1886 are designed as saddle guns. My arms would be aching too if I was walking 8 miles with it.

Thanks again for the testing data, it is very interesting.

Regards
Grizz

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:16 pm

Every real penetration test I've seen completely disagrees with that penetration graph. I have some of Linebaughs early handwritten charts from one of his wet newsprint tests and the heavier slower bullets ALWAYS penetrate significantly more.

Also, better not run into an infantryman carrying a 20lb machine gun while carrying a 65lb pack for 12 miles and complain about 2lbs of rifle

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:22 pm

There is a squared increase in resistance as velocity increases in a fluid.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:36 pm

I read that, a hard cast (WW) bullet achieves maximum penetration at 1500fps. Any hear that or have done tests to that effect?

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:47 pm

Grizz wrote:I'm not saying the graphed data is wrong, but there is a curious incongruity that suggests to me that software doesn't account for empirical experience.

Probably so, the software only performs the formulas as they were written by the original author.

Grizz wrote:I just weighed a guide gun and with sling swivels it is 6lb, 15.8oz, and listed at 7lbs in the specs.
I have an 1895 tucked away somewhere. Don't recall that it's a lot heavier.

Same as my "G" with another pound added for the base, rings, and scope. My 1895MR weighed 8 lbs naked and 9 with the base, rings, and scope.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:58 pm

I agree that lighter guns carry well. I have a project B-92 44 that I would like to make into an Alaska woods gun, but the cost of putting a 1:16 barrel on it puts it out of my reach. Marshall thinks it would cycle the 405, and it does cycle his 355gr that has the same nose profile. I'm guessing 35k pressure would get a 405 to somewhere around 1250, maybe even 1300 fps from the 18" barrel. Is that reasonable, or way off?

My daughter has one of the older Rossi stainless 45s that is a dream to handle, but I don't care for the very thin barrel those rossis have. But then it gets back to hotting up lighter bullets. I like your approach of limiting pressures. I think I have that with the 525 load and I don't shoot that 425 load any more. I have one that averages 1775 fps that I think is in that lower pressure range you prefer. It's what I will use when I cast some from your mold. Eventually.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:46 pm

This thing is still singing that sirens song to my wallet...

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:31 pm

Though they are not cheap-------a 7 shot Winchester/Miroku .45-70 Model 1886 Short Rifle(about $1200)shooting a high quality deep penetrating expanding 405gr bullet at 2000fps-----------------------------sweet!

A lifetime gun to cherish!

ps-------if I have to take a shot at a charging bear at 35yds(myself)I am aiming right where the top of the neck meets the bottom of its head.(from all the guys(in the know)that I have asked about this say-----most guys over shoot their first shot(and it gets worse from there)they mentioned above placement provides the (higher % of a stop)for the average non-PH person.

Though I really like those 425gr Garretts------two guys I know(used to guide in B.C.)said(for bear)a bonded expanding bullet(405gr)45-70 at 2000fps is about ideal.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:43 pm

Me too! It my join my other Taurus revolvers.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:41 am

madman4570 wrote:Though they are not cheap-------a 7 shot Winchester/Miroku .45-70 Model 1886 Short Rifle(about $1200)shooting a high quality deep penetrating expanding 405gr bullet at 2000fps-----------------------------sweet!

A lifetime gun to cherish!

ps-------if I have to take a shot at a charging bear at 35yds(myself)I am aiming right where the top of the neck meets the bottom of its head....

If you have to take a shot at a charging grizzley at 35yds, you better be running that Miroku on full auto because that bear can cover 35yds in less than 3 seconds.

Jmay · Post by **Jmay** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:43 am

Ranch Dog I have heard that the RG 45/70 is basically of the 336 design is this true? If so is this a good thing or a bad thing? I guess what I'm asking is it as durable as a Remlin and while loading what kinda of pressure should I try to keep it under. I'm trying to decide on which 45/70 is the way to go. What is your opinion?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:55 am

Chas. wrote:
madman4570 wrote:Though they are not cheap-------a 7 shot Winchester/Miroku .45-70 Model 1886 Short Rifle(about $1200)shooting a high quality deep penetrating expanding 405gr bullet at 2000fps-----------------------------sweet!

A lifetime gun to cherish!

ps-------if I have to take a shot at a charging bear at 35yds(myself)I am aiming right where the top of the neck meets the bottom of its head....
If you have to take a shot at a charging grizzley at 35yds, you better be running that Miroku on full auto because that bear can cover 35yds in less than 3 seconds.

A neighbor was deer hunting with his .270, (a nod to the thread on which caliber is enough gun), when he was charged by 2 coastal brownies. He dropped to a knee and got ready to drop the front one when they stopped, at about 35 yards, and sped off in a different direction.

He was telling me this story while he was showing me his new Ruger 30-06

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:36 pm

Well Madman if you can hit that you are good because that is where the decussation of the pyramidal tracts occurs.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:05 pm

Old Savage wrote:Well Madman if you can hit that you are good because that is where the decussation of the pyramidal tracts occurs.

We'd give er a go OS

Honestly------heck both those calibers are pretty darn potent with the right loadings!

My weird thinking on the 45-70(having a few)was after taking a large black bear with a .35 Rem and it doing a real good job(was shooting 2000fps 200gr handloads----------thought

well, if that did a good job--------double the weight(405gr)bigger diameter and its going just as fast!

(though its not,kinda my weird suto thinking-(the square the number)

Don't have a .454 Casull rifle(but had a 8.3" .454 handgun until just recently,gave it to daughters boy friend)and it put a hurting on stuff(things)

I have shot with it.But that 45-70 from what I have experienced just hurts them things worse.

(shooting DoubleTap 400gr(.454)@1415 fps vs Buffalo Bore 405gr (45-70)@2000fps
Course with the rifle that .454 probably would be around------1565 fps????(still that extra 400+fps)I will take it!(for me)

chas-----------------I know(not much time)but I be doing what I can brother!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:16 pm

Here are 3 stills from a video that I haven't located yet. Started out the stick lay across the rounds and the gong was hanging in the space approx half way down from the top of the rounds. I was plinking with pistols and got satisfying gong sounds and some movement of course.

Then I loaded a piledriver into the GS, same load as in the jug video above, and whacked the gong.

In the video you see the gong wrap around the stick, the stick breaking, and the gong relocating an honest 3 + feet to the west. I cannot say for sure that a 454 won't do this, but I've never relocated a 2 pound gong with anything before. Although I have seen it completely wrap a branch it was hanging from.

Just in case, you know, anyone is still interested or curious. Heh.

03_11_ 036PileDriver_0001.jpg

03_11_ 036PileDriver_0002.jpg

03_11_ 036PileDriver_0003.jpg

what I'm listening to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0Pu1bxt ... r_embedded

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:53 pm

Jmay wrote:Ranch Dog I have heard that the RG 45/70 is basically of the 336 design is this true? If so is this a good thing or a bad thing? I guess what I'm asking is it as durable as a Remlin and while loading what kinda of pressure should I try to keep it under. I'm trying to decide on which 45/70 is the way to go. What is your opinion?

Yes and as my posts indicate, it is a 336 clone. I'm talking design, they do not share parts as Rossi made it to their dimensions. I made the choice of keeping it over my two Marlin 1895s after shooting the RG for 6 months, I would have sold it just the same if it did not please me completely. I have had a number of friends bring me their Remlins to work on and I would say the Rossi quality is better.

I load my RG to 35.0 KPSI.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:03 pm

Ranch what do the reciever dimensions around the barrel look like compared to the Marlin?

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:45 am

sore shoulder wrote:Ranch what do the reciever dimensions around the barrel look like compared to the Marlin?

Take a look at this topic: Rossi Rio Grande in 4570 anyone shooting one yet??

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:24 am

I reckon a 350 grain bullet, traveling at 2000 fps from a .454 will do just exactly the same damage as a 350 grain bullet, at the same velocity, from a .45-70...

Pressures are irrelevent, if they are safely and adequately contained by the firearm...

For heavier bullets, the .45-70 gets the nod, because there really is no substitute for cubic inches..

A .454 rifle is the perfect companion for a revolver of the same caliber, which will prove to be much more packable than any .45-70 handgun, despite the protestations to the contrary from the big guys, who think a good hike is a 1000 yard stroll out to the tree stand from the truck..

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:48 am

Buck Elliott wrote:I reckon a 350 grain bullet, traveling at 2000 fps from a .454 will do just exactly the same damage as a 350 grain bullet, at the same velocity, from a .45-70...

Pressures are irrelevent, if they are safely and adequately contained by the firearm...

For heavier bullets, the .45-70 gets the nod, because there really is no substitute for cubic inches..

A .454 rifle is the perfect companion for a revolver of the same caliber, which will prove to be much more packable than any .45-70 handgun, despite the protestations to the contrary from the big guys, who think a good hike is a 1000 yard stroll out to the tree stand from the truck..

Kinda reminds me of the short action .308 verses the long action 30-06 debate. The 308 is just fine to about 170 gr bullets but the 30-06 gets the nod for the bigger bullets.

I too like the idea of a pistol/rifle combo in one cal. To me the 454 revolvers are on the verge of impractical, but do-able. On the other hand, the 45-70 handguns are just impractical/novelty guns.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:28 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:I reckon a 350 grain bullet, traveling at 2000 fps from a .454 will do just exactly the same damage as a 350 grain bullet, at the same velocity, from a .45-70...

Pressures are irrelevent, if they are safely and adequately contained by the firearm...

For heavier bullets, the .45-70 gets the nod, because there really is no substitute for cubic inches..

A .454 rifle is the perfect companion for a revolver of the same caliber, which will prove to be much more packable than any .45-70 handgun, despite the protestations to the contrary from the big guys, who think a good hike is a 1000 yard stroll out to the tree stand from the truck..

All evidence to the contrary suggests the heavier bullet will penetrate deeper, and it has more energy. Doesn't matter on a deer or elk but it's a deal breaker on a bear IMO.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:25 pm

Note that I specified identical bullet weight in my example above..

While heavier bullets offer some marginal advantage in unusual circumstances, the scenario I laid out will give complete, through and through penetration on any bear on the planet, depending only on bullet toughness and contruction.. Hard-cast bullets are the overwhelming choice among hunters I know or hear from..

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:31 pm

45-70 can easily, even in Marlins, use 400 gr bullets at approx 1900 fps. How does that affect comparisons? Are we ignoring some good advantage here to include little brother as equal?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:41 pm

Guys,

Help me here------we are talking bears(not elephant or rhino)I have got to believe a BIG 405gr 45-70 JFN (I have Item 8B below)for bear(any type)
will give more than enough penetration while also adding addtional expansion benefits of a huge wound channel etc.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=151

Take your big magums---------jacketed bullets(300 mags/338 mags/375H&H/etc.)-----plenty!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:59 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:Note that I specified identical bullet weight in my example above..

While heavier bullets offer some marginal advantage in unusual circumstances, the scenario I laid out will give complete, through and through penetration on any bear on the planet, depending only on bullet toughness and contruction.. Hard-cast bullets are the overwhelming choice among hunters I know or hear from..

Buck I apologize. Somehow I read 250 grain bullet from the .454. I blame the tiny screen on my smart phone.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:12 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:A .454 rifle is the perfect companion for a revolver of the same caliber, which will prove to be much more packable than any .45-70 handgun, despite the protestations to the contrary from the big guys, who think a good hike is a 1000 yard stroll out to the tree stand from the truck..

I resemble that comment. A 45-70 BFR packs very well for a 1000 yard stroll, assuming it's downhill.

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:13 pm

Chas. wrote:
Buck Elliott wrote:A .454 rifle is the perfect companion for a revolver of the same caliber, which will prove to be much more packable than any .45-70 handgun, despite the protestations to the contrary from the big guys, who think a good hike is a 1000 yard stroll out to the tree stand from the truck..
I resemble that comment. A 45-70 BFR packs very well for a 1000 yard stroll, assuming it's downhill.

Both ways