HD twice barrel: 12 or 20?

[awp101]

A trip to the local shop triggered an urge I've managed to keep in check for a while. A 12ga coach gun.

They didn't have any 12s but they did have 2-3 20s. They even had one of those Stoeger Night Defenders (IIRC) that's parkerized with black stocks, fiber optic sights and a light rail underneath.

I've always thought "12" when it comes to HD because bigger holes leak faster but if I put my brain into "figgerin" mode, I figger at HD ranges the difference between 12 and 20 isn't much.

Thoughts?

[Blaine]

JMO, but for a loaded HD double, I like the ones with hammers.....I don't like the idea of cocked doubles staying that way for very long.

[AJMD429]

JMO, but for a loaded HD double, I like the ones with hammers.....I don't like the idea of cocked doubles staying that way for very long.

I'll second that, and up the ante; I don't really like ANY guns that I can't see the hammer on, if I'm going to keep a round always chambered...!

As far as a side-by-side 20-vs.-12 though, I'd think the 20 would be FINE at 'home defense' ranges, and the slightly narrower profile and lighter weight would make it just a tad easier to maneuver. Ammo selection would make a far greater difference in lethality than the difference between 20 and 12 gauge, in my (totally inexperienced in firefights) opinion...

[Mescalero]

At those ranges, the target will be hard pressed to tell the difference.

[Pisgah]

At home defense ranges I would figure the difference to be about the same as being hit with a 5 pound sledgehammer versus being hit with a 7 pound sledgehammer -- not much!

[rjohns94]

For strictly HD, 20 hammer gun would be just fine.

[Grizz]

20 ga yes.

2 shots no.

unless you have backup.

home invaders are equipped like swat teams for fire power.

there's no bluff value if you run out of ammo first.

[M. M. Wright]

I'd still go for the 12 and probably a Winchester pump and I shoot a double a lot. I even practice my reloads. 2 at a time and I know how to jerk the gun up and back to simulate ejectors. Old SASS trick don't you know. Works especially well with all brass shells.

Why Winchester? Cause a model 97 or model 12 either does hold 7 or can be made to with the short magazine follower. That way I can shoot til they quit moving.

[olyinaz]

Coach guns are for cowboy action and fun. For HD two shots just isn't enough given how home invasions usually go down. You'll need an ability to stay in the fight until they've run off or are all down. I prefer trusted high capacity autos that I've well sorted out, but that's just me.

[sore shoulder]

For any kind of possible defense scenario, the highest amount of firepower available is always the best choice. Even if you are really fast at reloading a double, are you wearing a cartridge belt all the time? The best place to store ammo is in a magazine.

[Blaine]

For any kind of possible defense scenario, the highest amount of firepower available is always the best choice. Even if you are really fast at reloading a double, are you wearing a cartridge belt all the time? The best place to store ammo is in a magazine.

+1

[dogngun]

My LGS has a cut down double 12 - a Stevens - under the counter for just in case. I asked him about it, and he says he prefers it because you can unload both barrels at once...

Man, I'd hate to clean that mess off the floor...

They are very cool, but I prefer my old 19" Mossberg 12.


mark

[sore shoulder]

My LGS has a cut down double 12 - a Stevens - under the counter for just in case. I asked him about it, and he says he prefers it because you can unload both barrels at once...

That's fine if there's only one, or two close together. Of course he prob has a sidearm for backup.

[awp101]

OK, that's what I get for posting at my bedtime and starting in mid-thought...

It wouldn't be my primary or secondary. Or even tertiary. I have those bases covered. What it WOULD be though is a nice party piece to break contact if it happened to be closer than the primary. I don't care how well trained you are, two barrels discharged towards the threat will stop or change the direction of someone for at least a couple of seconds. And if there's multiples coming from different directions the kimchee has already hit the fan and there are bigger problems afoot.

I'm considering one simply because I don't have one and there's a certain fun factor involved. It simply struck me that I've passed on a bunch of 20s for no other reason than they weren't 12s if that makes sense...

[madman4570]

You know what????

Over the last couple years---------------I have changed.
Honestly, anymore I prefer the 20ga.

Big reason------------

There is a vast difference in the guns carry factor(20ga extremely pleasent being slim/light)and comes to target very fine.

With the advancement of shotgun ammo and I am sure that 20ga also has a 3" chamber which is more than enough for whatever.
A normal 2.75" 20ga throws(20).25cal buckshot(balls) at around 1250fps(from the test I have seen for penetration into heavy denim layers and ballistic gel(extremely impressive) a 3" shell will be about on par with a 12ga 2.75" in that arena.

The 20ga also can throw a full 385gr slug at 1700fps-----or 1oz slug at around 1500-1600fps
Also the sabot from it I use are essentially a 454casull rd---(Remington 20ga Core-Lokt Ultra)260gr Partition @2000fps) (.454 double?)

If it was me------------------for protection in the home--------------------I wouldn't blink an eye having two barrels loaded with

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/636662 ... s-box-of-5

If fact that is what I carry now when I take the dogs out at night(double stoeger uplander)with a 3cell LED maglite afixed between.

Those .25cal (balls)all 20 when hitting something bad @1250fps go pretty darn deep and expand to almost ,30cal
Thats (20) aprox.30 cal holes(40)with two.

Enough for me!

We have bear----so when outside in dark in my carry hand I also have two of those .454 partition loads too
But I keep both barrels loaded with the 3buck because highest chance is something rabid or someone bad!
With the 20ga what will probably happen is while being used for defense you will also fall in love with it as a hunting field gun and will love putting it to use. I have!

But------- if its just about (max kill)sure do the 12ga or a 10ga

[Mescalero]

Start sending me tips on the 20's you pass on

[madman4570]

Ok-------------penetration (how the 20ga 3 buck(20 balls) did aganist the 12ga 00 buck(9 balls) in the heavy denim/water jugs
Click on page 2 (bottom section 20ga 3 buck test)and on page 3 (top section 12ga 00 buck) on link below

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

[BigSky56]

101, about 10 years ago a guy killed a grizzly with a 410 single shot at night grizz in chicken coop thought he had a skunk about 35 miles from me, about 5 years ago a 15yr old kid was sent out to the chicken coop by his dad for a skunk was a 350 lb grizz one shot from a 20 ga dead bear near Hungry Horse ( south of glacier park). small bird shot up close is devastating . a Canadian outfitter I know from BC uses a 20 ga dbl greener for grizzly seen his bear rugs and gun. I use a 20 for waterfowl to huns and a 410 for fools hens. danny

[madman4570]

Another consideration that influenced me at least to now favoring the 20ga------------------

Easier to handle for the spouse!(if say you are unable to be there to handle whatever needs to be handled)
yep, a easily handled 20ga coach gun and have her extremely familar with it.

[6pt-sika]

I had a Remington Sparten 12 gauge 20" hammerless SxS with screw ins for awhile . It was a very nice handling gun in the brush and on the skeet field . I much prefer hammerless myself !

The 20 gauge would be fine if thats what a person wanted . Myself I'd rather find a nice old SxS 10 gauge hammerless for the 2 7/8" shells , cut the barrels down to 20-22 inches install screw ins .

On a kind of side note I had a Citori Upland Special in a 16 gauge when I was eat up with the Ruffed Grouse thing about 20 years ago . That gun had 24" barrels with invector chokes , killed a pile of Grouse , Quail and Dove with the gun to say nothing of the clay targets it took out . Gun did very nicely with #1 Buck . This Citori was the only gun I've ever taken a wild turkey on the wing with !

I suppose it's safe to say MY sentiments lean towards short 10's and the 16's

[MrMurphy]

And a polar bear's been killed with a .38 Special (and a .22 LR), and aircraft have been shot down with pistols..



Just because you can or have, doesn't mean it's optimal for the job.

At inside-room distances, realistically with buck a 12 or 20 will perform pretty similarly, the 12 just throws a heavier load. In a double it won't matter too much there.

If you need more than 2 shots though, you're still screwed. Something people figured out in the 1880s, thus the immediate popularity of pump and lever shotguns with larger magazines.

I personally know a cop who put four rounds of 00 Buck into a guy with all of them being solid hits before the guy went down at close range. Also know of several incidents where a cop thought he fired 1 round of 00 and actually emptied the entire magazine.

Having a continuity of fire can be a good thing. If this is a spare-to-a-spare house gun, eh...it's your life.

I'd use a double if it was what's available but I won't deliberately pick one.

[sore shoulder]

Most of us here are very nostalgic about the era of leverguns, six guns and the pioneer era and use guns from that era for hunting and even self defense to sort of take us back there, and even go to the extent of believing those guns are good enough for whatever we need.

Interestingly when reading or discussing those people they didn't seem to suffer from any such notion. Malamute has told me of seeing a picture of a 1911 in a holster hanging from a bunk in a bunkhouse on a ranch. The immediate acceptance of repeaters proves the desire and need for firepower. How many homesteads survived an Indian raid because of a Henry or Winchester vs a single shot?

It's claimed the advantage of a double is being able to let go both barrels at once. There are several semi auto shotguns that will double tap almost as fast and empty the magazine before the first shell hits the ground. Personally I stripe my HD shotguns.
00/slug/00/slug etc. That will solve the problem of a large thick bodied intruder wearing thick clothes very quickly.

[Grizz]

That's interesting Frank. I've seen that mentioned before.

I've never been in combat and pray I never am, but in my mind's eye, if I have to stop an invasion, I'm shooting it right in the face. So if there are 3 of them, I'd have a slug for the center target? Not for me. My slugs go the magazine in when I'm out and about. My actual hold point with buck would be the adams apple, if I am in control of my faculties. I'm confident the attack stops there. I've taken lots of game this way and it stops them every time. (not with shot, with a bullet)

The reason that people survive or take 4 hits of double ought has to do with how long it takes the body to succumb. I know someone who was shot at point blank range with .357s, 38s, and 00. He lived and as far as I know is still alive. All center mass hits per the AST training manual.

The problem for the shooters? Wrong aim point. The other problem for the shooters? It was a vendetta against an unarmed man who didn't like them and wouldn't lick their boots. The state wound up paying in cash to certify this is true. A lot of cash.

Hard to tell friend from foe isn't it?

Grizz

PS: as another illustration of the point, I watched a video of a doe shot at 20 yards with a 12ga slug. It was obviously a heart shot. The doe ran away maybe 15 yards and then ran in a circle and then fell down and kicked around until it ran out of O2. Same shot to the head and the deer is dead before gravity is finished with it.

The fact that a deer with its heart blown up can run a long ways is the same reason that a methed up bad guy can kill someone after he's dead but before he knows it. I guess I'm saying that training for a center-mass shot is an iffy proposition. Better to train to hit the golf ball wherever it is located so that you have the shot if you need it. JMO

[sore shoulder]

Grizz, if you shoot enough things you will see things that don't follow the rules. I shot a rottweiler at point blank range with 45acp, first few through the body as it was running and I was in a pickup driving through a buffalo pasture next to it (it was chasing the buffalo). Dog stopped and looked at me and I put two more through its chest. Still standing. Two more to the head and dropped dead. 230gr HP. Thats 7 shots from the man stopping 45acp at point blank to stop a 90lb dog. Conclusion? Keep shooting till the target is down, and have enough on hand to do so, and realize that nothing but a head shot is a sure kill. At that point I was down to 2 rounds after taking out one target. I could have gotten the same results with a 9mm and ball ammo, and still had 11 rounds leftover.

I have a question though, was the shot on the doe with the 12ga slug a through shot?

[Grizz]

Looks like it's thru and thru to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9__QM4agkOk

I've made that shot on a deer with a 44 revolver and the deer ran off the beach and was stopped by a tree. The heart was literally blown apart exactly like a balloon that popped.

sorry about the Rotty

[awp101]

Well this has certainly turned out to be an interesting thread despite my addled original post!

FWIW, it's not going to happen anytime soon. Went back yesterday to check things out again and all they had was the SxS Double Defender. It's neat but not $440 worth of neat. Plus it was the display model and had all the cosmetic damage that goes with that job.